Tournament Blackheart

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
21

BH/Cable/Cyclops has fairly good defense, and I think it’s probably better than BH/Cable/Commando for that reason, but it still has vulnerabilities to snapback and BH’s offense is doubly crippled by not being able to DHC for any good damage on Cable without getting anyone shot (which is a big deal) and while Cyclops is better as a stand-alone defensive assist than Commando is, it’s still not as good as the combination of Sentinel and Commando. And this all completely overlooks the issue with basically any team that’s dialed up to turtle this much: it only works if you’re ahead or close. If you fall behind all that badly, your only real hope is if Cable manages to vaporize half the team in one blast, which basically nobody in tournaments is going to allow any more. (Yes, I know about the X versus Justin video. There’s a very good reason you’ve only seen one of those.)

Sent/Cable/BH, in any order, is good for snapback insurance (i.e. people will be discouraged from bothering to snap if you can play all three characters competently), but the assist scheme is sub-optimal for all three characters. Sentinel likes having BH enough that a subpar AAA isn’t bad, but Cable would probably rather have the rocket punch from Sentinel while BH would rather have the drones. Also, MSP rolls up this team something awful, and most Sent/Commando teams also give it a great deal of trouble.

BH/Sent/Commando is probably the best all-around team that you can put BH with. It maximizes his offense (DHC that’s both very painful and Cable-safe in addition to Commando), his defense (Sent/Commando is probably his favorite two-assist combination in the game), and gives the next character behind him a similarly favorable set of assists as well.

I’ve used all three of these teams at tournaments over the years, as well as Sent/BH/Cyclops (if you sub Cyclops for Commando, I’m a strong believer that you’re best off starting Sentinel and going aggressive early), Cable/BH/Commando (an old anti-Scrub counter of mine that I’ve since stopped believing in much), and BH/Storm-B/Sentinel-Y (which is ugly, but weirds people out just enough that it sometimes works).

I’ve tinkered with Guile and Cammy as substitute AAAs, because they both protect against Sentinel better than anything else in the game, and any assist you can do off of Commando you can usually do off of one or the other of these in response to a hit. However, once people get used to the oddball qualities of these I don’t think they’re as good as Commando or Cyclops.

Sooner or later I’ve always eventually come back to the conclusion that BH/Sent/Commando is simply the best team with BH on it in the game, though. Once in a while I’ll switch to BH/Cable/Cyclops as a change-up, yes, but ultimately I think BH/Sent/Commando just has the fewest number of glaring weaknesses against most of the matchups and situations that you’re going to run into at a tournament level. The team can rush, control space, defend, trap, run away, zone, kill you all at once with a DHC, safely get its AAA character out with a DHC to either of the other two characters, or just turtle. The only things BH/Cable/Cyclops does that Watts can’t do better are controlling space better while Cable’s on point and hitting people with supers off of assists.

22

yeah I agree with u stilt, about sent/commando being the best assist for bh, but that damn commando sucks donkey dick when it come to playing him on point. I’ve tried numerous times trying to learn him but I can’t. that the reason y I play cyke instead and maybe cammy once in a while. I still play commando occasionly but not too much. I also feel u can set so much more stuff up with cyke, like the bh/cyke reset infinite which does stupid damage. I don’t bother with the bh alone infinite. even tho commando will be better for sent, I’ve just gotten used to playin with cyke with sent and bh. I plan on working on my commando more tho cuz he would be more useful in the long run until I come upon a doom aaa lol.

23

The first thing you have to know when you play Commando on point is to keep moving and jumping so you’re not a stationary target and you only have to block one direction. Do that so that you don’t get hit, and get Sentinel’s drones in there until you’ve got a bit of space. Then you can start using stuff like st. fierce, Gennity and Sho to protect yourself once you’ve got the drones back there. Make judicious use of corridors and fire blasts. One thing I’ve noticed Genghis doing which I don’t use myself but which might help you is to call Gennity and drones at the same time at full screen, then take a look at what the rushing opponent does. If they’re going over the top, throw a corridor, if they stay close to the ground, throw a fire blast. Either way, the drones and Gennity create enough space that it’s fairly safe. Sho is very good for protecting the space in front of you against the rush, I use that one quite a bit.

