Fuck whoever came up with that word, people been spitting it out as an excuse for losing a bit too much lately.
the problem isnt vortexes, but some character’s wake up are either too slow for their own good, like juri,…or,
a character cant do shit because they dont have a good reversal…like juri, lol.
i know that as a juri mainer, i dread seeing a ibuki as my opponent. i know kunai vortex is coming…and that with juri’s slow as snails wake up, and her ex pinwheel having bullshit few frames of invincibility, if i get knocked down even once, i’m doomed.
while cammy, a character you cant even cross up ever, due to her super fast wake up, and her gdlk dp, she’s near impossible to vortex.
if lets say gief has a slow wake up, who cares. his damage output and life are high enough for him to survive. plus he has lariat. so even if he gets vortexed, he may survive and comeback to win.
but as for a character like juri…
a character that is that easy to stun, has that low of health, and no true reversal, should NOT HAVE SUCH A SLOW WAKE UP!
seriously.
one knockdown equals death.
capcom be trolling juri users.
That’s not a vortex.
By like, the very definition of a vortex.
Yup 50 / 50 guessing is not a vortex.
The character must have multiple options to make the opponent guess and lead to another knockdown.
The problem is not the vortex itself, it’s the lack of risk. Take Viper for instance, she has a powerful vortex, but if you guess right a few times, she’s dead. Akuma on the other hand can vortex you for free and if you guess right the only reward is the reset of the situation.
Sarcasm aside…most of these posts are fucking stupid with some good points here and there.
Vortex buzzword is getting so very stale. metallica and m16 are spot on. Gouki is virtually the only character in the game with a vortex and it’s been neutered to hell and back. IMO you can’t even call his mix up game a vortex anymore if tatsu, sweep doesn’t work in the match up with the palm nerf.
Guessing between a jump in, crouching low, and throw is not a 50/50. A vortex isn’t multiple guessing options that lead into knockdowns either. A vortex is a number of mix up options that all lead into the exact same (or close to) amount of mix up options. Seth doesn’t get anywhere near the amount of options he has off SPD when he does a BnB. Powerful resets don’t make one have a vortex either (though they can end in another reset, a reset is…well, a reset.) While Cammy drives me nuts, she is not exactly a mix up monster (unless you’re unfortunate enough to have an unblockable off throw against you.) While her set ups put her in a good position for pressure regardless of quick standing, she can’t reliably cross up everywhere if you know how to vary your quick stand. If you wanna go for a new word for pressure vortex then I guess you can.
Health as a balance measure can work, but it is hard to do. The main problem Gouki and Seth have right now is that Capcom did not adjust their health/stun after Vanilla. If I had to give them new health/stun values for 2012, it probably would be 800/750 for Gouki and 750/800 for Seth (and undoing some nerfs/buffs.) But taking away the monster zoning of Seth and giving him 900 stun with off the walls damage buffs pretty much says "rush down plz."
Super: Tanden, (90/200)cst.HP xx (10+100/200)HK Hyakuretsu…
2012: Tanden, (75/100)cst.MP, (90/200) cst.HP xx (20+130/200) HK Hyakuretsu…
(was going to do scaling but Hyakuretsu scales differently and I don’t want to boot without my HDD…)
Doesn’t work with Cammy since she has 950 in both fields for some reason.
Giving characters better options to escape the “vortex” is a bad idea in general with few exceptions. This has been brought up before by other good posters, you gain waaay more than intended.
Cammy + Akuma + Seth on Knockdown:
Overhead
Divekick
Command Grabs
High / Lows
Crossups
Ambiguous Setups
Unblockables
Slides
Free Pressure
Safe Setups
OS
Every single “Vortex” character has the option to apply more than one of those on every knockdown with minimal risk. (Though I do agree Seth has to take risks) You can stuff DP’s, Bait teleports and escape options and outright strip your opponent of any wakeup options. If they guess right, they return to Neutral. IF they guess wrong, they lose health and it begins again.
Why is no one talking about Ibuki.
She is a legit vortex character.
