"Time to get serious!" Hakan Match-up Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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I agree with Bakkd, this part of forum isnt receving the necessary attention that should has. But write about a matchup isnt easy at all.

I wrote something nice about the Guy match in other post so I will repost here, perhaps there is a lot more to talk about it.

Guy pressure can be infinite but it is not safe. I fight against a lot of good Guy`s and one of my best friends is one of them. Firstable you got to know what kind of pressure the Guy player use more often:
If he use elbow drop pressure you got to choose Ultra 2 to scary him, but there are other ways to stop that:
1-You can time your Oil Slides to beat the Elbow Drop or escape the pressure or corner, if you dominate that you wont have problems with that anymore.
2-You can use Stand HP as anti air but that recquire a lot of precision cause Guy can cancel his flip in elbow drop.
3-You can Duck under with Forward MP or Forward Dash and SPD him, but that one is really hard to do.
4-Only defend is a good choice too.^^
5- Using FADNC is nice but he can grab you with the flip so dont use that a lot.
And there is a tip against this kind of pressure: Do NOT stay Stand if he is close to you in the flip move cause he can grab you so stay crouched.

There is the Run Stop pressure, that is the kind offensive that good Guy players use cause they can frame trap you with Crouch HP,MP and Stand MP and they can overhead or Slide FADC.
The best way to stop that is wait the Run Stop and immediately punish him with Crouch LP into LP Oil Slide, but if you think that you got enough reaction use SPD. Yes you can Punish that shit.^^
And you can stop his overhead move with Crouch jab too. ^^

Footsies: With oil Guy cant handle your footsies , cause you can use FADNC in his best pokes, just dont get to predictable with focus cause Hozanto got armor break properties and some of them are safe on block unless you use Ultra 1, but it is pretty hard to punish on reaction.
Unoiled: Guy can use his normal Slide and that is a terrific poke if used correctly but you can beat that with Stand HP, but pay attention cause Guy got other nice tools such as his Stand MK and MP that got a pretty good startup and priority.

Guy Wakeup: You can safe jump him after a Oil Slide walk a little bit back and Jump forward with HK.
DDT setups are nice too just dont abuse cause Guy got a nice backdash so they usually use.
Safe Slide are good too, cause after they defend you can baited him or go for SPD or if you fell confident use Ultra 2 cause will catch his backdash , Jumps and his best Reversals.
Use meaty moves are always a good option to vary your offensive and go for a more safest option.
Mix up all that and they are in trouble.

Your Wakeup: Take care with his frame traps cause they are dangerous. BackDash is a nice option even if you you are unoiled. Pay attention with Forward Jump Medium Kick Crossup this can be really dangerous when they mixed up with Elbow Drop but Ultra 2 can handle that. Back-DNC is always good, nobody expect that and a lot of people do not even understand what happen.^^

Other tips: You can punish Guy overheads and normal slide when defended with Oiled SPD . Normal Slide made in max Range is almost unpunishble, my friend dominate that ~~. Normal slide used really close can be punished with Light version normals.
Pay attention in what the Guy player do after a defended Hozanto to counter his next move.
Guy does have some kind of DDT Setup , but there are few setups. Be aware.
Guy can jump in the wall so Ultra2 can be baited in the corner, pay attention.

I would be really grateful if other players add more stuff to his matchup. And please if I wrote something wrong correct me immediately.

162

I agree with everything you wrote, excellent work. I don’t really have a lot of trouble with Guy either since I do a lot of the stuff you wrote, heh. But the key to winning over Guy really is just having more knowledge, so your tips are pretty damn good since once you know about how to deal with his moves it does get a lot easier.

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jiuplayer good stuff.
good that someone is finally adding more match-up knowlege to this… beside my trolling infos :wink:
the key for hakan to win consistently is alway knowledge power.

Guy in general is not such a big threat once you get use to playing aginst guy, everything you mentioned is spot on.
The only hard part are the attacking Guy. but then this comes down how good your dry defences are… like any other hard match-ups.

GG

164

While we’re on the subject of Guy, it’s worth mentioning that he has a wonky jump arc. I’m sure everyone is already aware of this, but it usually takes me (personally) a couple of rounds where I constantly smack myself in the forehead and say, “That’s right, his jump is weird and he CAN crossup from that far!”

165

You know, I usually do F.MP/F.HK (Fuck yeah Drew!) into SPD/U1 or just to get out of his pressure.

