Tiers for non-fighting games?

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
1061

Any tiers for NeverWinter Nights?

1062

Anyone up for doing Advance Wars 1 and 2 and Shining Soul? GBA games…

1063

I think advance wars 2 has been done. Not sure about 1, but here’s my take at it.

Top:

Max: Absolutely stupid amounts of damage. 150% base damage, at the cost of having no ranged units, which honestly doesn’t hurt that bad. Max’s regular tanks can hang with other peoples mediums (dollar for dollar). Then he activates and suddenly those regular tanks are killing your mediums for free. And his AA guns are free kills for anything that gets in range.

Eagle: Theres a reason his bar is super long in the later games. Doesn’t even need his air game, because his CO power is just retarded, but the extra power on those sure doesn’t hurt. Would be lower if the bad stuff after you use his CO power actually mattered, but if you use it right it’s game-ending anyways. His main downside, a lack of a good navy, isn’t a big deal since navy sucks in AW1.

High:

Grit: His range game is pretty hard to break once it gets going. Problem is, Max won’t get off you for you to start it up, and Eagle can still break it once he gets his power rolling.

Nell: Generally solid, with a tendancy to be slightly above average. Think of her as a weaker, but more well-rounded Max.

Sami: Mech rushes are gimmicky, but still work. Thats about it.

Mid:

Drake: Solid ground game, and CO power can cause problems. Faster navy is nice, but still nothing special here.

Andy: Nothing special, and mediocre CO power.

Kanbei: Weak early game, but if you can keep long enough to get a foothold you can bulldoze some people. Max goes pound-for-pound with you, though, and for cheaper.

Sonya (w/FoW): FoW advantages are nice, but she doesn’t have anything to push through a lot of the better CO’s. Max will just bulldoze her and take some losses, Eagle will CO power for the extra attacks. The bad luck thing is just stupid and unnecessary.

Low:

Olaf: Nothing really special, CO power is kind of pointless. He really needs the 2-days of snow he got in dual strike, it would have made him pretty good here.

Strum: Really weird CO. High Def but low Att makes it hard to really figure out what to do with him. His CO power is really good, though. Might be higher, but I never could figure him out.

Trash:
Sonya (w/o FoW): Seriously, she has effectively no bonuses, and no CO power, plus bad luck. Its pointless.

1064

I’ve recently dusted off my brother’s Fallout 2 and played the hell out of it, great game. Anyway, does anyway want to help me iron out the tiers for the NPCs in Fallout 2. All I know is who sucks and who doesn’t

Useful

  • Cassidy- Best combat NPC by far! Lots of Action Points (like other useful NPCs), can wear great armor and good with all Small Arms. His only problem is that he’ll die automatically if you use any drugs other than Stim Packs on him due to his heart trouble.
  • Sulik- Sulik is good at Melee and he gets a crap load of criticals which floors people. He can also use Shotguns pretty well, so give him one. His only problem is that he usually charges enemies, so he can get in the way of Big Gun users (Marcus)
  • Skynet- If you have a high Science skill, Skynet rocks because he’s excellent with Science and almost as good with Small Arms as Cassidy. He kinda sucks with any other brain besides the Cybernetic and his armor isn’t that good towards the end game
  • Vic- Good Repair skill and he’s the best Sniper at the end game. He starts out weak in battle, but quickly gets good with Rifles. He’s useless in battle without a Rifle because he moves like a slug
  • Marcus- He can use Big Guns and Energy Weapons well, so he can rack up the damage, although he needs a decent Small Arm because he won’t use Big Guns and stuff if any allies are in the way. He can’t use any armor, so he takes lots of damage in the end game
  • Goris- No armor hurts and he can only use his claws to attack. He’s a good bodyguard for the main character if you have him stick near you and attack whomever is attacking the MC

