Says you. If they seriously buff everyone and revert Claw’s buffs to 2012 or even worse since they seem to have tunnel vision on wanting to kill CH as a useful tool, then no, I’m done. It will be impossible to win with him considering the buffs everyone else in the cast is getting. 2012 Claw will not be able to keep up with all the new character buffs, we’ll never get to keep anyone off us or out, and DWU will only… delay the inevitable! Zing! He’ll be too bottom at that point IMO, and simply won’t be fun to play with anymore.
…
Says you?
But dude. Calm the fuck down. No one said that Claw is not getting heavily buffed in USF4. He is just not getting stupid as he is in the current build.
And it was stated that Claw is not the only that was overbuffed in this build. A lot of characters will have their new toys taken.
EDIT: Actually, according to the japanese Claw players. If he stays the way he is now… then he won’t be fun. Quoting Kim when asked what they were saying about Claw “He is just too good. Its not even fun anymore.”
Combofiend always question other chacters but never question his favorite character oni who has the most buffs than everybody, he prolly might sneak in more buffs for his other fav makoto.
That’s bullshit, though, and kim himself is rather opinionated about vega.
I will only believe japanese claw players words till one of them actually win a major with the “not fun anymore” Vega instead of just winning casuals and losing every single tourney.
edit: Hopefully they’ll just put the SC at 6f, keep the EX st, cr.lp,cr.HP buff and fix the lp rcf for better meterless combo potential… I wonder the CH is flip flop error or something i really dont know they’re going to do with it. With other stuff fixed he’ll actually be a more well respected contender now in the roster.
Also im not able to see zeus use usf4 claw on twitch, did he ever use cr.HP and Ex ST as a AA?
Didnt someone say he was A tier pre ultra…lol sure.
Some people have, yeah. He really isn’t bad when he’s on his feet without a life deficiency.
Then there’s jwong and others who think he’s bottom tier.
He’s somewhere between there.
If you want proof, look at Reiketsu’s twitter from the day of the japanese location test.
Don’t know japanese? Ask for help for someone.
And just looking at the change list, you can’t see that Claw is ridiculous right now?
+2 point blank CH. U2 being 5f. crLP being +5. Claw with super dealing 500+ damage. EX ST being invencible.
Seriously?
I’ll tell you that: I will only believe that in USF4 Claw continue to not be competitive until I see a Claw player use another character and actually win a major.
Damn you guys. Majors have players that are in a whole other level. Do you really think that since 2010 there was a major that a Claw player was actually the best player out there?
All the others Claw players that were not listed in the post that I talked about the best Claw players have big flaws in their gameplay. Flaws that are not induced by our character and does not allow a win in a major. The truth is that them and we would not be able to win majors even if we mained… say Ryu.
Sure, we would have an easier time. But we wouldn’t be winning tournaments and we would be eliminated by the same JWong, PR Rog, Snake Eyez, Ricky Ortiz and Dieminion. Why? Because they are JWong, PR Rog, Snake Eyez, Ricky Ortiz and Dieminion.
Its also true that, for example, a Cammy player currently does not need to be the best player to win a tournament.
But that is a problem that Cammy has. Its not because that Cammy/Gouki are ridiculous that we deserve to be OP too.
They deserve to be nerfed, we deserve to be buffed. Not crazy buffed like from AE2012 to current build of USFIV, nor as slighty buffed as from AE 1.03 to AE2012. Somewhere around those two should work.
I keep forgetting that CH is 2 point blank and yea i agree that and the super over 500 hundred/5f u2 is pretty crazy and wont stay nor do they have a good reason to, but keeping the buff cr.lp and ex st is reasonable.
Are there any other characters that do 500 dmg with a super combo?
edit: Ok the reasonable things we know or somewhat know buffs that will stay are-
-cr. hp buff
-cr.lp buff
-ex st bufF
EX RCF on block buff
the buffs that are accident and non intended buffs for temporarly praticle veiw only that will not stay will be only fixed or nerfed or just taken away.