166

some epic vs zangief battle last night with probably the best zangief in the country.
4-6 to giefs way, but overall its good for hakan.

vs Zangief 2012

it was good to utilise mordies trick, mordie you’ve done it again! :slight_smile:
[ slide-press > n.jump > f.lk (CH) > flk > slide ]
-the first f.lk will CounterHit if giefs wakeup lariat/jump/tech
and then follow with f.lk~slide after CH
-2012 made this setup better as you can easily do mk/lk.dive after n.jump as mix up

another must utilise setup is:
[ slide-press > walk back tiny twitch > n.j.hp ]
-if done it correctly its safe jump to lariate and ex.green.hand
-if oiled, you can trick them after blocking n.j.hp walk forward a bit and twist rocket
-if they block n.j.hp,can also do uncrouchable lk/mk.dive
-this setup is better/safer than doing the [ slide-press > c.mp > n.j.hk/f.j.hk ].

The important thing is to make sure they know that if they wake up and do ex.green hand and lariate and spd, they will lose to uncrounchables/safe meaty jump hp FIRST. Then you can move on to do other setups so they hesitate to ex.green.hand for your mix ups.

other tips to share:
-if gief start to do c.lp/c.lk on wake up to avoid uncrouchables, mix the uncrouchable moments with c.hk, and uncrouchable choices again.
-to win this you really need to abuse the uncrouchables, hence you need to get your timing/setup right.
-f.hp is exceptionally good when DRY, especially when cornered lol
-[ FDNC~c.mp > rockets ] can be quite effective instead s.lp/c.lk due to the fact that the gief can mesh spd hakans link strings.
-n.j.hp/n.j.mp is good to stop him gaining grounds, and to bait him to do f.hk to come in as that’ll hit your n.j.moves. if done correctly, baiting their f.hk out when you land on the gound, you can do c.mk > slide punish.
BUT still, giefs f.hk will be one of the thing hakan will bitch about besides the normal spd bs range.
-if conered, and u get a [ slide-press ], do hk.dive to get out (punishable but ex.green hand only), and or do mordies jump-over options.
-close range on giefs wake up, mix up sometimes do jump back mk, you’ll need to learn this trick as alternative counter for giefs wake up lariate.

hopefully i can upload the videos to share if i come up with some recording material…

167

Had more vs zangief matchs, and i got a 2 new safe jump setup!

SAFE JUMPS:

[ slide-press > walk back tiny step > n.j.hp ]

[ slide-press > c.lk > n.j.hp ]

[ dive > c.hk > n.j.hp ]

-these setup timing is very easy and consistent to do!!
-hits opponent on wake up standing/crouch/jump/spd/U1
-lariate & green-hand will whiff/block

GG!

update:
setup > n.j.hp OS sliding!
this would kill his back-dash option!
only loses to ex.hand if you go for this! :slight_smile:

168

Ah, Chron has asked me to update the MU thread…I don’t know if this involves making a new one or what, is there a way to edit the posts?

Might go for it, I have my own ideas for each MU…anyone object to me taking over? haha

169

Please do it for the love of god.

170

yakult this Zangief knowledge is really good, I will note and try later.

Drew I think that you should do it. You got knowledge to do such a hard job.
You could post one MU and wait for everyone who wants to give more tips and add knowledge, then the MU would be much more complete. That way would be great in my opinion.

171

Cool, do you guys want me to lay it out like Chron has for each one? Or just write thoughts on the matchup?

172

i think it’ll be best with some sort of structured out post like chrons.
maybe a notes section at the end of the post for any remaining ideas and tips, but not just a post of it all.

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Thing is though I feel like a lot of it will be a copy and paste, the only new stuff will be differences in 2012…just thinking how I should do this…

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I think the changes in matchups will also involve the changes not just to hakan but the rest of the cast as well … one major example is how the hitboxes on mid hitting focus attacks have been lowered so that they no longer whiff on moves with reduced hitboxes with low attacks… (I particularly noticed this with juri when I had my set with drew at shadowloo showdown) …
another example would be how somemoves have become 2 hits now like Guy’s overhead, which affects your parry game.
also alot of the matchups in the thread are theory based, nice on paper but when it comes to practicality its a different matter.

