Ultra changes (location test)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
341

Ultra 2 at five frames probably won’t stay, although we can dream.
CH cr.lp into Ultra 2 is just gimmicky, you can’t really react to the counter-hit. If you know they were going to mash buttons, then the U2 by itself would have done the job. Plus, it’s risky as ****, being 1-frame link and all (that’s not even confirmable.)
Cosmic Heel needs a change. Probably an increase to the blockstun by 1 is fine, perhaps a hitbox change if they refuse to increase blockstun (although the move is prime focus bait anyway).

Honestly, Vega doesn’t even need nerfs to the current build, especially when you compare it to the batshit-insane buffs the rest of the cast is getting. (WTF Juri/Ken matchup!?)
At the very least, USF4 Vega should keep:
-cr.lp at +5/+2. We need a hit-string that’s not a 1-frame unplinkable link and unreliable as fk. Plus, Vega needs the pressure since to make up for the terrible defense. Why should shotos like Ken get insane pressuring tools while having top-notch FADC-able defence options? Let’s not forget their insane hitboxes on their moves, which beats out Vega’s pokes.
-cr.hp, because Vega has not one ‘decent’ GtA normal whereas Ryu/Balrog have multiple, in addition to their superb anti-airs.
-invincible ex-st, so opponents can’t herp-derp and get free wins off knockdowns/jump-ins. This is essential if Vega wants to compete in higher levels, he needs something to keep people honest.
-comboable super (because being the only character in the game with a super that… doesn’t work on any decent opponent is dumb).

If he doesn’t get these, he will get demolished by a good portion of the cast, considering the massive buffs thrown everywhere. And, he will be remain utter shit against dive-kick characters, perhaps even worse.
Some Juri players are STILL complaining that they haven’t got enough, even though the matchup against her in USF4 already seems like a nightmare.
We suffered for 4 years, at least let us be viable in tourney play.

People should not be comparing USF4 Vega the to v.2012 cast. They should be comparing USF4 Vega to the rest of the USF4 cast.
I might get flack for this, but even if USF4 Vega were put in v.2012, he’d be only decent at best. I’d still place my money on Cammy/Akuma/Yun/Seth/Ken etc. characters with actual strong shit and setups.

342

What Jozhear said at the end, about Hugo, Poison, etc.

I blame Jozhear for Hugo! CCG actually stands for Capcom Gaming.

Also I highly doubt Vega is that good, look at Ken… and it’s normal for a Bison player to complain about Vega. I hate fighting Vega when I use Bison. I wanna pick up the character again, in 2012 there’s just no reason for me to use him over Bison. Always loved the character, but I’m not prepared to get pressured to death.

343

That’s the reason I argued so hard against the vega EX-ST changes. He felt like a completely different character than the rest of the cast, and the only character who was fun to play after a month. I started with Sak in 09, where at high level every match was grinding to a halt because of the power of the FADC -> ult in vanilla, and was on my verge of quitting SF. Then I really put the groundwork into Vega, and things were happening FAST every game. The pace was totally different compared to most characters, and it was actually fun! I took time to analyze why this was happening and it seemed to be because of the uncertainty of the jump game, more characters were tempted and forced to make more risky aggressive moves much more often, in a game that is almost as slow as CvS2 for other matchups that is something.

If Vega gets his EX-ST out there and it is as good an AA as it might be, I won’t cry anything, but it will be sad to see such an interesting character and playstyle removed from the game in favor of greater homogeneity. Alas, at least the voice of the counter argument will have been out there on the American side as well.

344

Vega needs EX ST to be a competitive pick in USF4. A lot of other characters are getting crazy buffs, and I really doubt Capcom has any intention of nerfing Yang, Oni, Evil Ryu, Juri, Gouken, Guy, Guile, Chun-Li etc. If Vega doesn’t get a viable reversal/anti-air option, he’s going right back to being one of the worst characters in the game. Probably the worst one not named Dan, but for real this time and not just because Wong is biased as a Rufus player.

This post probably just sounds like someone bitter that Vega came so close to being stupid top-tier, but I’m frankly just fucking sick with letting shitty players get away with murder because I have no anti-airs. The world’s stupidest, scrubbiest jumps are excellent Vega counterplays. Vega has mostly disadvantage matchups because he gets beaten by a button that every characters has: up-forward. As a footsie character with no good AAs, being Vega means that you’re constantly in high-risk, low-reward situations.

I once lost a winners finals match to a Balrog (a great one, mind you) because I spent the whole round spacing myself carefully so that I could AA with s.HK. He finally got impatient and was just like fuck it I’m jumpin. So he jumps, I successfully AA air reset him. So while I’m sitting there wondering if he’s gonna use an EX reversal move when he landed (going for a meaty would be a dangerous way to throw my lead with how desperate he was, last thing I needed was to get hurt by a derp reversal into U1 so I can take a ton of damage, get cornered and lose my mask+claw) he makes the grand, game-winning play, which was… jump again because he never stopped holding up-forward. The only thing I could have done there was be fucking clairvoyant and get in the air first to hit him with early air throw / neutral s.HP. And like so many matches, I got to sit and watch him slowly win because I’m powerless to get him off of me no matter how much I correctly block and tech because it’s Vega. It was a great match that I lost to a great player, but that particular moment really illustrated this to me: the key to beating Vega is give him absolutely no respect and play like a scrub, sometimes you just gotta hold up-forward for that W.

