I guess I haven’t figured it out enough then. I also hardly play mirrors, there aren’t many Claw players, mostly Seths, Akumas, Ryus, and so on.
God damn… talking about golden showers.
That one was violent indeed. And the opponent isn’t exactly a weak one either.
The thing about Makoto is that she can deal as much damage against down back (EX Kara => ultra) than against back dash (high stun juggles + resets), so as this are Claw’s most powerful defensive options, she’s not an easy deal for us.
But what I’m saying isn’t that she’s broken (though she isn’t very far from it ^^), but that I don’t see why they should bless some characters with such a powerful possibilities, and then fear to give a tiny fraction of that power to other ones. =)
Right, I don’t mind her having powerful options. I Just don’t know how we’ll deal with her buffs if they decide to take away a few of our buffs but decide to keep hers. If a lot of characters get buffs and we get nerfed, then it’s over for Claw.
Just for a little moment, I’m leaving Vega aside. The biggest change I was looking forward was Seth not being able to tanden engine cancel his normals. But although it was mentioned before, I cant see it written in location tests logs. Did it stay as it is, aka broken? Since vanilla I’ve been waiting for that nerf. It is completely non-sense that he, after he fails to hit someone, cancels into a move that pulls the opponent closer and puts the one who failed to hit on advantage suddenly and he can do it again and again.
Chris king best us/canada vega player since tatsu. Using that red focus really nicely.
Zeus and Jozhear are pretty good too now.
Chris King is the best and he STILL didn’t win even with all the buffs? I am sad 
What Vegaman said and:
German Luger, El Cubano Loco, Cuban Ace… Doesn’t take away Chris King’s skill but still there is a lot of US Claw talent left. Don’t base your opinion on just one stream watch.
I quite like German luger’s playstyle too. Agreed El Cubano Loco, Cuban Ace are also good too. Haven t seen much of zeus.
I think Chris King has the edge on all of them though.
Zeus is the most popular and most claimed best claw by others as best NA Vega player.
When i am reading this, it makes me think you all think vega is so very weak in 2012.
He is not the strongest, but he certainly is not weak.
They proceed to give us a reversal/AA, useable super, 5f ultra, easier links, good cosmic heel and you still think he wont be one of the best characters?
Even without the changes to vega himself, the system and mechanic changes to ultra sf4 and the changes to “vortex” characters favour the neutral game, that is where our matador is at his best.
Come on guys, you should know what this will do to him, playing him for years without this stuff… the pro’s and japanese are not talking out of their ass when they see vega as a huge threat in usf4 as he stands.
I expect him to lose that ex-st before the game comes out, but he will be good regardless.
Stop seeing a half empty glass in this character.
Dunno what to say Emersion, except that we’ve read this before, including from Jozhear when Kazunoko stated he was A tier, maybe one and half a year ago. Just before he did pause his play for some months.
I’m still waiting for a Claw player to win a major, and for me our players aren’t less skilled than the others. So the explanation has to rely in the character : contrary to what some of us do write, I believe too that he has a powerful offense. But his defense is one of the weakest in the game… so every defense situation is just harder for a Vega player. He has the double flaw of not being able to keep aerial opponents out (at least at the range where his ground game is at it’s fullest), and not being able to them off him once their in. As Vegaman says, all characters can perform at least one, or two of those.
So he’s not weak, but just weaker compared to others, imbalanced. Implying he has more bad match-ups than average, implying that at equal skill… our players often get beaten. Just my opinion, I do respect yours nonetheless. =)
Anyway, I do believe Japanese devs will have the last word in the end, and that iEX-ST won’t stay. It’s a shame as it’s not an AA (just watch Chris’s Loctest match vs Snake Eyes if not convinced), nor a dash cancelable reversal… but at least the frustration it will continue to generate will prevent him to become overplayed as top tiers currently are. Just having cLP +5/+2 is already awesome. =)
As chris king said and was confirmed by combofiend, 5f ultra2 and CH are not staying as they are in the test version, which is justified. So there is absolutely no reason not to keep the invincibility on ex.st.
