Focus works the best against that kind of tech. But if the guys like to jump over you while you pressure him then you can crMK to create the space and wait to see if he whiff his crMK so you can confirm your punish.
You can always just crMP the whiff. Not as much of a reward, but its the easiest way to whiff punish in the whole game. But you will be surprised as how often every player of every level whiffs a crMK here and there. Even with you crouching. It does happens.
Footsies don’t mean shit in this game, focus attacks, derpy jump ins, divekicks.
If you use a long poke and they guess and just jump over it you are derped.
Just an aside to this, I agree Vega is pretty good at whiff punishing (not 100% confident he’s the best tho). But this is only half of the equation. Vega’s ability to force a guess and subsequently force a mistake is, put lightly, horrid. Because of that Vega suffers horrendously without the life lead, and most matches Vega wins are more of a matter of how bad the opponent is (via making too many unforced mistakes and taking unnecessary risks) than it is on Vega really earning the win.
The more skilled the opponent the fewer mistakes they make, and the less risky they play… negating most of the effectiveness of Vega’s ability to whiff punish. Yet without the ability to force a guess (either by options or by threat of serious damage), Vega must rely more and more on the opponent making mistakes, the more skilled the opponent becomes. This coupled with having to take more risks than the opponent AND the risks for Vega being much higher than those of the opponent is a key reason why Vega has such a hard time in tournaments. Sure, Vega can win against any character, but look at how mush risk Vega has to take to win compared to the opponent.
Playing Vega is like playing poker… except with 2:1 or 3:1
odds against you.
Well, in my perspective, the odds are against you in about 8 matchups.
In the other 30ish they are not.
The way you talk it seems like the odds are just in your favor in the Blanka matchup. All the others 37 matchups the opponent can just not make mistakes, not guess wrong and win.
If thats the case. You are playing wrong.
Well I’m playing wrong then. Cause if Vega has something other than throw and a 20f, 70 damage overhead to force a guess I’d love to hear what it is. Maybe its just me but down back whoring by the opponent rapes me pretty good… in EVERY matchup except Blanka.
60 damage overhead.
Dude. His overhead sucks way TOO much. Its not worth using it. On hit you are almost always at disavantage. On block you are always punished. A focus means death.
And why?
For 60 damage? No, thanks.
i force them to react with kara throw and CH. the overhead is worthless unless you just want to kill or use it as a poke. dancing around my opponent with a threat of a kara/CH/st.lk scares the shit out of my opponents. the hard matchups for me is when i can’t actually play that game because they crouch tech with long normals. my goal is to force them the tech so i can land big damage with that st.lk or CH. kara throwing is used to condition them
Well that leaves throw… so how many consecutive throws can you get away with? Because against an opponent with a significant life lead who’s resigned to not pressing buttons and taking minimal risks (to include taking the throws since they do less damage than combos) that’s your only option. And I sure as hell can’t guess right 4-5 times in a row consistently in order to regain the life lead. At some point you’re going to guess wrong, potentially leading to a knockdown that can completely wipe out any progress Vega has made. And the more times you guess right the more ultra meter they build further raising the stakes against you.
This applies to every character except Blanka. Blanka is the exception because his reversal ex up ball isn’t a guarenteed escape from the corner and his ex rainbow ball isn’t guarenteed damage against you. This combined with Blanka’s offense being just as weak as Vega’s defense, and that Vega completely dominates the ground game makes the reward for a correct guess more than justified for any risk Vega has to take and in many situations the risk can even be completely ignored because even the worst case scenario is beneficial. In the same way that the risk of Vega’s defensive options can be ignored by much of the cast.
Well, just a reminder: It seems that I made this thread go off-topic for long enough.
I think its time to get back to the subject.
OK… so that’s why I want an overhead that’s +4 on hit and a cMK that links to U2 on hit…
Because then the opponent’s risk of ignoring the overhead option is 200+ damage at least forcing them to consider getting off down back and standing up. And if they stand up you then don’t have to have them press a button to link into serious damage. If they do press a button the U2 link becomes a hit confirm since cMK links into itself on counterhit.
we can only dream of overhead being +4 on hit. seems like capcom don’t like that idea…but i personally think that a defensive character shouldn’t have such a powerful offensive tool. as long as his defense is buffed up, i’m ok with that
I agree he doesn’t need both. Although its hard to see Vega as strong defensively.
My take is that an invincible EX ST isn’t going to win you matches. It’ll only make you last longer. The 2 buffs I mentioned will win you matches.
And those 2 options aren’t the only way to fix him.
You want a comboable overhead and a link of crMK into U2 without the need of counter hit?
Yep. Considering the startup, damage, and scaling PoM has and the maximum potential damage you could get from it, its fine. If that’s too much they can make it -5 or -6 on block to be fair.
cMK into U2 is fair since you have to be charging a significant amount of time before you even press the button. It’s not like I can walk up cMK, U2.
Besides this is a far more effective buff than invincibility on EX ST
everyone’s overhead startup is 20 frames and deals around the same damage. the only difference between theirs and ours is that on counterhit, we can’t combo. i really think it’s a glitch in that case since a meaty counterhit can’t even let us connect a cr.mp
Dudley and guys are 15… and guys can even be Kara cancelled. Overheads aren’t exactly general cookie cutter moves any more than slides are.
guy’s is 15 frames!!! o.O dafaq man…
You do realize that its 250 of damage from crMP~stMK distance and 12% faster than Boxer’s Overhead?
And 470 from crMK U2?
You want to kill a character with three high/low mixups alone? No pokes, no anti air, no whiff punishing, not even throw. Just three high low mix ups that require 300ish (the other 200 you get from the hitconfirms) of meter ?
No. One. Does that.
Dude, when you watch things like this:
http://youtu.be/XnU-61CywXw?t=3m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g5aCqgeWd0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yBBhrJ1R8
You think that they won just because their opponents messed up?
You realize the struggle that they suffer in order to get in? Usually 50% of the damage is done in the neutral game. If not more.
And you want to give Claw those almighty tools?
Thats why you were Top 8 in Cannes last year ? because Vega was good in 2012
That’s a pretty large overstatement.
overhead wouldn’t lead into ultra likely unless its got 6f startup and even then only on counterhit and only if buffer allowed it.
its at least 4 high low mix ups. Of which dp fadc still beats all options except block. This is assuming you even have the meter to burn. If Vega has 4 bars yeah the opponent could be fucked if they have no meter. I don’t find that much of an alien concept though.
-cMK into U2 is 430 assuming damage is untouched and no life scaling.
I’m not debating whether or not Vega is strong when the opponents press buttons. Particularly at mid range. If you noticed in those videos every Vega player used unsafe strings to pressure. Not trying to take away from the fact they mixed up normals really well. Just pointing out that there was a good bit of things gotten away with. If Cammy can do mix up into combo into mix up into combo into stun into death… and the majority of the cast has ways to force a guess from the opponent in addition to having a reliable way to both keep the opponent out and get the opponent off… I don’t see the problem with boosting his offense. That being said if other nerfs need to accompany the increase of options available I’m not opposed to that either. Most reasonable I can see is a decrease in damage on U2 or making PoM more punishable. That’s just my preference though. There’s lots of other ways to buff his offense to make the reward for correct reads more on par with the risks he takes.
I did learn something from those vids tho. I think I need to give up my refusal to walk back more than 2 steps philosophy. I’ll usually hold my ground pretty well but I got to see how giving up space can gain you more space right after.