Tiers for non-fighting games?

The problem with Eternal Sphere is 1) The stars count as Star-elemental so some enemies are strong against it (like Gabriel Celeste) 2) The stars sometimes push Claude or the enemy back too far which can mess up attempts at trapping the enemy in hitstun.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, it still rapes most enemies in the game but there are some problems with it.

I don’t see why Air Slash being a KM is any kind of a problem at all. It only costs 4 MP, or 2 MP with 1/2 MP reducing item.
Plus, it’s fast, full-screen, and homes in on your target. You don’t even have to risk getting up close like with Claude (which you definitely DON’T want to do with someone like Indalecio). As long as you have supporting fighters with good KMs, Air Slash works just fine at pinning down enemies.
Not saying Claude isn’t top tier. He’s still probably the best in the game. But Dias is underrated way too often.

Point taken, No disrespect to Dias. I guess I’d have to fix my tierlist to accomdate him (I’ll make some other changes as well):

Star Ocean 2 Tierlist v2

[S] Claude, Opera
[A] Chisato, Bowman
** Rena, Precis, Dias, Ashton
[C] Celine, Leon
[D] Ernest
[NOEL TIER] Noel

S/A tier is changed to what I see as the optimum party, that being Opera on point with claude/chisato/bowman controlled by the AI. A tier is not S because they’re easily replaced by B-tier precis/dias, who aren’t as good (no weird slayer is probably the biggest reason) but still pretty good. Not having either of the S-tier characters really changes how you fight, while not having either of the A-tier characters isn’t as big of a deal.

Where to put Ashton is a tricky thing. He’s as good as Chisato/Bowman in my eyes, but he’s mutually exclusive with Opera, which means he requires B-Tier Rena to enter the party to be your healer. As a stand-alone character he is A tier, but I put him in B tier because of his effects on the party.

It’s also weird to rank Rena, because if you have Opera she is not very useful to your party and would probably slip down a tier, but if you don’t have Opera she would probably slide up a tier, kicking Bowman or Chisato out of your optimal party. You can’t use the stand-alone ranking with her because she is terrible as solo character (Anyone who did the first dungeon in her storyline on Universe difficulty will understand what I’m talking about…)

I put Opera S-tier for similar reasons. She can replace rena for HP-healing purposes in the second half of the game, and if you keep your item inventory straight you can use items to make an adequate replacement for Rena’s status-effect healing spells. Having four fighters in the party is a great advantage. As a stand-alone character should would not be S, as her role in the party is to keep everyone’s HP up and lock down fast-moving enemies with alpha on one.

I’ll admit that for the 3 super-bosses I gave Claude the Levantine Sword instead of the ES. I think even without that though, his hit % keeps him S-tier, as that’s EXTREMELY important against Iselia Queen because of the stars she shoots back at you on block.

Anyone remember midway’s the grid? A friend and I were legit incredible at the game and I think I’ve got a solid tier list for it. btw when i say “gets out of [something]” i mean with their special move.

God
Sub-Zero - Special is the best in the game (arguably). Activate it and spin 360. Hits anything that is even remotely close to him and its an instant kill since they’re frozen FOREVER. Can get out of horn BS and I think shotgun dance / hit stun.
Cameraman - Great basic gun. Second best special. Gets out of horn and anything else you can throw at him. Special is almost instant. He doesnt need to even finish the animation most of the time. Gets out of any BS (horn, shotgun shit)

Top
Trixi - Turns invincible for her special. Yes you can still see her shadow but its REALLY tough. Fast recovering. Decent basic gun. Really her special makes her great. Small hitbox.
Wes - Awesome basic gun…probably 3rd best. His special is probably the 3rd best special in the game. He can take ANY weapon, even Golden Shotgun (he cant get it but it gets rid of it from them). Recovers REALLY fast. I think hes better than trixi but others tell me different. Can get out of Horn BS and anything else you can throw at him.
Red Dog 6 - Best basic gun in the game. Better tracking / harder hitting special than Karasu.
Cyrus - Gets out of horn BS. Special does whiff sometimes / not track. Awesome basic gun.
Noob - Mediocre basic gun. Yes you can get out of his special but its not easy. Has to be close to use his special. Best against the CPU Towers :stuck_out_tongue:

High top
Ike - Same basic gun as cameraman. gets out of horn bs but not shotgun hit stun with special. special has a ginormous hitbox and does decent damage but the recovery he has on it makes it hard to kill after he hits with it.
Flint - His run special is GREAT and gets him out of a LOT of problems. Just as many as cameraman if not more. However, its hard to actually hit them with it. No tracking on it. For straight run away Flint is the best and unmatched.

