Tournament Organizers Implement Anti-Collusion Rule

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
61

i brought it up because spooky was spazzing on chris g and sanford as if he was hammering down the law of their new rules at next level about colluding and under performing, and i didnt see their name on the list as an event that agreed to those terms. so with that said, if they dont agree to evo’s terms, outside of spooky feeling his time was being wasted, wtf was he spazzing about IF it wasnt in the rules anyways. was that clear enough for you to understand. that wasnt very hard to put together.

i would imagine so. okay. lol

youre right, i know this, but im just not comfortable who gets to dictate this. for non locals TO’s will be busy, so it will be up to judges, and extra time will be wasted during those rare events that someone thinks someone is purposefully under performing or colluding, report it, and now an argument ensues between player, judge, and possibly TO. also, for many people, not picking your shit is basically im giving up, and before the match even gets a chance to start, you know what will happen, EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH SPOOKY YESTERDAY. before you get a chance to show anything people are going to be like stop, why are you doing this, explain to me why, i dont accept that explanation, play your shit. its just unnecessary nonsense.

well one could argue a top player losing in pools with a c tier team could be colluding or purposefully under performing in order to give someone else an advantage. will that happen all the time. NOPE. did it happen all the time before all this ruling nonsense and melodramatic announcements about colluding. NOPE. jwong and noel brown both got yellow carded for that though. they knowingly broke road to evo event rules. i dont have anything to say about that.

lets say yipes picks dante/vergil/doom in grand finals instead of dante/vergil/magneto and his doom severely under performs to the point that it doesnt look like he really knows how to play doom well (bad hit confirms, dropped loops, mediocre movement). do we just chop it up to him trying something new in grand finals with doom beam assist, hoping he doesnt have to deal with playing with doom and sucking, or do we say he is colluding or under performing, cut the game short and dq the match or the set?

so we negate almost 3 years of history for a few lousy moments, and demonize him? thats similar to how people dont understand the history of the swastika, and took a positive symbol that was stolen by a terrible man and demonized it for eternity. thats just stupid

it wasnt. lol. i was just kinda picking on streamers a little

i think we have given it more attention then it needed, and took something most wouldve ignored, and MADE it a problem that wouuldve otherwise been left deep in the memory banks of loool that was stupid that one time. vxg is barely worth mentioning in this discussion unfortunately, but it is a part of it, while texas showdown is notable for sure, and wong/noel debacle. but again, the vast majority of times a local or major out performs itself with quality performances vs the times colluding or under performing fucked it up for everyone is like 9.8 out of ten in my favor.

what if they dont want to and theyre not obligated by rule to? thats kinda not the case now since tournies have jumped on the bandwagon. but i mean i think pot splitting is wack anyways. i want da moniez, but i disagree with players being obligated to do anything they arent required to do, and building a culture at tournies local and major of micro managing players. ultimately in this day and age, it only looks bad on the player and their sponsors, not the tournament. if a tournament is unable to distinguish itself from the actions of an individual, then it has a lot of work to do.

i understand that, but im just not fine with how far we’re going to go to enforce that, or if we should even bother to. yes we can argue about money money money and more and more sponsors, but with everything the fgc has seen since its boom in 2009, it has still continued to grow, and the sponsors didnt stop because of aris’s shit, it didnt stop because of colluding, it didnt stop because of shady tournies popping up all over, it didnt stop because of shitty consoles and laggy monitors messing up players performances, and its not going to stop as long as people still stay focused on the task at hand, and not blowing up small isolated incidences like this colluding shit and under performing nonsense.

62

It’s how I felt about it…
I mean, TBH, I didn’t know what happened until I saw this thread, but even afterwards, I didn’t care. That’s a personal preference though, and there’s a lot of people that were disappointed, wanting to see an epic grand finals. You can’t tell somebody to not want that shit. That’s like telling somebody “Oh, Tyson bit Holyfield’s ear? Who cares, just a boxing match”… Nah, dudes hyped up, just to see some fucking bullshit? GTFO. I’ve always been an advocate of FGC players aren’t there to entertain you, they’re there to win. I’ve always said that in Chris G’s defense too…
And pot-splitting itself is fine. Who the fuck cares, really. It’s their money… But don’t troll the thousands watching you just because you don’t give a fuck. Nigga, you got supporters. Throwing a match into some bullshit nonsense is shitting on all those that are watching because they enjoy watching you, want to learn high level techniques, hate you and are dying to see you lose, or whatever other personal reasons they want to watch.
IDK… whatever.