Useless

  • Lenny- Lots of HP, but inaccurate with guns and too few Action Points
  • Dogmeat- Nerfed from Fallout 1 big time. Bad damage and nothing defense
  • K9- Weaker version of Dogmeat with slightly higher defense and fewer Action Points
  • Cyber Dog- Few Action Points for a dog, worse damage than Dogmeat
  • Miria/Devon- They have too few HP and have no real gun skill. They also can’t level up, ever
  • Myron- Worst combat NPC by far (can’t use any weapons or his fists well) to the point where he hits you or your NPCs more than the foes. Skynet is good at Science as well and far better in battle (not that that’s saying much)

Anti Useful

  • Pariah Dog- My brother was pissed when he found this thing. He does NOT participate in battle at all and he even lowers your luck and gives you the Jinxed trait.
1065

For AW…
I remember Max and Eagle being way good… but I’m not an expert.

In Shining Soul 1, the mage was by FAR the best. Main reason is that it has essentially the same damage output as the rest of the classes, but its also ranged. AND she can heal herself. Way good… the game was way easy using her.
Dunno about the second one. I went through as a ninja for a while, but never finished. Seemed a lot more balanced though.

EDIT
Looks like someone already backed up my AW claims before me

1066

I’ve seen a few requests for Dragon Force tiers, so I’ll go ahead and do them:

Monarch tiers:

-S Tier-

MIKHAL - He gets Sonic Blast at Level 5!! High strength, high command, good starting HP, 70 Intelligence (minimum needed for fortifying or searching during Administration phase, assuming he’s NOT your main monarch), Samurai troops (the only troops in the game that are effective against Dragons), and an unusually long hit stun. The latter is an advantage when Mikhal’s getting swarmed by troops (it takes longer for Mikhal to die) and in duels (an opponent’s “fury attack” only scores three hits instead of five against Mikhal). He also (usually) has Breach formation, which is hell for enemy spell-casters.

-A Tier-

JUNON - She gets both Meteor Swarm and Sonic Blast, which is kind of overkill. She’s comparable to Mikhal, but has a few minor downsides. She doesn’t have 70+ Intelligence like he does, and she’s got the rather bad Squad formation. She also has Flame Cannon rather than Sonic Boom, which means she doesn’t have a budget attack that kills troops. Still, she’s really strong and great at commanding, and she also starts with Harpies, a rare (but good) troop type.

REINHART - He’s got a pretty good skillset, with Meteor Swarm being the real prize. It is a bit more expensive than other characters’ Meteor Swarms (5 MP, vs. 4 MP), but it has a slightly faster recharge (12 vs. 15) and Reinhart gains MP so quickly that it’s not an issue. He starts with Mage troops, which are absolutely wonderful if you know how to use them. However, being a magician, he’s frail. Oh yeah, he has a whopping 106 Intelligence, which kinda sucks if he’s your main monarch, since your main monarch can’t fortify or search.

-B Tier-

GOLDARK - He’s got an uber command rating (highest of the monarchs, if I remember correctly) and 70 Intelligence, along with nice HP and strength. He can clear enemy troops easily with Holy Flare, but he doesn’t have an effective way of both dealing damage to generals and clearing a path of troops in one attack (i.e. no Sonic Wave/Blast or Meteor Swarm). He also doesn’t have any special troops.

LEON - He hits hard and maxes HP quickly. His problem, however, is in dealing with enemy troops. He does have Stone Pedestal, but it immobilizes troops rather than kills them. Still, he’s better than Gongos, and he’s got Monks, which are somewhat useful early on and during fights with zombies.

-C Tier-

TEIRIS - What?! I didn’t put Teiris at bottom?! Sorry haters, but she’s not that bad. Yes, her HP is terrible (tied with Scythe for lowest starting HP), her strength is pathetic, her commanding ability is rather low, and she’s got the god-awful Squad formation that no spellcaster ever wants. What saves her? A decent spell list. Trident’s Daughter is a decent attack spell, and Summon Wyvern is good for burning up the enemy general. She also has a very special Dark Vortex, the only Dark Vortex in the game that hits enemy troops, and enemy troops only, so you don’t have to worry about sucking up your poor girly mage troops. Speaking of girly mage troops, she’s got a medal for them, so she’s got a good unit to work with (she starts with Archers selected; change that to Mage as soon as you get her). And for those who rather force Teiris into hard labor, rejoice, 'cause she has 70 Intelligence.