Middle
Kristy - Best of the 3 cheerleaders. Special is the strongest of the 3 cheerleaders. All 3 shockwaves from the cheerleaders send them far enough away that darlas extra distance is moot. ALL 3 cheerleaders have awesome basic weapons.
Karasu - A worse special then Red Dogs and not so solid basic weapon. If you’re close, the special is decent.
Scorpion - Special gets out of horn bs. however, aiming with the small hitbox of the special is ridiculous. if the person is decent with the horn, you aint gettin out of it. Basic gun HURTS though.
Trom - Instant kill special but you have to be like point blank. I dont member his basic gun but i think its just like ikes… i forget
Chiller - Solid SOLID basic gun. But his special is just like they got lazy. He jumps far away? cool. Id be tempted to put him in middle bottom since hes a runaway character but flint does it so much better.

Middle Bottom
Gridman - Awesome basic gun but his special sucks since if you use it, you cant shoot :-/
Darla - Weakest special out of the 3 but sends them the farthest. The extra distance is really hard to notice
Cleo - Average of the 3 cheerleaders. Nothing special.

Bottom
April - HUGE startup on special and HUGE recovery. Run away type special that does a really shitty job at it. Horrible basic gun.

Shit tier
Host - What the fuck were they thinking? Worst special in the game. Cant even control him when you activate it. bad basic gun
Lawyer - Second best for CPU escapades cause of the money he can steal. Other than that he is horrible and only pick if you want a handicap.

I’m curious, is the eternal sphere the only reason you rank Claude so high. Cause Angel Armbands pretty much makes any character with a faster normal attack better than him anyway.

[media=youtube]xdF-cI_WbH4[/media]

Ashton disagrees with your rankings. I’m pretty sure his attack is roughly twice as fast as Claude’s. And since Dias has possibly the slowest attack in the game, he can’t spam such game-breaking tactics.

I use Dias’ Air Slash for locking down enemies from a safe distance, and Chaos Sword when I feel ballsy and want to get in close. And since those KM’s cost 4 & 5 MP respectively, he’s not going to run out of MP for a while. And since the game offers an abundance of healing items, he usually takes the role of healer too.

Oh yeah, and Slayer Rings, those goddamn Slayer Rings. :pray:Slayer Rings and :pray:Angel Armbands are better than any character in this game.

I think Claude is tops for his KM’s, especially Ripper Blast.

Without a doubt Ripper Blast is tops, its only flaw being it’s relatively high mp cost. But he was only bringing up Eternal Sphere as the reason why he was so good, when there are other characters who serve that purpose better, like Ashton.

pretty accurate Luminous Arc 2 Tier list if anyone cares :stuck_out_tongue:

[S] Althea, Fatima
[A] Philip, Ayano, Roland, Karen
** Sadie, Josie, Therese, Luna, Potpourri, Richter
[C] Gaston, Rina, Dia, Kaph
[D] Alice, Rasche

This thread gave me an awesome idea, there should be a COD4 gun tier list. I didn’t read the entire thread, so my bad if there’s already been one.

But there’s a strong chance stuff like that could trigger a flame war due to sad experience swith P90s and M16s…:rofl:

I actually use Claude with no KMs towards the end of the game. His normal attack is better than almost any of them IMO. He does still have some really good ones though.

Is that video on normal mode? Because playing on Universe is a lot different. The sparks from the ES / Angel Armband actually do 0 damage in that fight (Gabrie / Iselia / Unlim Indy all have star immunity probably for that reason), so I gave Claude the Levantine Sword instead. The stars don’t help in that fight at all. In fact, I think they hurt because they can still trigger her counter-attack. I guess the reason I think the ES is so powerful is because it gets you through 95% of the game ridiculously easily even on universe mode. Only if you’re doing Gabrie / Iselia / Unlim Indy would you ever even think about using a different weapon for him.