Stupid things like the borked up CH and HP Roll should go, but EX ST and possibly comboable U2 should stay because 1) the rest of the cast is getting retarded buffs anyways, it’s the only way he can keep up and 2) after dealing with this kind of shit for half a decade, Vega deserves to be top-tier for once, just for a moment before he gets nerfed in a patch anyways.

If Vega doesn’t have at least 4 invinicibility frames on EX ST so that he can have a basic AA/reversal tool that literally every character but him has, I’ll probably just play someone else. Maybe Rolento or Elena, two other footsie characters that don’t lack for basic tools needed to win. Or maybe Guile, Chun-Li or Dhalsim, three characters that control the ground MUCH harder than Vega and have NEVER lacked anti-air tools. And they’re all getting crazy buffs too! They get everything but Vega can’t have an invincible anti-air that he needs to commit to holding D/B to use that gets crushed by crossups anyways because Capcom has been afraid of Vega being a good character since the beta of vanilla SF4.

345

U2 being 5 fr. is not necessary, we can menage with 6 fr. Not comboable from jab but fast. But other than that, I personally do not want any of the buffs taken away. Especially jab and ex.st buffs. I can also add the super hitting going to the wall as I have a personal connection with that buff, as I was the one to suggest that change on unity :slight_smile:

He wont be godlike with these changes. I don’t understand people’s fear of Vega. They just hate the char, thats all. We all know how much hatred our beloved has on him. On the contrary if they ruin his CH, he will stay bottom-mid tier even if these buffs stay. CH is his most essential move for me after cr.mp.

On the other hand, Ken needs to lose some of those buff asap.

Anyway, whats the fr. advantage on ex.rcf on hit now btw if its +4 on block?

346

Enough to Ultra after likely.

I really like the +2 on hit crouch lp buff.

347

  • Why expand the hitbox on CH lower than higher to allow for easier CH to Ultra

  • cLP x4 to U2 is 390

Good to see ya posting again,

  • Got any tips on how to hit confirm a jab? Cause I sure as hell can’t. Let alone both hit confirm AND identify its a counterhit. Even if I expect the counterhit.

  • I don’t feel the connection you feel. For me I’ve always felt an allure about Spanish culture (however not Spanish derivative cultures like Philippino, or Mexican) and history. So for me the character, stage, and BGM were the best in the game. When he finally became playable I lost interest in pretty much the rest of the cast. Walking the streets of Barcelona, and travelling around Catalonia solidified the connection I had with the character. But like I said, my connection is more historically and culturally based. Similarly to how some people like anime because its from Japan.

On that same token though… I’m tired. The Kara throw/frame trap mix up game has gotten old after 5 years. I’d like for throwing to be the accessory instead of the focus. But if that’s not going to change I at least want the risks Vega takes to be more comparable to the rewards he gets (herp derp jump ins instantly come to mind). And since I really don’t have the same level of interest with any other characters as I do with Vega, I’d rather just drop the game than the character. I probably take character loyalty a bit too much to the extreme, but that’s just how I am.

348

We may be a bit harsh with words (it’s Vega’s forum after all ^^), but it’s not cynism.

The fact is that, if most of us keep playing Vega, it’s more than likely we’re already having fun. So the fun part, and the… artistic part of maining such a character being fulfilled, only thing lacking is results. So we’re eager to see those, and maybe a bit unfair when judging reasons. =)

Anyway, nice to see you around, semi-densetsu no Jozhear. ; )

349

It’s already bananas. Anyway, 3 crLPs will always give enough charge and hitconfirm to land ultra.

Currently it whiffs on some crouch techs that make the characters go low profile, killing the purpose of the move.
It also whiffs on about 9 characters when they are crouching and you meant to do a really well spaced CH. So you are punished big time instead of being able to pressure when you spaced correctly.
A better hitbox downwards would fix both of these problems.

A better hitbox upward would only allow and easiear CH to Ultra in very, very rare situations. Its not like you are going to react to a jump in with a 14f move and when it comes out you are still below them to feel the need of a better hitbox upwards. You can only AA with CH when they made a really bad jump, your CH will usually hit their heads. So it doesn’t seems to be a solid buff.
We try to AA with CH because we are stubborns. The move has 14f of startup and no hitbox that resemble an AA. The move clearly was not created to be used like that.

350

Right side of the screen I’m guessing? Sometimes the Vega gets pushed away from the wall in a manner I don’t fully understand. Generally though you want to hit with the slash when the opponent is about halfway through their descent. Left side of the screen, that problem where Vega gets pushed away from the wall never happens, but on the right side, yeah it does happen sometimes. not sure why. that could be the cause of your problem.