GONGOS - He’s like Leon, focusing on crushing the enemy general while ignoring the troops. However, Gongos is even more extreme in that regard, having no skill that deals with enemy troops other than Cross Rush (and it’s really bad in that regard). His unique (among monarchs) troops are Beasts, which are probably the worst in the game.

-D Tier-

WEIN - Absolutely mediocre. Pretty much every other monarch beats him in HP, Strength, and Command (except for Reinhart and Teiris, of course), and he starts with the same troops that practically every other knight does: Soldiers and Cavaliers. His skill list bland, too; he doesn’t even get Sonic Wave. Hell, you can’t even use him to put bricks on your castles until you throw an INT book on him, since he has 64 Intelligence. Odd that Sega made him suck so much, since he’s often seen as the “main character”.

Now, onto troops:

-S Tier-

DRAGON - Like there was any doubt that I’d put Dragons up here. They’re fast, powerful attackers that mow down everything that isn’t a Samurai. Too bad they’re very rare.

MAGE - Really good ranged attackers. Played correctly, they can nearly wipe clean the battlefield. They fire while spells are being casted or while a general is preparing to cast; melee units can move, but they cannot attack wile a spell is in effect. Smart casting and timing is the key.

-A Tier-

HARPY - Very effective melee unit. Good against every melee unit that’s not a Dragon. They’re also immune to those ground immobilization spells (Stone Pedestal/Thor’s Hammer/Summon Guardian/Quagmire). They’re vulnerable to BOTH archers and mages, which keeps them out of S-Tier. Even in melee with Archers, Harpies’ attacks tend to miss.

ZOMBIE - Mostly equivalent to Harpies, without the Harpy weakness to archers, but with an additional weakness to monks. Archers are less of a threat than monks, so Zombies are thus slightly inferior to Harpies. Still, they’re definitely better than Cavalry.

-B Tier-

SAMURAI - Being the main (heck, only) melee answer to Dragons is a nice perk, and they do fairly well against everything that’s not a Cavalier, Harpy, or Zombie. The main reason they’re not higher is that Dragon troops are rather uncommon until the end of the game.

MONK - Considered “Low-ability”, but they’re not too bad. They are effective against Cavalry and Zombies, and while you don’t want to deploy them in every battle, they make a good specialized unit.

-C Tier-

CAVALRY - They’re considered “high-ability” tier in combat (along with Dragons, Harpies, and Zombies), but they have way too many weaknesses for my liking. Monks, Beasts, Dragons, Harpies, and Zombies tear them up. Good for the multitude of Soldiers and Mages you run into throughout the game, but not much more than that.

SOLDIER - Pure vanilla. They get beaten out by all the high-ability units, and are only really effective against Monks, Beasts, and ranged-attackers. Samurai do that and more.

-D Tier-

ARCHER - They’re a ranged troop type like Mages, but their attack rate is about half that of a Mage (i.e. extremely slow). Their advantageous match-ups are against Harpies and Harpies only. Still, they are a ranged unit, and thus, can take advantage of the spell-casting BS that Mages can (albeit far less effectively). That’s enough to keep them from being dead-last.

BEAST - Bleh. They kill cavalry, and that’s about it. You’ve got way better troop options.

As for generals, it would take far too long to tier each one individually, but I can give you some guidelines:

  • Uryll is hands down the best general in the game. Her skillset is ridiculous (Trident’s Daughter/Resurrect/Ensnare), she’s got tons of MP, she commands dragons (one of only three recruitable generals who do), she’s got the handy Breach formation to eat up spellcasters and for quick wins, and she comes equipped with a True Ring that brings her already good Command rating to well over 90. Sierra is basically the same, with a better Resurrect (30 troops vs. Uryll’s 25, if I remember correctly) and no loyalty issues, but she has Zombies instead of Dragons. Not to mention she’s a pain to recruit.