63

i would think the rules would dictate. NO. but why are we comparing the nfl to the fgc. its unnecessary and doesnt fit overall. its easier to stay focused on the topic at hand, which is, is fear mongering and micro managing a good decision for the fgc to agree on when it comes to tournament matches.

grand finals is a joke at a good number of majors? please name all these horrifying events and matches, and under them if you have the time, please name all the events that ran smoothly and players put up exceptional performances in their matches. but i mean, stats dont really matter do they. if one asian cant drive, they all cant right, and lets hammer down on all of the asians to spite the few. lol stfu with your dumb shit

i definitely also disagree that any blatant under performing defeats the entire purpose of the event, when its really only happened in sf4 and mvc3, while all other games, players still performed all the way through, and even then in sf4 and mvc3, one set doesnt even negate all the great matches on and off screen that were had. it sucks for people that are hype to see said person vs said person and they just fuck around, but it doesnt undermine an entire event or the TO. it really just makes them look a certain way to people watching.

64

I’ve only really seen this in the capcom games and maybe NRS? not sure but the tekken and anime guys seem to play it out and then split which is good, anyways maybe there needs to be a rule set where you can only play 3 characters/teams in the tourney maybe not at a local but at majors an have the characters/teams already picked when you sign up I wonder how that will work out.

65

This isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.

In order to positively promote and sustain a competitive community, above all else, it needs to remain competitive. End of story.

Sure, many top players at this point are pretty chummy with each other or whatever, and every FGC’er is essentially broke, so yea pot splitting happens. But to put this in contrast to ANYTHING else that’s competitive, all this does is destroy the activity.

As it’s been said time and time again, and beaten to death with a stick, and used that same stick to beat the dead horse, if there was FLAGRANT collusion in Boxing, MMA, Olympics, Football, Basketball, Rugby, competitive pie eating, etc., it’d blow up and get front page in like most 24/7 news networks and nearly EVERY major sports broadcasting site. And the end result will be the same. The credibility of the sport in question goes down, less people watch it, less ratings, LESS MONEY. So it’s in EVERYONE’S best interest for this to not continue, from the competitive player, to the TO, to the lazy-ass meme-spewing stream monster. No one wins nor benefits from this. The fact there’s ANYONE defending this practice is mind-boggling.

And let’s also be honest with ourselves, FGC is not even CLOSE to MOBA’s, and there’s reasons for that. This of course happens to be another reason to add onto the pile. Any FGC ‘celebrity’ that thinks they’re above it all, needs a reality check and the ENTIRE humble pie. Fighting games along with anything else competitive has one thing that they all share in common. It’s for ENTERTAINMENT. I swear, it’s a miracle golf or baseball haven’t gone into extinction yet. But no one in the fucking right OR left mind would start sandbagging in the championship and then be all ‘meh’ after losing. You’d have things from booing fans to mass hysteria and rioting…if it’s soccer.

But whatever, this is definitely a step in the right direction, and there’s a difference between ‘pocket’ characters/teams and straight up bullshit. PR Balrog did NOT collude with Infiltration. To anyone who can’t figure out the difference, go watch a wall and wait for commercials.

yo marvel

66

The problem is that one match is usually the biggest one, where the number of viewers is very high (if not the highest), and where money is on the line. That’s a lot of eyeballs watching two players underperform live, and some of those eyeballs could belong to people who can decide to not support future tournaments.

67

Except that it’s not a fair comparison.

Tom Brady has the consequence of being fired/suspended/fined for colluding. Not everyone that makes it to GF is sponsored, and not every sponsor cares about the action of their players. I agree that the collusion is a problem… I do not agree with the solution.

68

Bingo. This rule isn’t going to stop pot splitting, and it’s not intended to. What it is intended to do is protect the image of the community and the players - if there’s no thrill of victory and agony of defeat, if there’s no singular champion climbing over the broken and bloodied bodies of his competitors, if there’s a grand finals set where both players blatantly don’t give a shit who wins and who loses, then there’s no reason for anyone to care, including sponsors.

69

learns your in finals

[list]

[*]approaches homie/friend cause you most likely wont do so to a unknown/rival (does that word exist in the fgc still?)

[*]talk about the pot split PRIVATELY…not around every sodom, ken, and harry. calculate 1st and second 2 winning an prizes divide by 2 an maybe fight over the gifts. this should be able to be done in a matter of moments.

[*]bring up point of PLAY IT OUT… why cause it pleases the fans (remember you have them now), media (cause the world is watching), Sponsors (this include other players/onlookers whom PAID into the pot), and also where you two STAND since you both got this far** no matter who you guys pick** and chances are in this day in age seeing each other again is slim. the faster you do so the faster the loot is made. AND REMEMBER…theyre side bets going on so more money could be made NOT ONLY for you but the crew an friends as well.

