Ultra changes (location test)

Difficulty getting a dead on over-head jump, and difficulty hitting a yet undefined and completely malleable upper hitbox are not the same thing. You could make a hitbox that is unlikely to be hit while grounded in strings, giving you a GTFO move outside of safe jumps, but in being a head hitbox it could still be targeted by jump ins. Backflips could easily be buffed towards the level of akuma’s teleport at least (backflips are for all practical purposes a teleport). Backflips are defined by distance travel, invulnerability frames, and total frames. Cut the frames down by a good chunk and suddenly you don’t have a brain dead punish on them. Backflips were fine and useful in some other SF games.

IF, somehow, even with well timed ST’s you can’t beat most jump in’s clean, then it’s fine. Luckily I’m sure Capcom has a team of players that are testing this, and also have access to things like hitbox overlaps to determine how good of an anti air it will become. But I’m willing to bet if they are afraid of a “vega tier”, it isn’t because that change only helps a little in vega’s problem matchups. He is probably murdering some matchups internally. Assuaging a few of vega’s bad matchups and creating a slew of horrible matchups for other characters is the status quo for forum balancing though.

I think it’s well beyond the point of debating, so perhaps explaining why it is a poor design choice is moot. The ball is in capcom’s hand. I think Combofiend is likely repping the give American “give vega a DP!” side well, and you have the japanese horrified at the idea recalling Super Turbo, so you are getting the back and forth.

Theres a vid on youtube I think that is made by BlackTooth showing pretty much there is nothing that can be done to improve backflip without becoming broken also showed that people would just have switch their reaction from the old speed to the new making look just as easy to punish it.

Linky?

If SF4 didn’t have dashing and Focus I’d be perfectly ok with no wake up. But those two things totally kill any chance Claw has at dominating.

A good example is ST. In ST, you can play o.Claw (no ST, so no wake up game) successfully because he is so dangerous. He can actually poke and not be focus attacked for doing what Claw does, which is poke and keep people out. He has all the tools needed to keep someone out. ST Claw with Scarlet Terror is really strong, much more so than o.Claw which is why he gets top 3 character in the game. Boxer, Sim, and Claw, are all on equal playing ground in that game.

In ST, every normal is usable. Every. Single. Normal. Is a great attack in the game. St.jab to keep people from jumping in at certain ranges, usable against Dictator’s head stomp shenanigans, st.Strong usable to trade or beat Sonic Booms and Max Outs at maximum range, st.Fierce to keep an opponent in block stun from long range. St.Short is a great move to keep forward momentum attacks like Blanka Ball out if you have good reactions, it’s also good for tick throw setups, st.Forward is one of his most godly moves that beats a lot of attacks clean, like Tatsu, and st.Roundhouse is your long range AA tool to keep people out from a distance. Then you have all the crouching moves, cr.Jab isn’t as useful as cr.Strong since it will do everything cr.Jab does with more block stun, but it comes out a tad quicker which can be useful for canceling to the wall. Cr.Strong is your bread and butter tool, use it to cancel, use it for long range pokes, it’s fast start up makes it hard to react to. You can use it to force opponents to block, which pushes them back, keeping them out, and then there is the fear that you can cancel to the wall. Cr.Fierce is godlike in that it AA’s many attacks and also stops opponents from jumping out of a block string. Cr.Short isn’t a very good attack, but if you score a point blank meaty you can 6 hit combo it into Fierce RCF, cr.Forward is godly for combos with cr.Strong, and on fat opponents it can combo into itself, and cr.Roundhouse is extremely usable if you space it right, though many crouching attacks can beat it or trade favorably. His air game is decent, and his neutral jump game will shut down many air and ground attempts to get in. Want to be Ken’s fierce SRK? Neutral jump fierce at a distance.