If I may suggest a few things that need to be covered for every character. (this will include things from the past as well as some other ideas )

  • options when starting the round. ( this is particularly important now as you have oil on start up. and it gets more valuable when you have EX meter to burn)
  • match strategy according to distance: (in their face, mid screen, full screen, corner, ground-air, air-air). in this section we would cover not only the options from knockdown, but the desired distance to be in (the sweet spot where the opponent is weakest). the options WITH and WITHOUT oil. and what to look out for in every range (basicly also including your opponents options for better knowledge). and what NOT to do.
  • options after knockdown (are there some broken situations that would limit an opponent with a poor wake up option ? etc… )
  • the ultra of choice (and why)
  • character specific punishes to normals, specials, supers and ultras. ( drew if you recall we did quite a comprehensive setup when 2012 first came out on how to deal with blanka balls now… ) … this is particularly useful … and with hakans new amazing LK dive there are alot of punishes not previously there in the older versions… I added a few with the matchups I was learning when I was mentioning my progress with him but I dont see why this cant be done with the whole cast.
  • safe jump options and alterations. (this would also include the opponents options and how to deal with them… for example what would you do if you see a cannon strike whiff with cammy ? another would be, is there an OS that would both punish their reversal and cover the options on hit AND block of the jump HK ? such as j.HK, MK dive OS) another thing to consider is that when people catch on to the matchup they start to do strange things to afoid thes setups such as hitting a low or dashing forward… its good to know these things from players experienced in specific match ups.
  • when to oil (although this would be covered in the matchup strategy it does require emphasis as some characters give you free oil chances from certain ranges even without knockdown)
  • anti- airing of choice: again this can range from parry, to acctual anti airing, to ultra2 or EX SPD on safe jumps, to going for making the opponent whiff when an anti air is inconsistant (using f.MP , cr.HP, f.HK etc) or even sliding your way out of harms way)
  • setup alterations: for example 80% of the setups dont work in the hakan mirror… also, some characters wakups can make certain specific setups whiff… another would be character specific setups where that particular setup would really limit the opponents options.

I think If we could compile the knowledge in this particular format. not only would the matchups be further understood, alot of what was previously been thought to be tough or unsolvable would have some sort of a work around…

Drew, i mentioned in the (how does it feel to be playing low tier… ) thread about our intense sets with hakan vs sim and hakan vs juri at shadowloo and i would be more than glad to work with you on a write up on those 2 specific matchups and even get online and experiment like we did with blanka. I think we both learned alot of things from those sets, both in terms of how to deal with sim and juri, and what options those particular characters have to limit hakans momentum… they were awesome sets and I think if there was one good thing i took from that horrid day at the shadowloo qualifiers, it was that we got to play those matches … :slight_smile: GGs.

175

drew i recon the updated matchup post should be exactly ‘update’.
So you’ll probably still use some points outlined by original chrons post and add updated info/tips/setups etc.
u can restructure whatever you feel like but since it’ll be dedicated one vs character per post then its best to have mutiple sections within post to make it easier to read.

i m thinking sections like:
-general matchup knowledge & character move punishes
-[setups > safe-jump & kicks] SETUPS
-uncrouchable
-safe slide
-alternative setups
-other tips.

So yea at the end its still gonna be similar to chrons layout lol.

176

Yea I just don’t have the time to do full out matchups anymore and my SF4 play has been increasingly low. I look forward to see what you create for a few matchups and I appreciate taking up the challenge. Thanks everyone for the kinds words but this is now way out of date and probably wont help anyone anymore, haha. Need any small help Drew, LMK.

177

btw can i ask who is a moderater here that had been attentive to hakan communities?
Justt think that the stickies needs to be updated. we still have the old jap setups from 2 years ago lol.

and if the new match-up write up is updated, maybe need to un-sticky this one to archive link to the new sticky post etc.
i really hate 50 page of one thread discussions over different versions of game lol
its probably better to start new post and and archive link old version stuffs etc.

178

Haha ok I’ll add new matchup stuff here for the moment, if a new thread is started then I’m sure it can all be moved over. Chron I think I’ll probably use a similar layout to yours, because it’s brilliant…but like I said it would mean a lot of the stuff would be a copy and paste, so I’ll try and keep it interesting and just post what’s necessary and we’ll find a way to put it together?

Sounds good?