The main game plan for Commando on point is to play safe and DHC to one of the other two characters. Yes, if you’ve got him stuck by himself in an endgame you’re probably going to lose most of the time, so probably the best pre-endgame situation is to get him on point when Sentinel is low on life but isn’t quite actually dead yet, and let Commando come out to spell him a bit while you can still use the assist. DHC with Captain Sword can go to either of the other two characters’ horizontal supers relatively safely on block and can combo into them on a hit.

Another thing Commando gives you that Cyclops doesn’t is the Sentinel/Commando team super. It amazes me how rarely I see people use this, but I suppose it’s due to the fact that not very many people play Cable any more, because that’s probably the best use for it. The Sword pulls people down into the HSF and the only way to punish it when blocked is to pushblock above the HSF and shoot Sentinel in the head. However, it’s fast enough that if you see Cable super jump and extend the gun arm out, you’re going to hit him. It only does maybe 50% damage, but if you’re being careful in that fight, 50% damage goes a long way against Cable and it gets it into the back of his mind that being at full screen range does NOT truly mean he’s in control, which is probably more important than the actual damage itself. Real tournament example since this IS a tournament-related thread: I’ve only actually played against Randy Lew in a tournament match once, and I won it in two straight rounds with BH/Sent/Commando against his Team Row. That team super was the major blow against his Cable that took the second game from being just mildly to my advantage after BH took a moderate lead on Mags to being enough out of reach that I was able to just stall out the clock from there. (Yeah… tourney match, Randy Lew v StiltMan. Two games, two time overs. Very shocking… :looney: )

24

Hey thanks for the advice. I was playing BH/Sent/Capcom and you’re right commando is a way better assist for them, i was even using capcom against sent/strider/doom and still wasnt wasnt having too much of a problem then someone came with storm/sent/cable was beating they’re ass till for some strange reason i started horribly missing s.lk s.lk+Capcom in HOD. i missed the shit like 4 times, i was pissed. I think it was because of the timing difference in the standing and crouching versions i dont know. But thanks again for the advice.

25

Hey has anyone ever played BH/Sent/Doom and is that team worth playing? I’ve been thinking about trying it, i used to play BH/Storm/Doom, any input would help.

26

When I play BH/Sent/Doom I play it with extreme patience cause my goal (or possibly the goal ov the team) is to corner trap the opponent with few options in his favor and keep him there with Molecular Shield blockstun + whoever you have on point.

We all know the BS that Sent/BH is capable ov…and I’d much rather start Sent in this team UNLESS you’ve scouted your opponent and know that starting BH will be an advantage (if this ever happens). Abuse basic chip/zone patterns and just be patient cause you ain’t got a reliable AAA to work with and the area above your head is your main issue. Use common sense when it comes to the matchups (Sent/Doom vs Sent/CapCom) and just wait for openings to appear.

Personal strats include mixing up zoning patterns with FP Dark Thunder for those that think to super jump over drones (just watch your timing and the recovery time ov the DT…if they’re high enough buffer into HoD…if they’re close enough and in the corner Judgment Day their arse!) and df.FP command launcher to catch or trade with Mag/Storm trijumps (I actually do this alot with moderate success…snapbacks also apply here).

If I said anything out ov context or incorrectly Stilt will prolly correct it…but this is basically how I play the team…Doom is another story entirely…

27

alright thanks yeah this team doesnt have an aaa, thats why ive been hesitate to try it

28

Man! good stuff everyone!

I really wanted this thread to grow because when i started playing blackheart back in the day there wasn’t much info on other blackheart team that could be effective in a tournament senario. Which by the way i’ll give props to STILTMAN for sharing a little bit of his extensive knowledge:wgrin: concerning his tournament Blackheart. Also Stiltman if you wouldn’t mind please continue to share some more of your tournament experience when playing blackheart. i’m sure that everyone here appreciates it.