[*]fight it out to help solidify 1st and 2nd place. Put smiles on everyone faces an for the books.

[*]wait till funds are given, friends are not around, and no one is watching aka back at your meeting ground… divide up the loot.

[*]Lose half of money MMin a guy named boogerpicker part 2 who tied for 132nd place in a crowded room

[/list]

I thought folks knew how to hustle correctly. Especially in phase where more money is floating around an stardom/who are you is a priority.

70

well, now everyone in the fgc has a consequence for colluding

i dont know why youre trying to argue for this. this is not a “slippery slope” argument, this is to prevent scumbags from scumbagging grand finals of majors

71

Regardless of what you think about these new rules, I don’t understand this self-centered mindset at all.

People go through all the effort to provide some sort of entertainment to thousands of people and then a good player decides to fuck it all up by trolling around in GFs. Why?

Not only that but no one can be so ignorant as to not understand the situation after VGX. But still we see these defensive responses via twitter and what not, it makes people feel like they had every intention to annoy Spooky. Or maybe they really are completely clueless.

72

word.i understand what youre saying, but i dont really like comparisons to sports, and just because someone else does something, doesnt mean it automatically fits into what youre doing.

currently right now, if you are heard or seen colluding and its reported to a TO, you, COULD be disqualified. how they are going to judge and jury that AT THE TOURNAMENT is not made clear, and opens up legal issues if someone were to take it to court, which as pots grow bigger, someone so inclined to and has the resources to just might.

currently also is the rule of not being allowed to under perform, but its hard to really even judge that without it being blatantly obvious (or maybe its with just cause), and choosing to counter pick with a team or character to which you arent really familiar with. but taking a risk is not evidence of that in any way, and can possibly become an issue as people will only judge you from what they have seen you play on stream or talk about on twitter or forums, when the reality of the matter is, 99 percent of the community has no idea whats going through your head or what you think you can do.

so when youre in a situation of volunteer judges at majors having to be judge and jury, who are not contractually obligated to be unbiased and can lean a certain way when such a decision making event occurs under the new rules of colluding and under performing, you end up with just a mess of arguing and time wasting.

there is no strong evidence that this is happening ALL THE TIME, and lest we forget, we were all up in arms when people tried to paint the fighting game community as some sexist, misogynistic boys club of foul language. but now we’re trying to take a few isolated incidences and paint it as some huge problem hovering above us that we’re ignoring, and its going to impact the fate of fighting game tournaments, sponsors, and pots, when we’ve been through worse publicly so far and have continued to get nothing but more support. hmmmm

i question whether we’re even capable of being such judge and jurors at tournaments, and should we be. but i mean the TO’s of the fighting game community have spoken, of course as usual with no input from the community that they claim so much, so i think all has been said on the topic to be said.

i unfortunately dont expect the fighting game community to step up and challenge TO’s, which is sad (but per the usual), but i think we should all really think about the decision making going down, whos doing it, and why. if pot splitting is still so fine with people, then why are they up in arms about people not playing out the grand finals to the fullest with their “mains”. because you are to be entertained? thats a mighty strong privileged way of thinking about it all. because sponsors will question the integrity of your tournament and pull out because of colluded matches on stream? there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE OF THAT happening.

the only focus right now is really on grand finals of tournaments that were poorly run, and locals that dont really determine much other then if a streamer sees a dip in viewership, and to that i say, its better then nothing, and your negative spin on it will do nothing to help the situation. the stream monsters dont even speak for 90 percent of the people actually watching who might have wanted to see yang vs balrog grand finals with chris g and sanford.

its just a whole lot of assuming going on imo, and i understand its a cause for concern, but i think this blatant fuck you follow how evo does it or get no shine on srk shit is bullying and stupid. a simple well thought out article or interview on srk’s podcast would have resonated throughout the community better and got the point across.

implying that the fighting game community would fall and crash on itself competitively because of a few isolated moments, and in some cases very specific situations, is ridiculous. if youre so weak willed to see a grand finals being somewhat under performed makes you quit trying, then you aint shit to begin with as a person. sorry :confused:

this isnt sports. our judges arent paid, our TO’s barely make a profit if any, our streamers have second jobs or live off of ads and donations, our pots arent that big, and we’re already a niche community that has seen its extreme ups and downs, that WE WILL see again. lets focus more on what evidence is at hand, rather then (imo) misplaced comparisons to sports, where everyone is getting paid, and everyone is signing a contract.

the fighting game community compared to sports would be like comparing moonshiners to budweiser. rules simply differ naturally.