As for ‘abandoning’, well, dude I worked REALLY hard on Vega for a long time. It got to a point I wasn’t satisfied with the return I was getting out of the game and just decided to focus on other things.

Gameplay in SF4, like musicianship / writing, is borrowed from other people for them to carry on. I think there was a time Tatsu was best Vega, then I was, then Zeus, and now Chris King. although I believe Zeus is still in the mix. We all take things from each other to learn from and bring the gameplay forward. I didn’t abandon anyone, I just passed the torch, I guess.

351

390? Almost seems like a waste of an Ultra since if you do it raw when catching an opponent you’ll get more damage. On top of that, doesn’t combo into EX FBA net you 200 to 300?

What’s the problem here then? EDIT On top of that, I actually want them feeling that pressure that I’ll confirm into Ultra, make them shit their pants and play the blocking game, too. Give them a reason to not just throw shit out. They should sweat balls playing us, lol. Having that extra danger to the poking game will be an excellent tool for the mind game to have. That actually reminds me of ST Ryu. Soon as he gets super, you better not throw out a fireball, or you’ll eat super. It adds a shit ton to the meta game completely changing the match, opponents have to respect it, just like ST Ryu when he gets super. No one bitches about it in ST, it’s part of the game.*

I also completely agree about that last bit. If he won’t be competitive then I don’t think I’m going to play this game even casually with friends since it’s frustrating to get derp jumped on and forced to block for the rest of the match because I AA with s.HK and they jump again which is then over my s.HK range and of course, I have no db charge or even a good tool to AA with at the point. Maybe I can get lucky and have some focus armor and get lucky to react dash cancel if they don’t attack while empty jumping if they respond to focus. Otherwise, it’s block, herp derp, guess over and over. No way will it be fun to compete against a largely buffed cast if we don’t get buffed as well. I really hope they don’t take his buffs away, but I do understand fixing the odd and derpy CH crap. I still don’t see a problem with confirm into U2, I really don’t get what the big deal is about that. We need to get as much damage as we can before we get jumped on to keep our life lead. More options, the better.

352

Hmmm

353

It would still be nice to have a practicle way to combo into ultra like the rest of the cast for a mostly needed comback factor instead of using the u2 for purely escaping the corner that seems to be the only useful thing it can do in the spur of the moment…

I do realize that currently Guile ultra is difficult to use in the right moment unless you have the reactions and skills like Dieminion and Bison surely got some really bad ultras you never. I guess capcom is trying to fix them.

354

Vega is a weird character in this game. The dev team is terrified of him.

355

They’re obviously sexually intimidated.

356

sHK is only good in situations where ST would have worked but you didn’t have charge, or as an “OS” after a stand tech/throw. Better to use air throw, njHK/HP, and jMP

cLP x4 U2 is 330. 390 was mistake. Looked at wrong note.
x3 is 354
x2 is 375
x1 is 390

This assuming no life scaling and assuming it can actually hit.
Edit: cMK, cLP, U2 would do 415

Edit 2: counterhit sLK, cMK, U2 would do 435

357

one other thing people missed about the 5 frame ultra is that I can punish many things on block…that in itself is already too powerful

358

I’ve always thought if we would be able to juggle ultra at the situations where we can juggle a hit of ex.st, it would be nice. Like after that one slash after exfba in the corner, or after hitting opponent in the air with the lp.roll’s slash or after a lk.ST. They really are suitable for that juggle.

Alas I didn’t think of this during unity character change suggestions.

359

Yea I meant like spur of the moment practicle ultra combo for that comeback potential also OHH NOOES Zues thinks cr.lp buff is a lil bit “too good” hopefully he didn’t tell combofiend.

360

Cr. lp buff MUST stay, it’s not overpowered. I watched the NEC exhibition matches and particularly paid attention to Zues. For someone who claims that cr. lp buff is too good, he sure wasn’t utilizing it much. Many times I saw him use cr.lp once, connect, and pause (a bait tactic Vega players use against mashed dp’s). In fact, his playstyle remained v2012 (conservative), instead of a more ULTRA based style (pressure). Had he used the cr.lp more aggressively, he would’ve performed much better.

I’m in the boat that believes, like Emmersion, that Vega is not a weak character in v2012. He has his shortcomings but for the most part, he is considered mid-tier. I personally don’t need an ex. ST, however the more options I have the better so if the majority insist on him having one, so be it. I will say with confidence that I personally don’t see a single character as a threat if his current buffs remain. He’d easily be top tier.

Combofiend did express during the NEC broadcast that his ultimate goal is to kinda make every character insane. If he manages to accomplish such a lofty goal Ultra SSf4 should be a well rounded game. At this point, there’s just so “if” factors involved, it’s almost pointless to hypothesize and debate on this subject. This discussion is both entertaining, and frustrating at the same time.