By the way Blackheart(AAA)/SENTINEL(DRONES)/DOOM(ROCKS), it is not a bad team and believe it or not it is very effective on MSP, and Tron based teams. And since the game now a days is ruled by MSP you might want to learn how to play this team. It is not very difficult, but it is a diffrent game than your usual blackheart. On the downside SANTHRAX eats this team for breakfast/lunch/dinner!!! Yeah!, it is that weak against santhrax.:amazed:

29

Top 5 (or 7) ‘business teams’ you’ll see in tourneys nowadays would be:

  1. MSP (the new team Scrub)
  2. Santhrax/MSS
  3. Matrix <Storm/Sent/Cyke>
  4. SSCable
  5. ROW/Scrub

…and this is not just by hold good the teams are but the ratio ov players that pick them in tourneys…at least…IMHO

30

yep, those teams are so annoying!!!

it’s like every noob that comes into the game suddenly goes and picks MSP to play with. Noone now days wants to play other teams because they think the rest of the 50+ characters in the game are trash. And to tell you the truth we experienced players are the ones that promote that kind of mind set. Well whatever i like playing blackheart i am very good with him and in fact people tends to remember me because of my blackheart than anything else.

31

Thats why I play BH/Storm/Commando or Cyke as my main team. I’m tired of the same ol teams everywhere you look. BH is a real pain in the ass if you play him right, especially with a ground controlling assist and decent aaa.

32

Blackheart/Commando/Doom

That team is mean!

BH is very High-tier, he can be almost as good as sent in the right hands, and counters pesky storm/doom players pretty well.

For some reason many players don’t think much of Blackheart until they encounter someone who knows how to play him. Then they realize how much of a bastard he is.

33

whats a good strat for playing bh/storm/doom. My sent isnt has good as it used to be. Will it be just focusing on chip damage or what?

34

I’m not fond of BH/Doom much without an AAA unless it’s maybe with Strider or Sentinel in the middle. Even so… yeah, it has serious issues with Sent/Commando and probably loses for free to Sent/Cyclops. It’s a team you’d use as a counter for Magneto (and mostly MSS even at that) and absolutely nothing else.

BH/Doom/Commando is very good for BH but ultimately has the same problem Strider/Doom/Commando has: if the first character dies, Doom’s in trouble against basically any tournament match-up. I’ve been tinkering with Strider/Doom/Cyclops lately, which is a little weaker for Strider but much, much better for Doom – Doom is just about viable with Cyclops if you can block well, although I like him out of the middle better when the matchup has usually slowed down a bit (read: he matches up better with most second characters than he does against Magneto’s speed).

I’ve found myself rethinking a little bit on BH/Sent/Commando as opposed to BH/Sent/Cammy (or maybe even BH/Sent/Guile). I’ve been on record for a while that I think the former has the fewest glaring weaknesses, but there are a few things to recommend Cammy as a substitute, which has me thinking if I shouldn’t try it again. I’ve actually won a tournament or two with BH/Sent/Cammy as a staple team, where BH/Sent/Commando usually gets in trouble somewhere.

Cammy assist:

  • Will usually only hit one character at a time unless they’re both in the same place. This is the biggest weakness of it as compared to Commando, especially as a countercall. In tournament play it makes her damn near useless against Team Scrub, which is already one of BH’s biggest nightmares. Maybe Guile would help this, I don’t know, but I don’t think Sentinel uses Guile as well.

  • Is invulnerable until it hits a solid object. Solid objects include characters, Doom’s rocks, Sentinel’s drones, BH’s demons, and so on. The assist is actually still good against most of these though… the angle of Cammy is different enough from the demons that there are still a lot of places it’ll hit, and Cammy will still hit a Doom that’s dropped directly onto you because she’ll hit the body before the rocks. The drones are not really an issue outside of HSF, and even then it’s still no worse than Commando. It is potentially an issue with Strider’s animals.

  • Has a longer horizontal range than Commando in the air (if she doesn’t hit anything else first) and shorter on the ground, but won’t go as high.

  • Is much faster on release than Commando. This can be a very big deal against the rush, because it is next to impossible to cross her up or stop attacking on reaction to seeing her come out. Very big deal as an anti-rush AAA

  • Can still be inferno/HOD’ed with. The same combos where you hit with a sj. rh into st. short/fwd/AAA/inferno/HOD will work with Cammy just about the same as Commando. I’ve seen spacing cases where if you are far enough away Cammy will whiff on a small character, but it’s rare and can be corrected by spacing it smarter if I remember right.