-5F U2
-Combo SUPER
- -8 rcf
CH
What would you want done to these changes to make them more reasonable to stay or what reasonable buff of your own to swap these mistakes out Haztlan?
I am calm, dude, where are you getting the idea that I’m frothing at the mouth? If they are seriously thinking it’s a good idea to nerf him back to 2012 and possibly even worse, then I’m done, it’s that simple. I’m not going crazy, I’m simply disappointed that my favorite character is going to be even worse against a mostly buffed cast, which will make him no longer fun to play.
I also don’t think his current build is stupid. A 5f U2 that can’t be combined into with a cr.MK is no big deal. So what if it’s fast, Claw is FAST, his whole game revolves around speed. The opponent wasn’t respecting our space? Fuck em, let them eat a 5 frame U2, they deserve it. Having a useful jab won’t make him god tier and EX ST has already been shown to not be the end gamer that people were worried it was going to be for a number of reasons, like, only 4 frames of invulnerability and having to have db charge which is easily broken with a cross up. DWU only means people will have to delay their pressure a frame or 2, and Red Focus could help us a little bit out of our situations if we use it right. Super doing a ton of damage, well, seriously, how many Claw players are going to wait for 4 bars just to get a 500+ super when we could get 200 - 300 for 1 with a life lead and hope to keep it? Why take such a huge gamble and wait for 4 bars? Super isn’t a game changer either, because most people will not have the meter for it, and most will probably want to keep at least 1 meter for wake up. If in the rare case someone does get to use it, chances are there was little to no damage done the whole round so doing 500 in one fell swoop won’t be killing anyone.
None of the above changes are going to break him. If you think these buffs are stupid then I don’t know what to tell you, because all of them have a weakness as well, and clearly aren’t over buffing. Are they good? Yes. Are they ridiculous? No, and no more so than what other characters can already do.
You think he’s fine as is, and make claims that the good players aren’t going to tournies or winning, or that good Claw players aren’t as good as jwong and them, well, what’s stopping jwong and everyone else from picking him? Gee, I can’t figure that out. Maybe because they don’t think he’s very good, has too many holes in his game, and will give up the possibility of winning if they choose him over someone competitive since it’s, you know, their job to win. I’ll take Justin’s word that Claw is bottom ass tier along with Dudley over a Japanese player doing the Low-Tier Hero dance and who isn’t winning any tournaments.
Its kinda hard to set my buff list right because I don’t know exactly how the environment will be. I mean… I know that characters are being mostly buffed. But… how much of the buffs will stay in the final build is a mistery to everyone. So thats why you are going to find some lack of absolute precision in the buffs. Anyway, those are my tweaks:
crLP being +5 as it is. +2 on block too if everyone is getting really strong.
EX ST being invencible for the first 4f and crHP stays as it is.
RCF can stay as they are in AE2012.
CH - An hitbox improved downwards would so it wouldn’t miss on crouching opponents when spaced to hit in the last active frames. -2 ~ -1 on block when used at point blank. It needs at least one more frame of blockstun to not be risky anymore while two would be good to apply pressure after a really well spaced dfHK.
6~7f U2 with a vertically improved hitbox to catch empty jumps.
Combo into super just gives juggle to Slashes. But then a damage buff on the slices would need to follow. I am not going into numbers because I have not done the math.
crMP gets its center dislocated forward just like crMK does. So its harder to EX FBA whiff after a hitconfirm and its easier to do crMP xx LP RCF. This one is HUGE and no one seems to point it out.
And here are some things that I consider to be more of a “fix” than a buff.
Fix the hitbox of MP and HP RCF (EX?) that are currently not a blockstring on Guile, Juri and some others.
clHP and EX RCF gets a -10% pushback so the crMP that follows wont whiff because of the hurtbox/colission boxes of some characters not allowing crMP to link.
The “Claw Throw” move is deactivated if one set the Personal Action to “None” in the Character Selection screen. Either that or make it so the input is a 360+taunt. Every now and then we see a Claw player doing it by mistake. Ranging from the 500PP guys until Makoto0124. You mess this up in a tournament match and then you have to go home.