  • Fighters with Sonic Blast are better (way better) than those with Solar Flare.

  • Magicians with the Fire skillset (Holy Shield/Meteor Swarm) are better than those with the alternative (Thunder Fall/Summon Guardian).

  • Characters with just Cross Rush (i.e. Gustav) are bottom-tier.

  • Thieves suck. Ninjas are better. Speaking of Ninjas, Hayate is a beast.

1067

I think that’s about right, the Monk doesn’t need extra gil to be spent on like most of the other classes. When he becomes a master that crappy MagDef will begin to improve, so that’s also a plus.

Strangely the White Wizard can sometimes even out-speed the Ninja. The Ninja will generally replace black mages/wizards in your group, so it’s definitely a plus in having both.

1068

One more thing I’d like to add: Critiques of the Days of Ruin tiers posted.

Mainly, Will and Waylon should be trading spots (Despite the presence of Isabella, Will is good. Waylon, however, is way too specialized to be anywhere higher than low tier).

Something like:

S++: Caulder
S+: Tabitha
S: Isabella
A: Penny, Forscythe, Brenner
B: Will, Gage
C: Grayfield, Lin, Waylon
D: Tasha

1069

My only thing I will say that still makes me put waylon above will is that while waylon is built partially around a gimmick that doesn’t work on every map, he at least HAS a gimmick, whereas will has nothing of note.

1070

That’s true, I didn’t think about it that way. In that case, Greyfield is also IMO better than Will. Will’s boost and power are only for direct attack units (other COs do this better). Greyfield powers up Naval units, Copters, and Seaplanes, which are some of the better units in the game. Greyfield’s power is also a lot more useful than Will since it resupplies every unit, so Greyfield isn’t a complete waste on non-Naval maps as he can help air units as well as indirects.

I guess I should rework my tiers a bit

All tiers are in order in each rank

Uber: Caulder (at least he isn’t playable on Wifi)
S+: Tabitha
S: Isabella
A: Brenner, Penny, Forsythe
B: Gage, Greyfield, Waylon
C: Will, Lin
D: Tasha

1071

Ground units are the most important type in any battle that’s not super-heavy in sea. I used to put Will down, too, until I realized how damned good he is on the ground. He rocks in a tank and his footsoldiers are scary. Very scary.

The reason Will is above the others is because he’s very strong in the area that matters most: Ground. He’s better than Lin because Will’s got a zone of two and has a very good COP. He’s (slightly) better than Gage, because Gage is weak in a tank and he doesn’t boost enough units on the ground. He’s way better than Waylon because air is relatively crappy in this game. As for Tasha… let’s not go there.

Now Will versus Greyfield is interesting, because whatever Will’s good at, Greyfield’s not, and vice versa. Greyfield’s insane at sea and he’s good in air due to his Battlecopter boost. Still, ground > sea > air, and Will’s power is way, way better than Greyfield’s. Thus, Will is in general the superior CO.

1072

I’ll do single classes:

S+ Tier:

Cleric - Even more retardedly overpowered than his pen-and-paper counterpart, who didn’t get called CoDzilla for no reason. BioWare domains = stupid.

S Tier:

Sorceror - The limited amount and types of arcane spells in the game nixes the Wizard’s key advantage in PnP and gives an advantage to spontaneous casting in NWN.

A Tier:

Wizard - See above. Limited spell availability makes the Wizard, who in PnP is leaps and bounds better than the Sorceror, actually weaker than the Sorceror in NWN. That’s not saying much, though. The Wizard can still be solid.

