Mashing is an element of Takedowns and Submissions, yes. We could have made the systems play out in different ways, yes. Again, there’s nothing wrong with you not liking the decisions we made.
But saying our ground game is all about mashing is like saying marvel is all about mashing; it’s just not true; it’s one of many factors, and it’s not even the most dominant factor.
I’m gonna side with sixtwo here, I’ve been playing this demo a lot lately, and I’ve seen many times using Rua, landing a clean jab as Chuck does a superman punch and still getting hit by it, sometimes getting KOed in the process. I’ve seen many other examples of this too.
I personally think the developers have made an admirable compromise on the ground game. It’s not perfect, but there is an adequate amount of complexity while still being accessible. Let’s not forget you can still perform reversals with well timed flicks on the right stick.
I think Clembo is being a little overcritical with it. Given that this is the first iteration there are still a lot of things that can be improved. For example, from what I’ve read fighters are all right handed so you can’t fight southpaw, which I personally think is really important. In general, I think there’s a lot of potential here, maybe if this sells and gets an opportunity to be developed further we will see even greater things.
Yea unless you’re going for random takedowns
The easiest way to get takedowns is to go for reversals
As I said, I just tested it in 2p mode, and while the Superman does seem designed to evade jabs, if you do it at the right range it will stuff him. I would like to see a video of a clean hit getting punched through, not an evaded hit. Also leg kicks stop them, which makes even LESS sense than a jab. At least a jab you could say you’re breaking their forward momentum with a clean hit to the face (which is why Rampage puts his head down, wayyy down when delivering his hooks, it’s risky but it pays off). An inside leg kick stuffing a punch the way it does in this doesn’t really make sense.
As I said, try testing it, don’t just say “well I think that’s what happened, or that’s what it looked like at least”. I tried it about 100 times with different moves and stuffed him on every clean hit be it a leg kick, body shot, or jab.
I don’t know what to tell you then, cause I know for a fact I’ve seen many times landing a clean jab, right in the face, head tilted back, so I know it landed cleanly, and their attack be it a right cross or a right head kick, still landing.
You’re right that a body kick or a leg kick will stop an attack, but I’m willing to accept imperfections like this. As a software engineer myself I understand how difficult it would be to implement a physics system that would account for all these little details. Also, given the time frame they were given to develop this and that this is a new franchise, I’m willing to accept that not everything is an exact simulation of reality, after all it’s a game.
Sixtwo I am seriously scared that I will end up destroying my analog sticks while trying to spin my way out of a submission. It would be a good idea to make it less of a mash/spin game when it comes to the submission game. It would also be wise to let people move with the dpad.
you can stop many attacks on start up with a jab. but it isn’t as if you can hide behind jabs, considering there are many moves that will just straight out beat them. including take downs.
and yeah, you’re being overly critical. the game isn’t bad by any margin, and i was trying to hate it, as i figured it was going to be a smackdown clone with ufc over the top of it.
the game is a bit simplistic, but its not like the average ufc fan would understand anything much more complicated. i dislike button mashing, but i enjoy that it seems to be done with some purpose. i dislike how limited the stand up is (especially the left hand) and it would’ve been sick if the L1/left bumper button was used as a legit attack modifier for more versatility. and yeah, the ground game in the hands of people who know how to play basically boils down to a reallly basic mixup game that i really don’t like. and i hate how you can counter punches to clinch from any range…
but its a game that has alot of basic fundamentals that go into every fighting game, and they make the endings of matches feel really rewarding with thier presentation. For a first go, it’s well done, even if you don’t enjoy all aspects.
and its just a demo…
I gave up on that “it’s just a demo” crap a long time ago. I have yet to see them fix fundamental flaws in a demo. We’re not talking about a minor glitch here, we’re talking about the basic mechanics of the game.
And maybe I am being slightly critical, but I also see a lot of people giving it a free pass. So someone needs to man up and point out the obvious flaws.
I think I used the word jab too liberally. I meant any sort of quick (preferably inside) moves. The inside leg kick is a perfect example. Chuck can’t do ANYTHING if you alternate leg kicks and clinches decently, with a few high punches thrown in to keep him guessing.