And heh sorry I haven’t posted…had that SFxT bug…

179

Okay let’s get this started

Abel

Ultra selection
Ultra 1

Overview

Abel used to be considered one of Hakans worst match ups in Super, but now I feel like Hakan does really well against him. This is a match up I’ve played countless times, and it’s also helped that I played Abel for over a year and got to a pretty decent level with him. Let’s look at this from a general Abel point of view shall we?..‘Oh look, it’s Hakan, knock him down, and this is free!’…in Super this may have had a little substance, but now it’s much more balanced than that.

Because of hakans changes to his oil dives, and the fact that he’s oiled a lot longer, his mix up game has become much more potent. Sadly for Abel, this has probably had the most dramatic effect in matchup terms. Basically, Abel can’t use any reversals, aside from the risky EX falling Sky, to avoid oil dives…EX TT, EX roll, EX CoD, normal roll…TT, they all get beat. But wait, at least he can backdash out right? Nope, because there’s now the all purpose dives. So this means, in a lot of instances, his only option is to attempt to crouch normal on wake-up. I won’t hesitate in saying this but if you score a knockdown on Abel, go in. Just go for it, pressure him with oil dives, then add in some safe slide pressure/Oil Rockets. If he has meter then watch out for EX TT, but this is easily baited out. Try to OS grab/dive off of jump ins to catch any EX roll/backdash attempts. Abel struggles against pressure, so pressure him. Once he’s been forced into relying on crouching normals, he’s at your mercy. Use meaty attacks, Oil Rockets, Safe jumps, frametraps…and you can end, or at least take a lot of life from him.

So ok, that makes it sound pretty easy for hakan, but definitely that isn’t the case. I feel this matchup is all about the knockdown, TT/normal throw is what abel will be using to set up his mixups. Hakan can easily stop Abels approach while he’s oiled, and make it really difficult to get in. You can frustrate Abel using this tactic, and score some easy knockdowns of your own. I feel like hakan gets knockdowns slightly easier Abel, so scout for that far range f.hk, or f.mp into slide.

If abel does score a TT against you, hakan has some really good options against the mixup. backdash is an obvious one, although you might end up forward dashing, so it’s still a guess in the end. A better one to use would be backdash parry, because if Abel ends on either side, you’ll blow through any normal, including crouching hp, as long as that’s a backdash cancel. EX rocket is also a good option, and if you can nail this early on, you’ve put a massive dent into his game, because now he’s likely to jump, which allows you to backdash out for free, or you could wait…and punish the jump in. Little things like this can go a long way.

Footsies wise hakan wins, simple. In general, I feel like Oiled hakan is too strong for Abel, he has too many options. The sad thing for Abel is that focus attack is godlike against stepkick, if you land level 1 focus against stepkick, which isn’t difficult at all…he’s in trouble. Stepkick leaves Abel standing so in this position you can use Hakans vast array of standing resets you like, which lead to horrendous damage, then a knockdown…then another mixup. You really can make Abel’s life a misery.

Advanced Tactics

So if you block a stepkick, you’re usually worried about TT. Never be afraid to backdash, hakan has one of the best in the game while Oiled, so make use of this. You’re also best off, against a very acute Abel player, to use backdash into CC. This is good because it completely ducks under stepkicks, and gives you a free command grab/ultra punish, so adapt to the situation. Another sneaky option, if you have good reactions, is to use EX dive, which will completely stuff any normal throw/TT attempts after step kicks, for a HUGE momentum swing. Again, if Abel is at that standing light kick/step kick range, just let the focus go, he has nothing there that will mess you up aside from a random wheel kick. Speaking of which, if you block wheel kicks, reversal with LK Oil Dive.

If you find yourself out of oil, you’re still OK, use st.hp, st.mp to keep Abel at bay, and try and create some space for yourself…if you have meter if might be worth doing an EX cancel because the difference between Oiled Hakan vs Abel and Unoiled Hakan vs Abel is huge. So make it count.

The reason I choose Ultra 1 against Abel is because it’s so easy to get in, if you’re confident with your Ultra setups, you can make a safe bet you’re going to get a ton of chances to land one. One advanced tactic is to focus through stepkick, and then reset into ultra off say a st.mp for example. Not difficult at all, but the payoff is huge. You need to be thinking along these lines as a Hakan player, get creative!

If you’re fullscreen and Abel has ultra 1, don’t use LK Oil, bait him out with an EX cancel, and score a heavy punish.

Okay thoughts? Anything I’m missing, should add in? Should I make the rest of them like this?

180

I think a list of all of setup moves will be nice. Something like what dives catches all. safe slides etc…