I dunno if you saw my note about Ashton, but his rank would be misleading no matter where I put him. He is A or even S as a solo character but at the end of the day I made him B because I think “Claude, Opera, Chisato, Bowman” is a better party than “Claude, Rena, Ashton, Chisato”. No caster = better, and if you have Ashton you can’t have Opera, so you need to kick Bowman for Rena. Basically you gain one of the best individual characters but you also lose two of the best characters. (Unless you come up with some crazy balls-out party, like “Claude, Ashton, Chisato, Bowman”… but you’re basically going all-or-nothing, and if things start going wrong you’re fucked…)

The reason I like him so much is because hit % is so important at the end of the game, especial against Universe mode Iselia because if she blocks your attack she counter-attacks with stars, just like the ones the ES shoot. If she gets on a block string your frontline fighters can all die REALLY fast. My approach to her was to use Claude with the Levantine Sword as the “nutcracker” so to speak. He has a really high hit % naturally, so he can get past Iselia’s high block rating. Then use Chisato / Bowman’s mutli-hit KMs to keep her in hitstun. I controlled Opera most of the time though, and ran around shooting alpha on one, which is really good because it’s another multi-hit KM and it chases her around the map, so if he gets away she will have to block the move still and wont have time to cast a spell (which can sometimes be insta gg if she gets one off). When shit goes wrong I used her healing star KM twice to top everyone off, then used her as the item handler for when someone dies / gets petrified. I also had her wear status protective accessories instead of combat ones so she would stay alive and not get petrified (Iselia’s physical attacks all have a chance to petrify and poison).

Ahhh, so your tiers are based on a Universe run, my bad.

I’ll do the pure classes, Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir included. Note that the tier list is quite different from a tier list for pen-and-paper 3.5 because some things work differently.

S+

Cleric

S

Bard
Favored Soul
Sorcerer

A

Wizard
Fighter

B

Druid

C

Barbarian
Rogue
Ranger
Warlock
Spirit Shaman

D

Paladin
Swashbuckler

E

Monk

Switch Pip and Luna, and I’d pretty much agree.

It’s somewhat accurate, FE games are so hard to tier and that’s what I like about them. But considering that it came from GAFs, there will always be mistakes or questioning. They probably have this tier list without the use of arena abuse…

So let’s see:

Hawkeye over Dart? - Should never happen personally. Dart can be trained in HHM due to all the lance users in this game. He’ll get doubled attacked early in most situations, but his speed growth will vice versa that in no time at all.

Upper-Mid Lucius? - I can’t trust somebody with pathetic defensive growths to survive very long in HHM. And when I say pathetic I mean god awful, it’s Lyn 10x worse. Light magic is expensive, and the enemies have boosted stats in HHM so he won’t be the dodging machine he was in normal. The thing with Lyn is that she gets a cap of 30 speed, which almost always maxes. And since she’s a lord she just miiiight get some defensive blessing.

Lucius can only get 25 or somewhere around there. Not even an average unit for HHM, people are being sold on his C level bonus upon promo. Serra/Pris is better in the long run.

Kent/Sain/Lowen ranked in same tier? - Paladin lovers influenced this. Sain and perhaps Lowen is all you really need for HHM. Err…not really just use Sain, his only true weakness is poor skill (a stat that really isn’t too much important). Use Lowen if Oswin appears to be getting RNG screwed, you’ll need the defense. Kent just doesn’t have enough features about him to even be mentioned on par with Sain/Lowen.

Marcus Tops?! LOL? - Should never be TOPS. You’ll need him more in HHM no doubt, but being tops means that are strong/useful from beginning to end. Marcus is nowhere near that category on any mode.

Little too late? - Is getting Renault Fortify staff enough to make him low? Grab his staff and just forget about him, your team should be set in stone by the time you get him. He’s bottom.

When there’s a Wil there’s a way - Wil is a lot easier to train than Rebecca, even on LHM. On HHM you’ll get a decent enough Wil to continue his training, he’s no Rebeeca stat wise but you’ll need a sniper for the wyverns. They are clearly underestimating Wil’s potential.

