This seems to come up in many other threads. Arguments about weather the vortex is good for street fighter. Most characters don’t have a vortex, only a priveledged few…and all our top tier (I think? Wait Zangief has one and he isn’t tops). So what is your opinion, should characters with vortexes get to keep them unaltered? Should other characters get vortexes? Do non vortex characters deserve better options in defending against the vortex?
Thing I’ve noticed, it is quite fun to vortex someone, but at the same time frustrating to be vortexed.
I think the risk/reward for vortex characters needs to be balanced out. For example, Akuma has a very safe vortex. When an opponent successfully defends against it he is rewarded with nothing other than keeping his health. There should be more risk involved for the vortex character, but there isn’t which is why Cammy and Akuma are widely considered to be in top 3. I think Ibuki will make her way into at least the top 5 eventually, when the right player comes along to use her to her fullest potential.
vortex in and of itself isn’t that bad. there’s a lot of characters with explosive offense that still aren’t that good at the end of the day. it’s the tools and mechanics around it that make it a lot worse. like yea, akuma has vortex, but akuma can zone, can defuse pressure, has amazing footsie tools. akuma’s vortex is more pronounced because while he can do so much to you, there’s still very little you can really do to him in return and in most regards, risk vs reward is heavily in his favor.
if you look at the 3 best characters in the game and consider their properties, i think the real question is what exactly is health as a balancing factor really? and can low health justify having characters be near flawless in their tools?
A better question for Akuma players is “To look at the screen…or to not look at the screen?” while you are holding up forward on your joystick and randomly selecting one of your infinitely safe maximum confusion unblockable derp options that your opponent (who is obviously playing with honor) has a 0% chance of surviving. :tup:
well if there are going to be no changes to the system if a future sf4 game is released, or if AE2012 is as is forever, then definitely vortex. not to vortex for me personally would equal no real reason for hard knockdowns or even knockdowns in general, and a giant loss of pressure. it would end up favoring mostly fireball characters and other low risk designed characters who do shit damage and matches would degenerate into long fights of attrition and possibly timeouts. the design of the majority of matches would end up with little to no climax and basically down to who gets the first lucky jump in so they can do their higher damage FADC combos, then back off because they have to be wary of the ultra they just gave their opponent and the risk for keeping up momentum isn’t worth it with all the defensive options in the game. even with OS buffering with a meaty ground normal isn’t worth the risk most of the time.
the vortex is the only thing worth risking with all the defensive options in the game because it’s the only thing that can beat most of them (hell, even all of them in some cases). it sucks but that’s the way it’s gotta be with this specific game design.
almost every character has a vortex in this game. off the top of my head i can only think of guile as not having a vortex since his only move that can crossup is j.lk and in order for that to be safe on hit or on block, he has to do it as low as possible so it’s useless if used as an ambiguous jumpin attack. sagat is probably the only other character who doesn’t need one.
a guile mirror match sometimes does become a battle of attrition and there are timeouts. there’s no reason for guile to go in for the kill if he’s ahead in HP so he zones the majority of the match. if one guile is significantly behind in HP he’ll come out and is forced to take risks and huge damage but if they’re close in HP it’s pretty boring. it’s similar for blanka but not as bad and he has a vortex.
i’m not sure what you mean by “there are many match ups where both characters lack a vortex” because there isn’t. you don’t need to have demon flips and dive kicks to have a vortex, you just need something that crosses up/ hits ambiguously/safe against 4f reversals. almost every character in this game has one and it can be used as a pseudo unblockable.
EDIT
if you mean in street fighter games in general then yeah, i agree. but in sf4 that would be a bad decision as i’ve stated already why.
Not every knockdown leads to the same oki game. Even the same exact move (yes, even Akuma’s sweep) will have different setups depending on spacing/timing. If you’re getting knocked-down repeatedly, chances are you just don’t know your options or the matchup well enough. There is a lot of information out there about setups, but much less information about how to escape said setups.
yeah when ryu knocks you down its a 50/50 gues game like almost every other normal character but if seth knocks you down you have a 33% chance to gues right (he can grab you,SPD you or DP with that insane invincibillity) ,same shit with akuma i think its even worse
This.
Not every character with a crossup has a vortex. Honda has a crossup, but I doubt he is a vortex character :razzy:.
Another thing - in Super Turbo Vega had a really nasty vortex game - just watch Mao winning last year’s ToL. So, vortex is a part of this game from the beggining.
The problem right now is that capcom kept nerfing non vortex characters like crazy, while the vortex ones weren’t. Sagat was nerfed to death in Super. Guile, Honda, Balrog, Bison, Chun Li, Dhalsim were heavily nerfed in AE. Fei, Yun and Yang were nerfed in v.2012.
Because of this the game right now is dominated by vortex chars. My idea is leave them alone, but buff the rest of the cast.
ryu has unblockables on certain characters with jump in fierce after f.throw (timing is weird) and in the corner basically every character has an unblockable. seth has that dive kick and jump in hk (i think it’s hk) and a bevy of options. imo, akuma has the best vortexes in the game and even though he has like a million different setups that lead to unblockables he doesn’t even really need it since the demonflip divekick’s angle, hitbox and hit/block stun are so good that it beats most reversals or makes them whiff. he is a fun character though and has some nice looking combos.
i’m not hating on any characters but seriously, without vortexes, this game would lose too much interest and its scene would shrink. remember when sf4 vanilla came out and there were lots of time outs? people hadn’t learned to take advantage of this technique and the gameplay ended up more towards the ‘lame’ (aka: hella safe) side. sf4’s system mechanics force you to take advantage of OS and vortexes because it’s the best option to keep momentum, do damage, and stay as safe as possible. it’s probably best to leave it as is but if they decide to update it and not mess with the system but just do another balancing act, i’m done with this game and i’m sure a lot of other people will lose interest in it. so if they take out the vortex they better put something else in it’s place that doesn’t feel so cheap and keeps the game exciting.
if they buff the rest of the cast it could be more interesting but that’s a lot of work and it would need a lot of testing. honda does have good chip damage from hands so he can stay at a jabs distance after knockdown and not jump in every time but his buttslam is pretty good against chars like guile and can be confusing on which direction you should block. i wouldn’t consider him a ‘vortex’ character but he still has them and should use them when the situation arises.
i’ve seen ST vega’s endless pressure with his wall dive shenanigans but that game is unforgiving and has ToD combos and matches usually last like a minute. he kinda needs that. every sf game has its good stuff and its bullshit and sf4’s is its… well a lot of stuff and not just the glitch with wake up positions changing before you’re actually able to block.
The vortex should stay. If anything, the cast should be buffed to balance the importance between ground play and okizeme.
Anyway, vortex is a consequence of the game’s mechanics (being able to link jabs/shorts into a hard knock-down move), it’s impossible to simply “remove” it.
The rest of the cast should be buffed, I agree with that. Better options to escape the vortex, and better option to punish when you guess correctly. Nothing should be free.