@TriasNT As far as I know the +2 on block of crLP is not confirmed. And about the “at equal skill… our players ofter get beaten” is just a matter of matchup.
What hinders Claw the most are his bad matchups. He as a lot of matchups that are not in his favor. Also… he has about 2~3 matchups that are really, really bad. But he also has a lot of good matchups.
And people will put me on fire for saying this, but its what I see: Since SSFIV times until now, Claw usually doesn’t have excellent players representing him in majors. Not tournament-winner material. He was what? Maybe 3 people around the whole wide world that are good enough to win a tournament? I really think that number is around 3. But not all of those 3 are joining majors.
Its not news to anyone that if you want to win a major you need to know your specific OSs, your safe jumps and how to approach all of the matchups. You have to be smart when applying pressure and not relly on a couple of setups. You NEED to whiff punish a lot and specially: You cannot have habits.
Out of all Claw players that I’ve seen only 3 checks all those requirements.
I will take my time here and make my analysis on what I think about the gameplay of the Top 3 Claws in the world (in no particular order). Because… well, thats really fun.
Read if you feel like:
Reiketsu: His gameplay is beautiful, he zones everyone beautifuly. Knows the matchup specific setups and the correct OS to apply everytime.
But he never travelled overseas to compete. And also he doesn’t attend every tournament that Japan hosts. The one he does… he always makes Top 8.
Fun fact: Reiketsu plays a LOT of other characters as well. Kim1234 said that if he ever went to America to compete in a tournment… he probably would use other characters is some matchups.
Fun fact 2: He seems to never die with Ultra meter 
.
Makoto0124 : He is the Claw with the best whiff punishing that I’ve ever seen. Let alone all his setups that are… simply godlike. He has the best offense of all Claw players out there as well. He is really smart when it comes to know what to do to open up the opponent’s defense and how to deal with situations that almost no one else has a solution. But I really think that his defense kind of sucks. Damn makoto… stop pressing buttons! Its all you need to do!
But he does not join tournaments anymore because he doesn’t have time avaible due to his family demanding attention.
EDIT: On a side note, I just talked to Papatiwa (The “TOPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANGA LEEEEEEEEEAAAAAGUE” commentator) what is the chance of makoto0124 making into the Topanga B League. I figured that as they were friends and played a lot in the SSFIV times he could answer me. He was very kind to me and the short answer was pretty much this: “Not likely. He doesn’t have time to practice as he would like… nor the time to actually play all the games in the Topanga’s schedule.”
Zeus on the other hand, is a mix between those two. He probably has the best defense of all of them and its really hard to find a flaw in his gameplay.
But he is not goint to every damn tournament out there and he has become a threat using Claw only recently.
So yeah… its not like the character is the only problem. Our best players are not constantly joining Majors.
Take Ryu, E. Ryu, Makoto, Ibuki and Gen. If it were not for one of two players, they would not win majors as well.
I am not saying that Claw is as good or as solid as them… actually, I really think that its easier for those characters win a major than Claw. But I just want to make the point that Claw doesn’t have a Xian or a Thaitani using him and going to every major out there since… ever.
Xian has the execution, whiff punish ability, defense, setups, OSs, reactions and okizeme required to win majors. Same thing with Haitani. I can’t think of a Claw player that had of those things at once. Can you?
One could argue that those players do not play Claw because he is not good enough. That may be true, he really is not a confortable character to use. But it doesn’t change anything that I’ve said above.
So I really think that you guys are going to need to wait for a while to see a Claw player win a major.
I agree with most of this (besides it’s very interesting to read).
One remark though : one’s defenses only need to be as good as his defensive possibilities are. For example :
— if you do not have reversal, and your opponent is applying pressure you need to make as much guesses between blocking H/L, teching, or escaping.
— if you have invincible reversal, in the same situation you can double your chances or guessing right betwen throw/block, as it would beat both frame traps and throws
— if you have invincible FADCable reversal, you can even correct a wrong guess in case where the opponent did nothing
So that implies that even if Daigo’s defense kinda sucked, that didn’t prevent him to win as DP FADC corrected lots of guesses, unless opponents were too smart for that (that being before meeting Xian & Infiltration). He was also exposed in TGS recently, but I think he realized his bad habits since then. Xian’s defense is good, but includes some weaknesses as exposed while fighting Haïtani : too much focuses, and a lot of button press. But he could improve some guesses with EX Gehiro, due to invincibility.