Hector Nonsense - Eliwood over Hector? Now I really can’t take this list seriously. Hector is the best lord in the game, why would Eliwood top him? Especially in HHM, where there are more wyvern riders and cavaliers. Nonsense.

Erk vs. Pent - Fun matchup, it’s always random who wins out in the end - but at least with Pent I’m assured of what I’m getting. I love Erk but you have to be careful about his defense in HHM early on, I’d say he’s upper mid.

Going over the tier list (and yes, arena abuse is not taken into account, especially since arena abuse = no S rank)…

Yeah, Dart shouldn’t be bottom. At the very least, there is no way in hell he’s below Nino. The main issue with Dart is that you have to use the Ocean Seal (50,000 gold) to promote him, and that hurts Funds ranking more than promoting other characters. So he’s kinda stuck at Level 20 unpromoted.

Lucius has durability issues, but he has range so his crap defenses aren’t always an issue. He’s got good offense, and 25 cap Magic means nothing when you typically aren’t going to hit above Level 20/10. Yes, Erk is better, as is Serra and Priscilla. That’s why he’s below them all. He’s still a solid magic user.

The cavaliers are all solid, Kent included. Lowen’s got better support options than the others (most of which fix some of his offensive issues), plus he’s a mobile tank, so he’s better than Sain and Kent. And Marcus is High, not Top. He deserves that spot. His endgame stats are low, but his utility up until about midgame is amazing. Plus, as an end-game character, he’s stll better than pretty much everyone lower-mid and under.

I don’t see how Wil can be of much use. Archer is a bad class because they can’t counterattack in melee, Wil doesn’t have great speed, his affinity sucks, and he doesn’t have very good support options.

In Hector’s Mode, Eliwood is better. Hector’s late promotion drags him down some, plus Eliwood has the best promotion of the three. Eliwood doesn’t do too badly against Wyvern Lords once promoted, plus he’s got pretty good defenses. I do think Hector should jump up a few spots, though.

Erk has good speed and okay support options. His mediocre magic rating really isn’t a problem (enemies typically have low Resistance), and he’s by far the best option for offensive magic until Pent or until you promote a healer. Okay support options (mainly Priscilla). Mainly, though, helping the team early game > not being there early game, which is (most likely) why Erk gets the nod.

^Very solid points

Dart’s Ocean Seal can also be found in the desert chapter, just a few more chapters from when you get him. There would be no reason to waste funds by buying it, and even if you did you’d have to wait until like the end of the game to access the secret shop it’s in. If anything, I’d say Farina hurts your funds rating more because you gotta waste like 20,000g just to even use her - and without AA it’s really difficult to do.

For Lucius I meant his 24 cap speed sorry. Actually 25 magic is nothing to laugh at, and he’d be even better if his luck growth wasn’t 20%(which means he’s vulnerable to critical blows). Since you have so many other mages and magicians that are better, I think upper-mid is kinda pushing it (especially if they aren’t going to consider Canas w/Luna capabilities).

Sain’s strength is almost a guarantee max, combined with Lowen’s defense you have a formidable combination to where Kent just gets shutout. Sain really doesn’t need supporting options as he is viewed by many as the best paladin in the game. Lowen is good, but without supports to fix some mediocre areas he will not top Sain. Sain supports are like a bonus to his already outstanding potential. I think there should be just a “mid” tier for Marcus, because you will definitely need him for HHM especially earlier on. His usage as a “meat shield” is almost entirely negated. But Tops is I dunno, by mid-game you kinda have an idea of what your army is gonna look like…and if it involves Marcus then you probably used him too much than you should.

Wil just needs to be protected like any other archer (that isn’t named Rebecca, that is if trained) There will be an increase of wyverns that are vulnerable to Wils arrows, so you’ll pretty much be using him just for that case. Wil speed has a growth of 40% so it’s not thaaat bad, you must of got RNG screwed because so many other characters have that growth also. Wil just needs a chance, people never give him one though because so many mages are good in this game.