Now, that basically means that these situations are actually better for you if you’ve got Cammy for BH:

  • Against Sentinel, a lot of flying space gets taken away by Cammy as opposed to Commando. Commando only covers the area over you. With Cammy, about the only places that are safe are straight overhead (and fairly high overhead at that, at an angle where BH super jumping can just go get him), full screen’s distance, or behind a human shield. This one is also huge – the Sentinels that will sit there and hover just beyond BH’s sj. poke reach or easy demon hitting reach cannot do this if you have Cammy. They can fly up and drop an assist and then stay overhead, but they have to get there first and even then you can call Cammy and go up to hit him air-to-air anyway; Cammy will take out the assist and BH can take out Sentinel. If Sentinel is hovering further out you can simply call Cammy and blindly inferno/HOD. If they’re in Cammy’s area, they get hit back into the inferno and nailed, and the airspace outside Cammy’s range is not large enough to intelligently evade the inferno/HOD itself.

  • Against Cable, if there is no assist in the way, random AHVB’s for chip at medium range can be punished cleanly. Much better than Commando here too.

  • Against Magneto, your opposition usually pretty much has to slow down a bit or Cammy’s going to hit them all day. They have to slow down for Cammy a lot more than Commando – they can’t realistically start an attack and then see her come out and stop in time to avoid being hit. They also can’t buzz around over your head with airdashes and figure she’ll go the wrong way, because she pretty much always won’t.

  • Against Storm, if Storm doesn’t bring an assist out before attempting to hail and doesn’t put you in block stun first, Cammy will go through the hail and hit Storm clean. This one is actually a pretty big deal, because Storm is one of BH’s worst matchups because the rush can kill you and the runaway will usually win too. Same rush and airdash defense advantage as with Magneto.

  • Against Doom, you don’t have to get directly under a Doom throwing photons to stop him, nor get quite as close to j. fierce. If you’re too close under him throwing photons, though, you lose that spot, but you can potentially do inferno/armageddon there.

  • Against Spiral, st. fierce doesn’t protect her against Cammy as it does against Commando. The swords mess up either one about the same.

  • Cammy is usually going to be better for you on point whether she’s alone or not, although I’d say it’s a wash against Magneto because her main advantage on Commando (speed) isn’t much of an advantage against Mags. She can attack behind Sentinel’s drones to a much greater extent than Commando, though, and she can also do a double-jumping runaway in endgame situations to stall out the clock on a lead, and it’s kind of dangerous to go after her.

  • Cammy can DHC out a little better in snapbacks because she has an air super, as well as the vertical ground super that’s got some invulnerability, but it takes a bit more setup once it’s off to safely get to the other two than Captain Sword does.

So now that I’ve said how wonderful Cammy is, why don’t I use her? Two main reasons. The first reason is really at the root of the other one, so I’ll say it first: the whole “human shield” element. Commando will double hit a lot of things that Cammy will only hit one of, and that by itself, even for all the other places Cammy will hit stuff where Commando won’t, has a strong tendency to make him better in a lot of situations. And this leads to the second reason, which is probably the real one: Cable. Cable is going to be calling AAAs or other assists out and then going up behind them all the freaking time, and while this hurts Commando a little, it makes Cammy damn near useless against him in most cases. History here: Justin Wong, when he first came on the scene, swore by Cammy as his AAA of choice. He first came on with Magneto/Cable/Cammy (which was probably a precursor to Team Row) where Magnus would pressure people closely enough that Cammy’s close range power would destroy people, and then went on to Storm/Sent/Cammy with much the same game plan. If people tried to out-rush him, Cammy would blow them away, and he was the first one who really was able to break down the turtles consistently. But then came the Midwest Championships of 2002 and his first encounter with SiN’s turtling Team Scrub, and he struggled mightily and horribly. Even he couldn’t come up with a viable answer that would make Cammy work against Cable, and after that, Cammy disappeared.

The human shield element might be a reason to use Guile instead of Cammy, because Guile will hit multiple characters and covers an even bigger diagonal area than Cammy does, but he’s not as invulnerable and not as fast.