The thing that upsets me most is how some elements are spot on (like grabbing their hand when you’re mounted) and some are just sloppy. It’s disappointing because you know how good it could’ve been had they made the entire game without silly things like mashing. It doesn’t matter if SOME parts of ground game aren’t based on mashing when you’ll never get to that part without having to rely on ruining your controller by spinning that bitch up.
you also must have given up on understanding the game.
chuck has one of the best counters to the inside leg kick… overhand right. he also has reversals, and he can also whiff punish (high kick or superman). and this isn’t superhuman shit either.
you can punch your way out of the reach part of the grab, you can grapple reverse, or even go for a takedown.
that’s probably where your argument falls apart. all these technical problems as to how the game plays are pretty off. your aesthetic put-offs and suggested improvements are one thing… they don’t take away from a good game. but if you are talking about the game from a fun standpoint when you obviously don’t understand the mechanics, then what value is your word?
People are going to like it… its not a bad game in any stretch of the imagination. just because you see people liking it, and you didn’t understand what the fuck is going on doesn’t mean free pass to bash.
maybe you just need more people to spell out how you’re playing the game wrong.
and about the mashing… you really don’t need to be very forceful with your mashing. moderate mashing will often get the job done, so it seems… may be different in the full game when stats come into play, but chuck can liberally mash his way out of almost every sub (still dunno how to get out of guillotine… mashing punches don’t work)
Clembo after dealing with console shooters with far, far, FAR greater game design flaws that were visible in about five seconds, I have to say that this game is not nearly as bad. At least the control options present don’t present you with worthless configurations that make important game mechanics impossible to even use. (See Southpaw configurations in many of these games.) Is the game perfect? Hardly. Is it laughably broken like some games are? From the demo I am inclined to say no.
I respect you and I respect the game you made (even if I did sound overly critical), and I think it’s a world-class effort, but I hope that you don’t see this as bashing - if I didn’t like a game and couldn’t care less, I would just say “meh” and be off. Rather, being an MMA guy myself, I really want to like this game, but there are just certain issues that are turning me off it.
And my biggest gripes are:
[LIST]
[]Movement. There isn’t enough of it.
[]Controls. There’s just too much of it. (e.g. it’s not intuitive).
[/LIST]
I fully understand that you can start a fight, both at full health, and get knocked out cold by a good, clean, hard shot. That’s how it is in real life.
However, as a game, there are one-too-many issues because the game is (I’m assuming) largely developed around a math engine. But there are times when having a too-realistic algo can take away from the fun.
My assumption is that the game has something akin to a complex weight + skill + power + defense + moveset maths system. Wherein a fighter of a certain weight, skill, power, and defense, has a certain percentage of success in certain areas against another fighter (based on the other fighter’s stats). e.g. One fighter has a 40% chance of knocking the other guy out, versus the other guy’s 32%, based on the maths. While their submission success percentage may also vary.
This is perfectly fine, because it is a fight sim. However, the issues I brought up (movement and controls) turn this into something more complicated than it should be. Instead of me thinking about what strategy to apply and how to maximize my “percentage” (let’s say I’m a heavyweight striker), I’m constantly trying to wrestle the game mechanics, rather than the opponent.
Put it this way - even if I’m a big character, if my discipline focuses on spacing and striking (let’s take CroCop for example), I should be able to be a bit more nimble on my feet than a grappler, even if he is slightly lighter.
Instead, I feel (emphasis on that word) like a lighter grappler is beating my well-trained footwork, due to his light weight. It feels like the game’s algo is giving him movement speed that is on par with mine because of the weight calculation. That in itself is frustrating, especially with a lot of the moves being activated based on your range to your opponent. I mean, if I want to do a flying knee up close or from the other end of the octagon, I should be free to be able to do so.
It is, however, compounded by the “all over” controls. Again, why two block buttons? It is intuitive that block + :d: means “block low”. Instead, I have four attack buttons, two block buttons, another set of buttons which intend to “change” my attacks, a directional stick, and a grapple stick.
That’s fine for a slow-ass WWE game, but for a fight sim wherein a single clean blow can leave you ggpo, I definitely disagree.