You guess left, right, safe jump low, I’ll give it to you that her overhead can be reacted to.
She even has a target combo, ensuring she’s gonna get that knockdown again if she hits you with the kunai.
Almost every single one of her tools lead to hard knockdown.
Focus Backdash
Teleport
You have safe options to escape her Vortex. She can’t apply multiple options on wakeup. She applies one or the other. Not both.
What the hell kind of question is this? Until it’s either patched out, or a superior option is developed, off course you should. Refusing to do so is borderline scrubby.
If she comes at you with a safe jump instead of Kunai, I think she can OS your backdash.
Isn’t focus backdash like, frame perfect?
Teleport is character specific.
The term vortex as it applies to SFIV was coined by Sabin in this thread.
He used it to describe knockdown mixups that are hard to escape if you don’t guess right. He specifically mentioned his experiences vs Gouki, Abel and Zangief, and strangely enough Mizoteru’s Blanka (although I just thinking he was referencing the strength of Mizoteru’s knockdown game, not Blanka’s). It was pretty much implied that the result of a vortex mixup left you in another situation where you had to guess (he often spoke of how he got vortexed to death). The safety of the mixup options had nothing to do with it. The gist of it was “guess right, or get knocked down and guess again”.
In his own words:
Back then, noone outside of Japan was abusing the knockdown game because everywhere else people were still complaining about OP DPs, auto-correct specials, and the large reversal window. However Ranix, a French Ryu player who was living in Japan at the time automatically knew what Sabin was talking about, especially regarding the Gief vortex.
The only “vortex” that actually has a name in Japan is Gouki’s, which is called “Tokido-shiki” (Tokido-style), as he was the one who popularized that style of play with Gouki. Gouki was actually considered low-tier when he was revealed. I believe the Japanese considered his biggest strength to be “running away”. source: top Japanese player’s (now defunct) blog soon after Gouki was revealed.
But you still have the options and your odds of escaping are a lot higher compared to Gouki. In order for Ibuki to OS the backdash she needs to commit to the safe jump. She can’t do them both, so in that situation, just blocking would be fine.
Look at high level players, how much of a factor is Ibuki’s vortex? Not that much, cause high level players are very effective at defending it. However even the best players succumb to the Gouki vortex, cause your only defense is guessing right and if you guess wrong you lose a ton of life and it repeats.
I’m pretty sure if Ibuki’s vortex was as weak as that, Sako wouldn’t have dropped Cammy for her.
Watch Sako play Ibuki, then watch Tokido play Akuma. See whose vortex is used more and is more effective.
I never said Akuma’s vortex wasn’t effective, or even less effective.
Just making sure no one doubts the 16 year old Japanese girl with Kunai in her backpack.
Soyonono is a great example.
Pretty much this. A large part of the reason why Akuma’s vortex is so good is because he truly has an option to counter every wakeup option in the game.
On the other hand, two significant disadvantages of Ibuki’s vortex are:
- lack of a vortex armor break, like Demon Flip Palm
- inability to option select if she throws a kunai, unlike Demon Flip Palm
This means she instantly loses the ability to properly vortex characters who have teleports (Seth, Bipson, etc.), or characters with good wakeup armor moves, such as Boxer’s EX dash punches, and pretty much everyone can FA dash out. Really the only way she can option select is if she goes for a jumpin normal instead, or a safe jump, and these are significantly less ambiguous (imo). Technically she does have air target combos, but they don’t stop you from simply doing wakeup FA backdash as well as DF Palm would.
Not saying that Ibuki doesn’t have a strong vortex, but just pointing out the differences between the two. Imo, at a high level, Ibuki is less of an actual vortex character and more of an unblockable machine (see Sako). She has unblockables on most of the cast, and can usually set one up off a Neckbreaker anywhere on the screen, and are relatively easy to time; compared to other unblockables which are like corner specific and simply guessing on the timing. Anyways I’m going on a tangent so I’ll stop here.
…lol, that is a better troll than anything I can come up with. I’m speechless. :clapdos:
I was over exaggerating, not trolling.