**so what the fuck do you want jimmy? i would like the leaders of srk, eventhubs and evo to not rally and bully event organizers into following their format and rules, and putting pressure on them to be a certain way by offering the opportunity for evo seeds which will naturally attract more viewers to the stream and more players to the venue, AND JUST WORRY ABOUT WHAT THE FUCK THEIR DOING. **

**point blank period. “they” have big brothered when they felt needed, but now i think its time for them to fall back. if we’re to continue making sport analogies, you dont see the mets telling the yankees what to do, the al telling the nl what to do, fox sports telling espn what to do, and the list goes on. this idea of the “fighting game community” and its non existent central hub being the evo organizers and creators of srk has to be reevaluated. **

73

Somewhat off topic. I think part of the reason why the FGC isn’t bigger in tournaments is that viewers are tired of seeing the same 10 or so guys constantly make Top 8. It’s why we cheer on the underdog or newcomer. It’s why Gamerbee blew up.

Just saying. I know personally I’m tired of seeing it.

74

I kind of sympathize with Spooky in that he’s putting in a lot of time and effort to publicize these guys and they aren’t really holding up their end. That said given that it’s a weekly tournament this is probably something that needs to resolved between Spooky and the players in question on a personal level.

A top player sandbagging or trolling in pools and losing is only hurting themselves. That’s fine. If a player wants to make it harder for them to win that’s fine. It’s when you get to the point where the outcome of the actual match directly affects who’s getting paid and who isn’t that we’re running into problems. Also, I am aware that Justin and Noel got yellow carded (for whatever that’s worth) for that event. I was saying that they shouldn’t have gotten paid on top of not getting any seeding points.

So what you’re describing is different from (nearly) everyone else who plays Doom exactly how? Joking aside it should IMO be pretty clear if it was a tactical decision (i.e. he thinks having Dr. Doom on his team even if he can’t really play the character improves his chances of winning) or a sandbagging decision. With Yipes specifically what came to mind was what if he was running something like Spencer/Dante/Vergil and was getting bopped. His Spencer was getting hit, Vergil gets snapped in, mixed up and killed. Down 2-0 he switches to Spencer/Dante/Dr. Doom. To me that’s fine. He’s clearly showing that he’s trying to turn this around by picking a top 5 assist and one that can serve as both combo extension and combo breaker.

Not trying to demonize him just to hammer into his head that the way things are going behavior that might have been OK in the past isn’t OK anymore. That said I would imagine of top players with regards to their behavior that he’s on the shortest leash. Also let’s not go Nazis in arguments. Nothing good comes from going Nazi.

You’re right we have been paying a lot of attention to this because it seems to be becoming more of a problem not less.

If someone doesn’t want to play by the rules that have been set then they’re perfectly welcome to stop participating. It also doesn’t reflect badly on just the player and their sponsors it does reflect badly on the event. Do you really want to be the TO (who’s probably a Youtube partner if they’ve been around and length of time) putting up the individual matches for your event on Youtube and they’re all hype as hell up until it get’s to the Grand Finals where upon it turns into a sandbagging trollfest? That reflects poorly on the TO.

That’s great. Nothing has completely fucked things up yet. Why should we be tolerating things though that stand a significant chance of ruining things for everyone? Especially if it’s something that seems relatively easily actionable as this is.

75

Except that circumstances that exhibit “Colluding” are not defined at all, and left solely at the discretion of the TO. What’s worse is only circumstantial evidence is required to accuse someone of colluding, when it’s almost impossible to prove that no collusion happened. If circumstantial evidence is all that’s required, then seriously… what’s the difference between the “collusion” that supposedly keeps happening in grand finals and a random nobody doing something generally known to be stupid or make poor decisions (intentionally under-performing) during a match? Why not just ban all “bad” play? Why not make all tournaments character locked? Hell why even have open tournaments at all?

And if I am in a position where over $1K is at stake and get DQ’d for colluding when I didn’t, best believe that I’m filing a suit against the TO.

76

Nah fam… then you can say the 500 to 1000+ are scrubs…

If the same folk continue to make top bidding sprinkled with the ‘new blood’ then it goes to show all those streams, manuals, tier rankings, frame data, youtube vids, and lengthy discussions did nothing. The focus was not on the Engine, Mechanics, and true understanding of said game but what said top player is doing…

Gamerbee was simply someone who beat Justin with a character whom folks deemed ‘too hard to learn’ (yes ive heard this), spoken in a tier format (since that became the new thing) and completely different. Not knowing he has been training and learning matchups an saved that ish for nationals so to speak. Note shortly there after Justin LEARNED that matchup an the mechanics behind it (hell he selected makoto at one point to challenge it)…

IMO the FGC isn’t bigger cause of a multitude of other reasons than the same players. Please understand numbers continue to grow per major event. I growth into the “big boy stage” will need the ‘top players’ plus more. I can understand being tired of the same ol’ but that should be a drive to get better or root for the up an comer.