Why do I need to press a button to change my attack? I don’t think doing toward,toward+punch is too complex. Or toward,toward+kick. Instead, I have to “move” to a certain range/space (input 1), press the shoulder button (input 2) + direction (input 3) + the attack (input 4).
So instead of having two entries for inputs (directions + button), I have to accomplish four, and one of them (range) can be influenced by my opponent (if he moves in/out of the move’s distance, that move I had in mind is not coming out). I mean, if I want to do a spinning flying kick in close or from the other side of the ring completely, that decision should be left solely with me, the player, and nothing else.
Generally, I feel like a horse jockey trying to control a horse, rather than the horse itself.
And I apologize in advance if that’s not what you wanted to hear. I respect the work you’ve done, definitely. But IMHO, the underlying engine still needs some tweaking, and the controls and moves system really have to be sorted.
I agree with this. It has to be fun and enjoyable as a video game first, and then as a MMA sim second. If some licenses had to be taken to from reality then so be it. I’d rather nothing change at all, but sacrifices for the sake of a better game is understandable. Of course a person’s idea of fun and acceptable changes can differ.
I do disagree with this. Holding down while blocking to block low will stop any movement while blocked, keeping you stuck in one place. The current system has it so you can block high and low as needed, while still moving and positioning around the ring.
you can move while blocking, so block + down would restrict movement to one direction, no? circling while blocking is a pretty key skill, and you dont want that gone. also, when you block low, your hands will often be in better position if your opponent tries to grapple, so you might end up in and over-under, which would give you a chance at a take down yourself, as opposed to the other player having double underhooks.
and in the ground game and in clinches, you have to block for the body as well. alot of times, the camera isn’t going to be up and down, so pressing block + down wouldn’t feel any more intuitive than another button.
i’m sure there are a ton of complications with making a game like this, and with deadlines and such, i’m sure there were a ton of things that either couldn’t be implemented or needed to be cut. when making a new game, you can’t be overly ambitious, simply because a ton of development time will be spent on laying groundwork. i’m sure with time, the system will get more refined, as the base is there, and more time can be spent messing with the system and improving and adding shit.
i guess what i’m saying is for a first try, i can see why choices were made, and all in all, its one of the better first attempts out there.
I see your point, but low blocking while moving technically isn’t possible… because you can’t defend low leg kicks while stepping around.
@subt-L: Completely understand that. Perhaps it’s because you have not just the two block buttons, but another input for “reversal” and another to change your attacks. Thinking about it now, if the attack change button and reversal stick was omitted, and you could map the placement of the other block button (on a stick, L1 and L2 for example), it would be faster to play with.
Ground reversals could be done with holding either high or low guard + spinning the directional stick. After all, if you can’t attack while performing a reversal, holding both guard while doing a motion on the directional stick would work as well (especially while standing).
Again, I really want to like this game, and I understand how software development works (because that’s what I do too), and all the schedule and budget constraints. I’m happy that a lot of people enjoy the game, and I hope sixtwo and his crew sell a lot so that they get an even bigger budget when the next one rolls around. But like I said: I just feel that some aspects could have been done differently to speed up / tighten the style of play.
Thinking about it now, two guards, four attack buttons, and compatibility with a basic stick (toward,toward can replace the tap-step, toward,toward(hold) can replace holding the stick to run for example), and using button combinations to accomplish reversals and whatnot, this game would play much, much faster control-wise.
I hear a store in NY is selling the game today.
The commercial says “out now” but the few places i’ve asked say 05/19. Best Buy’s computer even shows a shipment date of 05/19.
i saw those commercials also and even know some friends that drove out to a few stores right after they saw it. it’s definitely not “officially” coming out until the 19th…
So, the real problem with the game is the online portion. Bitches can’t handle their losses and just disconnect; dc’d matches don’t get recorded.
I can see takedowns becoming the new throws.
“You suck, all you did was take me down!” is what I imagine seeing in messages from ragequitters; and when they get KOed, they’ll respond like Chuck Liddell always does by saying “I was winning until I got caught.” 
Forrest Griffin is gonna be the new flowchart ken.