The “Mask Throw” move is down+taunt. For obvious reasons.
EDIT: Removal of all SHC being activated by negative edge. Thanks Joker, I forgot that one.
@Moonchilde
EX ST was not used as its supose to be used in the location tests. You can combo U2 after one crMK hit confirming it. You can not combo after two crMKs. You can combo crLP U2, or 4 crLP U2. Hell, you can walk up crLP crLP crLP U2 for 431~470 damage. And only one of the links is a 1f link, that its easily plinkable. Thats not ridiculous at all? If you really think that, do me a favor and make it very clear that all of that is completely fine.
JWong did not knew that Abel’s LP MP HP TTs are throw invencible until last month. Why? He is dive kicking Abel since 2008.
My point: He is a Rufus player that lives in America. When I saw that list… hm, wait, this meme will suit my reaction better than any words will ever do: gif.
You are actually reading what I am typing? I claim that he is fine?
Well. I feel like a moron while typing this. If you did not read what I said previously whats stopping you from reading this right?
tl/dr: .
If only combofiend fav character was vega too to make those wonderful reasonable changes/fixes come true =’( also the mp SHC coming out by itself is quite annoying too. You can try tweeting or something this to him.
I know nothing is perfect but that would be the near perfect balanced vega in this game just right imo.
I think either a buff cosmic heel or EX ST invincibility stays. One or the other will improve Vega in a manner Capcom at this point seems eager to do.
They gave Vega some pretty insane buffs but some I think are odd. Like the conflicting information regarding RCF block / hit stun etc
C. lp buff is a design decision. I’m under the impression c. lp combos exist for you to get the counter hit with, OR just plink into c. mp or st. hk, cause that’s easy. But if you want 2 c. jabs in a row, you should at least hope you are getting a counter hit with the first one, because that 1 frame lp link is, IMO after 4 years, just not possible to do 100%. Well, maybe it is. That’s a freaking small window!! Better off to get the counter hit, easy 2 frame combo - you can even double tap it - then boom confirm into something stronger. Or, just off the first jab, plink into something stronger, but that takes away the option of an easier hit confirm (edit: easier to react and choose to do something more), into jabs which won’t have to lead into c. mp on block which, while safe, kinda stops you from doing anything but charging ST after (as opposed to jab, where you can run offense cause it’s +1 on block and fast).
Making it +2 just makes that once impossibly hard combo into something totally easy. Now, you don’t have to rely on the counter hit as much (normally I hit c. lp’s the most after doing a walk back move to punish a c. lk or something) and you can just pressure someone, knowing that even if you tag a jump-out, or walk-up, you can just easily finish the confirm as if you counter hit someone. It makes c. lp pressure more viable and gives Vega the option of having a faster pickup into EX FBA without the 6 frame c. mk or 9 frame cl. hp.
edit: to clarify further this gameplay has 2 big implications, the first is obvious: c. lp counter hit into c. mk. That would be a REALLY strong hit confirm on counter hit.
Second, if you’re pressuring someone with a move that has not that many total frames, if someone jumps out / gets away, that gives you more time to do something after you’re able to react. If you whiff a c. mk and someone jumps over it, you’ll spend more time recovering, which means you might not be able to walk under cl. LP from the other side. Meanwhile if you whiff a c. lp, you can recover faster and do a walk under cl. lp.
Really, the c. lp change makes Vega’s offense a lot better.
Now that I think of it, I asked for this very thing in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJfNAhFRUU
my idea was just that it would be a close normal and not c. lp. Having c. lp fulfill this fast, hit-confirming role is better because you dont’ have to be in close proximity to do it, and it’s faster than anything i had ever hoped for. So it’s a stronger buff than what I hoped Vega would get.
Time will tell whether EX ST invincibility is too much. I don’t play the game much these days but going back to it now knowing I could have an invincible ST is still just so damn awesome. Seriously, to me, after 4 years of believing invincible ST would be crazy, that still just adds a whole new dimension to Vega’s game that just didn’t exist before and seems super tantalizing and strong. If Bega got a 4 frame invincible move I don’t believe he would be want for anything else.