Bard - Mostly because of Bard Song, which BioWare made far more powerful than its PnP form. Good thing, though, because Bards are useless in PnP. But in NWN, they’re great. So many bonuses to skills, attack, defense, damage, that are all non-dispelable. Then there’s its counterpart, Curse Song, which coupled with Bard Song swings the balance of combat topsy-turvy.

B Tier:

Fighter - The best of the melee classes, believe it or not.

Rogue - His skills will save your butt in many situations. Against enemies where Sneak Attack works, he’s awesome. Loses points for those enemies that are immune to Sneak Attack.

C Tier:

Druid - In PnP this class is the other half of CoDzilla (CoD = Cleric or Druid). Sadly, in NWN they hosed his wild shapes and his summons so bad it’s not even funny. They needed to be nerfed from PnP, where he’s overpowered, but they went way overboard. Sadly, that reduces him to a weaker tree-hugging Cleric.

Barbarian - Raped, beaten and left for dead by the ability scores cap. Which means Rage is useless when you have enough STR-boosting items to get everybody +12 STR.

D Tier:

Paladin - Half-Cleric on top of a Fighter with no feats. Add an ability that allows some extra damage once a day (three times a day with a feat). What a disgrace to the legacy of this once-awesome AD&D class.

Monk - Weak in PnP, and no better here. Flurry of Blows = Flurry of Misses. Doesn’t matter how many attacks you get unarmed if you can’t hit anything. Weak armor class. Abilities that aren’t worth a damn. Spell Resistance keeps him out of the Ass Tier.

Ass Tier:

Ranger - The 3.0 Ranger is the lamest class in the history of D&D, and he is uber-lame in NWN as well. Everything he does, someone else does better.

1073

[ Odin Sphere ]

[ S ] Mercedes
[ A ] Oswald, Gwendolyn
[ B ] Velvet, Cornelius

Mercedes can dodge almost everything easily due to her being able to fly. Her normal shots are powerful (almost too powerful), charged shot is very useful, and piercing shot is a very good skill for the cost of only 1 stock. So all in all, she will probably get you the most S ranks and will take the least damage out of all the characters. She’s the slowest though, but eh who cares.

Oswald + shadow knight form + unlimited POW tonic + overload = boss killer. He’s also the fastest character. The worst thing about him is his mediocre ground combo (when not in shadow knight form), but you can get around that most of the time because his air combo is good enough and he can do it very low to the ground.

Gwen … well i think she would be the worst character if she wouldn’t get the shadow ally ability. Shadow ally + overload is incredibly powerful, even though it’s very costly (5 stocks). Her ground combo is mediocre, and her air abilities are imo the worst because she’s hella sluggish up there. Her dive is hard to setup, the ability to block is nice to have though.

Velvet and Cornelius both have a major problem compared to the rest: low damage output. Velvet’s chain swing ability is very nice, it makes her completely invincible. She’s doing a lot of hits but it’s all very low damage. Her air chain is nice, same with Cornelius, his sword swings in the air have a really large hitbox. His ground combo has range issues though. Both are still very playable, you just need a bit of extra endurance.

1074

I agree completely with that Odin Sphere list.

1075

Why is the cleric top tier?

1076

I can’t speak for NWN, but in p&p the cleric gets about everything. One of the classes with significant healing, plenty of spells and access to all of them, some of the better damage dealing spells in the game, when used a bit creatively, good armor, and decent attack bonus. Add all of this to the fact that the cleric only has one really important stat and you’ve got a winner.

1077

Harm
Heal
Divine Power
Battletide
Divine Favor
Implosion
Destruction
Greater Sanctuary
Word of Faith

And I could go on and on. Hell, I didn’t even elaborate on domains …

1078

please do

1079

Hi, I’m a Blaze user and I’d like to challenge the supposed tier list for Streets of Rage 2. To my mind, Blaze is top-tier, ahead of Max, then Axel, then Skate.