77

They organize the event and get to decide the rules. Lets be serious here, no one is DQ’ing players for picking another character.

Why doesn’t this phenomenon happen in other games or in other countries? It feels as if it is only these certain individuals in games like Marvel and Street Fighter who always seem to be at the heart of controversy.

78

So if this confusing then people write down some basic rules and you have no argument whatsoever. This isn’t some mystical higher level concept here. Pretending it is a disservice to actually moving forward. We should be laughing this off by the weekend. Let’s get going on that: I’ve got things to drink.

The fact that there is any need to formalize any of this these days is a fucking problem. You can pretty readily drop games without needing to be apparent about it. Cats are getting jaded and lazy.

Don’t be suspect. I believe that one of the players in the latest fiasco has gone random select at a major before. Don’t be suspect. If you are Real, you can talk it out like a man with the TO pretty quickly. It is pretty terrible that things have boiled up to this point. At this point people need to act like men and talk about how to treat each other with respect. Don’t be disqualified for no reason, and don’t fuck off on other people’s time for no reason.

If you want to “just play and hang loose”, play that way the entire tournament. Let the hungry people pass you by.

So leave. You have real life issues, go handle real life. Yes you will get less money, but you have no moral obligation to continue playing, and you doing so half-assedly is kinda wasting time for everybody else. If your mom keeps dying before Grand Finals Set 2 every time, you’ll probably be asked not to come back – but that’s just part of being a grown-up and treating others with respect.

Do you think tourney judges want to waste precious time arguing with players on their playstyles, teams, etc?

That blow-up came up after a bad history. In isolation, I would disagree. In context, I agree. In the current known reality, I want those guys to sit down to lunch and talk it out and get things straight.

Was Chris extremely suspect then and later? Yes. If he really has some secret plan, why would have not have blind picked it? The moment you take secret teams seriously, it’s usually pretty clear that you’re taking your secret team seriously.

Maybe this and every other instance in the past year is a misunderstanding, but clarifying that with the TO is going to be pretty easy if you want to be serious about what you’re doing. If you don’t want to be serious about what you’re doing, walk away then. That’s what Spooky mentioned last night: if you’re done, you’re done, but you don’t need to hold up the rest of the schedule for every other person there.

I’m not aware that Spooky was there to film some exhibition awesomeness. I think he was there to stream the Grand Finals. You should check with him on that. If you’re right, you have a point. If you’re wrong, then they’re dicking around on other people’s time.

Evidently Spooky wanted some basic standards here. If that’s not clear before, it’s clear now. If they want to work together in the future, they’ll need to talk it out and understand each other. And that, the basic respect for each other as all part of the same community, should be a nice step forward. :\

79

Exactly the reason I’d file a suit against the TO… they organize the event and decide the rules. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only person who’d be that pissed if wrongfully punished for something I didn’t do. The fact remains that no set of circumstances are explicitly stated that constitute collusion… since proof is not required.

So now… who wants to be a TO? In addition to all the crap they have to deal with currently, they also get the added pressure from Evo organizers and sponsors to ensure collusion doesn’t happen while also facing potential financial liability for being wrong about it. This seems like a great way to grow the FGC!

80

I think folks are getting too deep on the issue. The main point is to MAKE YOU TAKE IT SERIOUS. You can pick dan for christ sake but PLAY SERIOUS…

you can start the match off with doom/sentinel/an the flaming barrel from World Warriors bonus stage… TOs DONT CARE just for christ sake PLAY SERIOUS cause more than just your friends an stream monsters are watching…

IMAGINE (cause i know) you put your money into an event and the top finalist are just joking around cause they know theyre gonna get paid. Would you indulge/invest into that event/genre anymore?? How would you feel seeing people not putting their all into it???

WE COULDNT CARELESS WHAT YOU DO WITH THE PRIZE MONEY… ive seen players lose it all as i stated above as a joke. Just put some professionalism into the play! Stop acting like your kids… rules are being put in place to simply help change the attitude. stop acting like TOs are making you do something like pick a character an dont you dare change… if every MAJOR TO has came together (finally) to agree then it means something… an on top of that

PLEASE understand it will only be strictly enforced during the money making rounds…so if you dont make the MONEY MAKING placings then you don’t have much to worry about or cry about.