The cosmic heel buff is wack. Cosmic heel into ultra 2 easily would be off the chain. That’s not going to happen.
C. hp buff is nice too (Y). And if they change the roll I’d like to know precisely what they were doing. I think LP and MP roll are seriously underrated moves in the game in general. They do something not many other moves do on block, which is corner carry. Most of the time you have to hit to get a knockdown that sends someone flying or gives you time to walk forward on their corpse. Roll is a move that can be inserted into pressure deceptively and has huge reward as long as you connect. Mp roll especially, if people don’t quick wakeup out of the EX FBA knockdown you can still do safe jump with c. mp, j HP, cl. HP xx MP roll and get a safe, option-selectible tool that just capitalizes your advantage. If you’re really good and for some reason the jump in hits, you can just react and instead of doing MP roll, do HP roll with no meter, and cl. hp, c. mp xx EX FBA link for meter. I think a buff / nerf to these moves would be meaningful, especially to my game. I utilize roll a lot.
Super buff is crazy!!! I seriously hope that stays. Kind of follow their logic with this one, too. I don’t think there are many characters that can’t utilize their supers in combos. Vega’s is pretty good in certain situations, I know some of you guys have seen me connect with it, I’m not afraid to use it as meter for Vega isn’t SUPER important and a connected Izuna super is TOTALLY worth it, but against some characters (Bison, Akuma, Dhalsim) you literally can not hit them with super if they are paying any attention at all. So, it kind of gives the move a use it seriously didn’t have against those characters.
Well, it IS possible to make a read on a fireball, or devil’s reverse with super, but that isn’t a situation I would use the super in… give them even an instant to recover and it’s just not going to hit, you can scoop fireballs if they have a shoryuken / TU cause that stuff just doesn’t deal with izuna well, but give them a teleport and i’d say FO. Save the meter for combos or just regular izuna, if you’re gonna try and make those reads. The super buff basically ensures Vega can actually use that move against Bison and co.
I can’t think of many other moves that characters simply CAN NOT use ever in certain matchups, though Blanka and his extremities come to mind… Blanka can’t ball safely ever against some dudes, and T hawk basically can never jump against blanka. I don’t think it’s in the interest of good design to have situations like that happen. I don’t know enough about Blanka to know if it is ever worth balling characters who can punish LP ball on hit. And while I mention this, I just realized they already fixed this problem by giving certain balls knockdown on hit, so they will always be combo enders.
Yeah, the super buff makes sense. I think it’s a good choice. It’s not unreasonable, 4 meter combos with Vega don’t exist (without being retarded) and it’s kinda rare I have 4 bars if pressure is on my side. This gives Vega an ace in the hole when he’s sitting on meter.
Ultra 1 buff sounds cool, I’m down. I am looking forward to experimenting with ultra 3.
Yeah as I said, I don’t play much, but I am very hungry to play SF and I do want to travel some more. If Vega DOES happen to get buffed to being top tier, I would like to make a run at winning some tourneys and travelling to some cool events.
I still believe someone can win with a low tier in a tourney scene. Seeing Dieminion do well makes it seem possible. Bonchan just won Topanga with Sagat who I don’t believe most people think does very well at a high level anymore… I just think my investment doesn’t match the results I can hope for playing Vega. So, essentially, if Vega buffs mean I can cut a couple corners and get back in the game without sinking too much time into it, I’ll definitely give it another shot.
EDIT: I think, before, on principle, because I was SO into Vega and this game for so long, I didn’t want that aspect of the game to change because I felt like I spoke for what Vega really represented which was the unique brand of gameplay he brought to the table NOT possessing a viable reversal. Because I played the game so much I didn’t want what made Vega so special to be taken away, it would have hurt my investment to feel strongly about a gameplay mechanic and have it changed before my eyes. Vega has always been a character where, if changes are made, I am usually down and can understand. Honestly the first change to really change my opinion of the game / Vega is the delayed wakeup which IMO helps Vega more than hurts, but I still don’t really know if I like it or not yet. Anything that reminds me of SFxT makes my stomach churn.