35

QF-F-E!!!

IMO you can play that team 2 ways: Either start off BH and use the BH/Doom trap to build meter and keep the opponent busy while looking for safe ways to DHC into Hail (Armageddon into Hail being the best DHC to use, but semi-difficult to pull off…so you’re better off with HoDxxHail). Once Storm comes in just pressure the crap out ov the opponent cause you have 2 very good assists to work with (Storm/BH should theoretically stuff Sent’s shit…just watch for CapCom/Cyke AAA, Storm/Doom is just flat out NASTY!!)…

OR

Start out with Storm and wreck shit with Storm/Doom, punishing assists when possible that way when BH comes in he has a much easier time doing what he does best…just make sure you play your cards right and you should come out with the win.

Storm and BH can also be used as batteries for chipping games as well (OMFG MShield!!) and you can practically just be safe the whole match and chip the opponent to death unless they have Cable…but we all know what to do with that bastard xD. Don’t start Doom on point unless your Doom is uber beastly…but I wouldn’t do so anyways cause the only assist he can safely work with is Typhoon…and it doesn’t cover him like Drones does…BH AAA isn’t pretty safe and you should only use it when you KNOW the opponent has nowhere to go between Photons and Infernos.

Another option that actually works in BH’s favor is switching Storm’s assist to Lightning Attack (I tend to do this when I play BH/Storm/Sent) as the LA assist actually sets up Inferno/FP Dark Thunder zone tactics (and if they’re really close to you…Armageddon DHC!!). Also remember that LA is invincible on startup and can go thru shit such as the first set ov Sent’s HSF drones…setting up pushblock possibilities into InfernoxxHoD/JDay.

36

Anyway, that went on a lot longer than I’d first intended, but you get the idea. I guess at some point I probably don’t want to be using BH/Sent/Commando as my team of choice against Team Scrub anyway, so maybe I shouldn’t be too harsh on Cammy just because she probably makes that matchup even worse. However, if you’re going to actually beat Team Scrub with BH/Sent/AAA it’s going to be either because Sentinel starts and keeps Cable off balance with BH assist enough that the AAA is moot, or because BH manages to go over the top and hits Cable with a sj. rh and kills him, and neither situation is affected much by Cammy. The part that is affected by Cammy is anything that goes nearer to the ground. Sentinel flying can make Cable a little more afraid to go up and AHVB him with Cammy down there though, because he doesn’t have to get as close before Cammy will hit Cable as opposed to Commando. The other part of it is that if Cable super jumps, Commando can set up a wall to stop him, whereas Cammy only goes up so high, is a little slower to get up there, won’t get up there at all if there’s an assist down on the ground for her to hit, and has an angle that doesn’t cover straight up as well, forcing the point character to go up with Cable to stop him. It can be done, but it takes more work.

So in the end, I am not presently convinced that Cammy is BH’s next favorite assist behind Commando. I think she might be the next best one for the combination of BH and Sentinel, although Sent/Cyclops isn’t bad at all either. But if you don’t completely lose your head and start thinking that Cammy by herself makes you rush proof I think she might have enough advantages in enough rush match-ups that I might try her again. I did use to think that she was unrushable, and about the only thing that’s changed that’s makes me think otherwise is double snaps. If you avoid the double snap and don’t change too much, I think she might be better against rushdown teams. Enough that I might just toy with her some more.

37

Stilt you be bringing up some good ass points. since looking at some of the post you’ve made i know my BH has gotten better. The guys I play with cant get past him, i took your advice on commando and ive gotten better with him but hell he still sucks but his aaa it the shit and hurts like hell, and Deth ive layed the team before and i kinda figured it was gonna be a lot of chipping. Thanks guys for your info.

38

i play that team i love them i played them yesterday i got some nice trap games and some cold ass assist killers with BH and Doom… Good shit on that team !!!

39

i’ve thought of that team but i just dont trust doom being second, i would rather have him as a last character, cuz there arent to many people that can handle him one on one, aaa wise.

40

Stilt, what do you think are the best 10 teams in order for BH? Besides Watts I mean, since Watts has no rivals.