Now if a Claw player had to face the same mix-ups, his defense would consequently have to be better than Daigo’s, and even better than Xian’s. According the others requirements you mentioned (execution, whiff punish ability, defense, setups, OSs, reactions and okizeme)… that would mean that to win a major with Claw, requirements are that much higher that a player better than Xian (which is close to perfect) would be needed.
Of 'course, none of us is that close to perfect, thus we don’t win. As simple as that; our character possibilities does compensate none of player’s weaknesses, while a reversal does, and FADCable reversal does even more.
But occasionnaly, we get close to it. Reiketsu & Makoto0124 both did lose a major against a Cammy player, and Jozhear did lose last year against PRrog’s boxer. That much close… that with a character a little more forgiving, I’m sure they would have won it. =)
What you said about defense is very true, but don’t forget that while Claw has more trouble in the “defense” department. He also have a much easier time in the “whiff punish” one.
For example: Its not like a lot of characters can easily react to a whiffed crMK from Gouki and deal 200~232 damage. Claw is the whiff punish god, guys.
So he has that going for him, which is nice. =)
Cammy is indeed a bad matchup for Claw. Reiketsu won against Acqua’s Cammy but lost against Y’s. It happens.
And when did Makoto0124 lost to a Cammy? I can only remember that Godsgarden FT10 against Sako in Super (that was not a tournament, or was it?). There was another one?
And Boxer is a good matchup for Claw. PRBalrog played better than Jozhear and deserved to win. Nothing wrong there. Actually, PRBalrog said that when he went to Japan he lost to every damn Claw player there. When I asked who where those players he said that he just didn’t knew because he could not read their names (I guess that makes sense ).
While I don’t think that getting beatdown by Haitani’s Makoto means that the player doesn’t have a good defense…
Xian played like ass in some rounds against Haitani. Specially because it really took time to him learn how to respond to those Tsurugis. But anyway, it was a single set in a single day. It pretty much doesn’t mean anything.
To sum things up: While Gen has an easier timing defending, Claw has an easier timing whiff punishing. So I don’t agree that to win a major with Claw you would need much higher requirements to win than as a Gen. I won’t say that it seems to me like its just as hard to win with one or another. But the gap really doesn’t seems to be big at all.
And @TriasNT, I am not arguing that we don’t need a better character. Of course we do. As I said, out of all those characters that I mentioned, I think that Claw is the worst. But the “Claw never won a major” argument its not valid at all. Because, as I discoursed in my previous post, there are a lot of other reasons that are not letting us see our spanish in the #1 place of the rankings in the first place.
I understand that.
About the Cammy players, it was indeed Sako (it was the ol’ times where I did not pay attention what kind of competition it was… but I think it was winners finals or something, with Sako then proceeding to grand finals against Mochi’s Sim), and indeed at Yubiken for Reiketsu. My memory isn’t as precise as yours. ^^
Before concluding, I will add that whiff punish is only a part of footsies, and that Gen’s offense as a whole does not seem weaker than Claw’s (specially considering the FADC mechanic on hands, or cMK Hado for Ryu, or advancing frame-traps of other chars). And that for me, CH is more some kind of « whiff trap » punishing predicted whiffs, than a tool fast enough so you can just react during a move’s recovery (unless real slow). Having to guess is significantly weaker than just being able to react IMO.
The gap probably isn’t as large that I might have implied previously, but there is a gap nonetheless.
I absolutely agree with your conclusion though, so I will just quote it :
I was talking about crMP xx EX FBA. Not Cosmic Heel. You can react to a whiffed crMK and punish it with crMP xx EX FBA.
Hmm, it makes sense. But then you can’t walk back to create the whiff, seems a bit weaker to me.
That’s your punish for crMK/tech OS ? =)