I mean seriously, I still feel the same way though, Vega being a mid tier character whose got such a brilliant gameplay dynamic at the expense of being overpowered is just so much more important than being ONE of the few good characters in that certain iteration. Who cares??? So fleeting. The connection I’ve made with Vega’s unique gameplay will last forever. It is seriously not all about winning tournaments.
We all know after a certain point losing to the same batch of top tier characters you just get tired of it. Everyone hates on Fei, Cammy, Akuma, or at least, MOST people who aren’t masochists do. I wouldn’t know but from the other perspective, it’s entirely possible I’d get bored playing Fei Cammy Akuma were i to play him. Vega being Vega, every match was different. Unless you just shit kicked some noob, or got destroyed yourself
After all when I was arguing about that stuff in the beginning I had no idea I’d get sponsored and etc., I just enjoyed the game.
Now that I play less I’d say it’s your guys’ prerogative to argue about changes and create a dialogue, shitty and vitriolic it may be. It’s your game now. Street fighter and me already have a tight bond.
EDIT 2: Does ANYONE feel that connection when they’re playing Vega, as if they were writing a song or piece of literature? I’m a musician and writer, and I get the same sense of satisfaction doing LK St, HK St anti-air juggle as I do hitting a tight fill or capturing something powerful with concision. I watched that movie Indie Game and the guy who made Braid said some things I can definitely get behind… Reading this thread, all anyone is really interested in is Vega winning, or one of the good Vega players winning. No one is interested in the personal connection with something someone else created. Everyone is so cynical =(
Ah well. I’m still getting my street fighter tattoo >:[
I’m not sure how the EX FBA whiff could be fixed. The hit animation from cr.MP/cr.MK causes the characters to lean back and down which is partially why the knee whiffs on EX FBA. The other factor is the push back on those, they seem to push the opponent away farther than his other normals by a good margin. Maybe make it less so you don’t push them back and down out of the way, though I am not sure EX FBA would cease to whiff. I’m also not sure how that would affect the over all use of those moves, such as poking and pushing them out of range of hitting you, but you still being able to hit them with another ranged attack. With less push back, we get better combo possibilities at the cost of security, but hit confirms into whatever usually means they end up on the ground. Less push back also means we could combo ST without whiffing as well, which would be another option and reset situation. Either, less push back, or change the hit stun animation when Claw hits opponents. The latter is far less likely to happen.
I guess it would boil down to, do you want more combo possibility, or do you want safer pokes on hit and block?
Jozhear : it’s been a long time I don’t see you in this forum, nice to hear that you are coming back to fight more
Btw I have one question to ask you : I can’t do Ex FBA in the corner–> Slash 1 hit----> EX SC, does it require any trick to do
Oh, dammit. Thanks, I forgot that one. Its a really important request.
I said how: By deslocating the center of Claw’s crMP just like crMKs. You know that crMK xx LP RCF works way easier than crMP xx LP RCF? If you watch it closely, crMK xx RCF seems almost like a kara RCF. It happens because when the crMK is cancelled into RCF, Claw is considered to be further than when he started the crMK. You can see that by looking at the yellow square bellow him, thats the current center of the move. The blue/cyan one its where he was when he began the move and where he will get back to when he finish the entire animation. While crMP have all the squares at the same place, so when he begins the FBA/RCF he is starting the special move way back compared to when he does crMK xx FBA/RCF.
It would also help those cases when you whiff punish moves like Sagat’s and Claw’s stHK with crMP xx EX FBA and the EX FBA is blocked. Punishing Honda headbutt with it does the same. Aside from that, it happens very ocasionally, though.
Fix EX FBA to the point that it will never miss a crouching Chun Li in the corner is really hard. It would required the adjustment on the center of crMP and a improved hitbox as well. But that would mess with another things as well. Like crossup EX FBA and so on… but then DWU would make these setups even more riskier. So yeah. crMP having that sexy yellow square right under his head would be awesome already.