I just think Eliwood should not top Hector, even if the late promotion lowers him down a bit. You don’t get your first Heaven’s Seal until Chp 24ish, so that’s still a loong ways. By then, Eliwood is gonna have to grind it out because he can only use a sword - and wyverns/cavs will always have the advantage with lances. Hector’s Wolf Axe is soooo needed over Eliwood’s Rapier, you’ll probably break the axe by Chp.13 on HHM. Eliwood is still good though, I just think Hector should be tops/god or something.

That’s why I think people go with Erk. He’s the first mage you get that can exploit the enemies low resistance faster. The problem is that Erk has been on the receiving end of A LOT of RNG screws. I know PEMN (Personal Experience Means Nothing) factors in but I know a lot of people that say Erk is either useful or got ripped by the RNG. You get an idea of what Erk you’ll be getting if you train him in Lyn’s tale, that’s why I always do :smiley:

If those other characters not listed in a tiers are classified as tops, then that’s just kinda off too.

The Swordmaster nerf will still negate the HHM bonus for Guy, plus again too many lance users will best his swords.

Nin/Nil’s are good supports but they can’t even atk. And they are frail as hell, they cannot take much if any abuse in HHM.

Serra you can make a case for but she’ll take much work and time to develop into a Top character. She will need guarding up until she promotes at least.

Matthew over Legault should never happen. Legault will/should make the better assassin in the long run. The use of just as a “thief” should not classify a character as tops anyway. Legault gets the HHM bonus also.

Raven is the only one a can see passing into Tops. He gets the HHM bonus and decent stats all around - once promoted only a league of sages/druids will be able to down him, and there aren’t many mages/druids in this game like there are wyverns/cavaliers.

God tier:
Fruit Bazooka

Top Tier:
Double Jump
Super Tornado Spin

Mid Tier:
Super Belly Flop

Low Tier:
Speed Shoes

This is the tier list I’ve been waiting for :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m not sure how the funds rating works exactly, but using up 50,000 worth of gold to promote is definitely a hinderance since most everyone else requires only 20,000. And yes, Dart >>>>>> Farina. No argument. Dart should be middle of Low at the absolute worst.

Lucius > Canas because he comes earlier, can double, can occassionally evade, and has decent supports. Canas’ support options blow outside of Pent B. His speed is low, his offense isn’t that great, he can’t dodge due to low speed, luck, and really heavy tomes. Outside of Luna, Canas doesn’t have much going for him. Oh, might as well throw in the fact he has E in staves at promotion. Bleh.

Lowen’s real advantage is his tankiness. He’s very durable, with top notch HP, Luck, Defense, and Resistance (for a cavalier). I do agree that Sain is better than Kent, mostly because Kent’s lower luck basically nullifies any durability advantage he would have gained over Sain (Even with lower speed, I think Sain wins in Avoid). I don’t, however, think there’s a big gap between the cavaliers. Since I use Sain almost exclusively, I can’t really give a strong argument for Lowen via empirical evidence.

Bows don’t really do that much more damage than other weapons to flying units. Weapons effective against a unit type have the weapon’s might doubled. Bows have low might; worse than swords. The damage advantage you’re getting from an archer isn’t that high, unless you use a heavier bow, in which case you risk losing double-attack advantage.

For Hector vs. Eliwood, it’s mostly an issue of early game vs. end game (Hector rules early on, but Eliwood does outclass him towards the end due to movement and level lead). Since the early game is harder, I actually can see Hector being just above Eliwood. I just don’t remember Eliwood’s mid-game performance in HHM.

Guy gets good support options to fix offensive problems he has early on (Matthew being the best, Priscilla’s a good option too). He’s also evasive as hell. Weapon Triangle does hurt him, though, since he only has one weapon type. Honestly, I haven’t used him much, so I can’t remember exactly how good or how bad he turns out.

Serra does have the advantage of a six level lead over everyone. She’s the first one to promote. Always.

Nils/Ninian have good evade, but no defense, so yes, they’re frail. Just that their ability to give your best character a second action on every player turn is just too good.

Matthew is absolute #1 for one reason only: Silver Card. Nearly required to five-star Funds, and thus nearly required for an S-rank.

Interested in a tier chart of pen and paper 3.5.

I’m working on a tier list for the techs in Super Mario 64. Most of the techs in that game are really useful, so ranking them is proving surprisingly difficult.