Still incredibly strong without Scarlet Terror, and the main difference is opponents either block his pokes or eat damage. No Focus Attack to soak up damage and build Ultra. Another obviously glaring difference is the fact 99% of his normals are useful. I have yet to find a use for st.Forward, far st.Fierce, or st.Strong in SF4. Why even bother? They’re so slow and have tons of recovery, opponents can just jump them or Focus them for damage or space. RCF has humongous start up so it’s essentially worthless as a poke tool or to escape under an opponent’s jump arc. Wall dive is worthless because of Focus or Focus dash, so there is no fear of wall dive loops on wake up. Pretty much everything that made him strong in past games is obliterated in SF4. Half of his normals being useful and only hit confirmed EX versions of his specials are any good.

I guess what I’m getting at, is that I wouldn’t mind if they didn’t give us EX ST, but they would have to compensate to make every normal attack a viable tool to use by making them faster start up and recovery and better hit boxes so that opponent’s can’t easily Focus or jump him when he pokes. They should also buff his specials, give FBA some buffs because it really needs to be faster and harder to react to, make it usable, make RCF faster, give us some chances to do some non-EX damage for once. Claw is all about speed but he feels so slow in SF4.

Then, and only then, would I not give a shit about wake up game, because if I play right, they shouldn’t be able to get in. This is coming from an o.Claw player in ST, so I’m more than adjusted to not having a wake up option other than wake up throw (throws are 0 frame start up) as my only option for dealing with pressure.

just give vega a teleport already! AIR TELEPORTS!

With i-frames on it, then. -_-

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They both have the same “0.3” height restriction.
The .bac files don’t lie.

Ah. Always felt Guile’s was easier to get out before ours produces j.lk, never actually looked at data for that one.

i always thought that, they FEAR our masked guy. they probably still have nightmares of those ST plays

Tatsu got top 16 in Evo in Vanilla using Claw?

Holy shit.

Japan is definitely shook as hell over Claw. Devs must have gotten bodied hard back in the day.

vega have invi frame ex SC - people goes wild , fear of breaking the game???
ehhh how about bison ex psycho crusher, juri ex spinning kick, guy ex tatsu, guile meterless flash kick, db meterless shoto bullshit

the game would be broken from the beginning =]]

Phew

I’m so happy to see that everyone on Eventhubs is against the opinion that his invincible EX ST will break the game.

Perhaps it is because they have seen their local Vega players struggle in tournament.

But realistically, I’m very interested why Capcom feels so worried about this particular buff. Is a member of their balance team completely owning with Vega at the moment? Maybe there were instances in Japan during the USF4 location test, where several Vega players dominated the match, simply by holding down back?

Who knows for sure.

Let’s hope that Combofiend can use those Email mindgames against Capcom Japan, and finally convince them to leave it in the game.

Best way to show them… make a video showing how weak it is

This is what i said years ago. Everything that made him strong in ST has been nerfed in some form or another, either by nerfing the move or mitigated by game mechanics. If bison has teleport, iframes on every single ex move AND standing HK then Vega at least deserves one of those things…Hell give him bison’s st hk because he stole it from ST vega.

But Japan are stubborn fucks so we wont see iframes in the final build.

Actually Bison’s sHK hitbox is even more unimpressive than Claw’s far one.

But seriously, are japanese people so afraid of Reiketsu ?

@Chritorisu

If japs devs are afraid of giving Claw a reversal, then please just ask Combofiend why exactly they feel like buffing THAT… =p

How would they stop that without reversal might be interesting to hear as well. =)

Dev’s probably have a few top level players in there as well. I know the guilty gear dev team has a bunch.

@moonchild - I agree with a good deal of what you said, although stand mk is a perfectly fine poke in SF4, I also use stand hp from time to time. And vega really, really should have a different roll that is as fast as Lrcp.

The best way to fix him up is to give him a number of decent anti airs, buffing his crouch hp seems like a great move in that direction.

Damn dude, if they don’t give us a reversal then we are totally screwed, lol. Look at that, there won’t be any way to keep her off.

@Destin I don’t use st.MK because it doesn’t really seem to have a lot of stopping power or seems too slow to make use of, especially since if someone Focus Attacks it, I’d have been better off using cr.MP to either cancel into EX FBA or kick back dash. Really, if they gave Claw normals that shut out everyone’s options to get in, I wouldn’t even care if we had a usable Ultra since I’d never need it.

St.mk is pretty useful. It’s pretty important in the mirror match fo sho.