Lol im pretty sure almost everybody who mained certain character tried to drop the character at least once cuz of too many negative feedbacks then try to learn a different less hassel much better character, but it never felt the same with your old main then you go back to it then it creates this somewhat weird but good love/hate relationship with the character, I mean like i hated and raged a lot cuz of vega but im unable to switch to somebody else cuz its more fun and feels cool using vega than anybody else.
For example like Daigo tried to main Akuma lol but went back to Ryu. I bet this happen in all fighting games Jozhear.
Landing Izuna drops is one of my favorite things to see and do… sometime when i do the regular cr.lp.mp into ex FBA my hand lifts up like im orchestrating a band right after i press the last 2 buttons. :3
@Haztlan If you also look at how the move works cr.MP has a lot more push back than cr.MK so that is probably a piece of the pie, too. Really, if you watch it, him whiffing makes perfect sense. He flies right over Chun because she leans so close to the ground on hit stun and the push back in combination with it is pretty far. Even if you change the center, you still have to deal with the push back, since cr.MK also whiffs on them crouching when you do it at the maximum range possible, and cr.MK has a dislocated center.
Anyway, it’s all spacing, you simply can’t do it at maximum range but you can easily hit on about 50 to 80% of the ranges or so. If you are hitting at the wrong range don’t EX FBA…
Also, I never wrote you wrote that he is fine with the buffs, I wrote you think he is fine as is, which is the current 2012 edition. I wasn’t indicating his buffed version in anyway, I was disagreeing with you. I don’t see what the big deal with hit confirm U2 is anyway. It’s great damage, but a) you need charge and b) you have to charge db. If you wake up and get a jab (how does that happen??) then the opponent wasn’t respecting the match up and doing stupid things. It’s like trying to poke Ryu on wake up, you’re gonna get dp-FADC-Ultra. Claw needs stuff like that, to force people to respect him on wake up otherwise, he is just the same old Claw. Most characters would have hit priority at point blank anyway on wake up so what are the chances Claw is gonna hit them with a jab, unless they’re stupid? So the most use would be hit confirming off a st.LK right, into cr.jab into Ultra, or something like that? With damage scaling going into effect, is it really that bad? Why not then allow the move to combo, but make the scaling penalty higher for Claw then?
I’ve been playing Claw in any game he’s in since ST, so yeah, he’s been my go to SF character for a long time now. Him and Ryu, although I don’t really like SF4 Ryu for some reason so I tend to stick to strictly Claw. I don’t think anyone wants a win button you press and the match is over, I think people just want him to be on the same playing field as much of the cast. Same for other characters like Juri or Dudley. He’s not fun to play when you end up blocking for nearly an entire match because of a lucky jump in or a dive kick ended up trading, because at that point, you’re not really playing anymore, just blocking. And blocking. And blocking, lol!
Well, this is a Vega forum after all and I got the feeling that Vega players are among the greatest character loyalists in the game. So there must be that feeling you described among others as well, though you described it more poetically I guess 
And the cynism I guess comes from constant disapointment, you were the (second) chosen one and you also abandomend us. So what’s left is the frustration on the character.
No, both of them have 0.3 of pushback.
I would agree with you if a whiffed EX FBA did not meant a big, fatass punish most of the times and if the whiff on midscreen were the only issues. The thing gets ugly when they are in the corner. If you can’t FBA that meanst that you will punish the tech with 100 of damage? Its just not right. Its too much of a low reward for a right guess in that situation.
I said “walk up”, not “wake up”.
You said precisely “I also don’t think his current build is stupid.”. Which can only means that you think he is either trash/terrible, bad, meh, fine/good. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and supposed that it was the last one, because its more likely due to it being less embarassing.
I’ve made a pseudo wall of text regarding the buffs that he should get. Also, 3~4 post before this one I said “I am not arguing that we don’t need a better character. Of course we do. As I said, out of all those characters that I mentioned, I think that Claw is the worst.” and I still have to read you talking that I think Claw is fine.