First thing is I hear someone’s been saying Axel has better range than Blaze. This I just cannot understand at all as it has no bearing on reality. Here are a few definitions of ‘range’:

Range of basic strikes: well, Blaze’s jab clearly has longer reach than Maxel’s. The second strike in their chains is pretty close, but as the chains start with a jab, Blaze wins. She also steps forward into the last kick of her chain.

Range of weapon strikes: Max may have the longest range of a weapon strike, if you count his pipe/sword hits striking behind too. But Blaze’s one-handed swing clearly has more range than Axel’s double-handed style.

Range of tap-tap move: pretty even this one. Max and Skate both have longer range anyway on this one.

Range of throw: Blaze has the single longest distance launcher in the game, in her judo-style back throw.

Range of Jump: Blaze has a much longer jump than Maxel.

So in all but one category, Blaze has the longer reach.

Now, on to power… first up, yes Axel may have an advantage in the striking game thanks to his burn upper, but you’d be surprised that it doesnt do much more damage than Blaze’s equivalent. In addition to this, burn upper, to do full power, must connect with a fully grounded opponent and land all three hits. Axel also has his towards + special, but this of course saps his life. Anyway, you could argue Axel has the edge in strike power.

However, grappling is a completely different story. Blaze has more power, and more capability for ‘splash’ damage, with all her throws. I mean, her grappling game is just straight-up better than Axel’s. Yes, Max has the most powerful grappling game, and his strikes are mighty too, but there you have the problem of slow walk speed and slow jab speed. Blaze has a strong grappling game plus is fast. Her suplex is almost Vega-fast and, because of that and her walk-speed, you can finish any single enemy with Suplex-Walk-Suplex-Walk-Suplex etc. In fact, she kinda plays like how I’d imagine Chun Li would in this kind of game (her neutral throw reminds me of Chun’s in particular). Maybe no suplex for chun though. Anyway, I digress.

Onto the controversy around her tap-tap move. Yes, it has startup. Yes, you can be hit during that startup. So yes, obviously, if you try to use it like you would a burnupper, you will get killed. But that’s not the point of the move. You have to space it, make sure karate guys arent around to kick you out of it, and if you do those two things it will just thump through pretty much anything. Although you arent invincible during startup, you DO get off the ground, and you can go over slides with it, and even over fat-man fire. It probably has more range than burnupper. And once the two hits start to come out, more than likely they’ll even go through an opponent with guarding ability like a thai-boxer or barman (either that, or it’ll fuck up their guard sufficiently for you to get in to a grapple).

Also, the fact that it gets you off the ground is useful during the travelator sections, where a move like burnupper might get slowed down. Not saying this move is flat-out better than burnupper, but it more than holds it’s own.

Straight-up jump kick is a low-tier boss killer. Does tons more damage than Axel’s, is equal with Max’s in fact, but sticks out a bit longer. The height of Blaze’s jump also means she’ll clear most anti-air attacks, if you time it right.

Now, on the subject of crowd-control. Obviously, you can’t just herd enemies together with the likes of burnupper, she doesnt have something like that. What you do have, however, are throws that can damage multiples with ease. You may notice with Max that occasionally you’ll do a suplex only for it to miss someone seemingly right in the splash area. Well, Blaze’s suplex has a better splash area. Her neutral throw, likewise, has a big area so between these two you should be able to control crowds up-close. And from a distance, hell, just make sure you have one enemy facing towards a large group, grab them and then flip them straight back into the group. While they are grounded, you can move in to grapple at close range. If you’re stuck out at a distance from an intimidating group, there’s even her hadouken-esque special. This is a great move for crowd control, with healthy damage on multiples. If there’s a health-up lying around you can use this totally freely to control groups from a massive distance.

Weapon use well, great range and speed and does more damage than others with a knife. But pipes and swords are what it’s about. I know Max is good, yes, he’s great with those, but all it takes is one ninja to sneek in and throw him and he’s lost it. With Blaze’s footspeed, you have a better chance at avoiding that and controlling crowds with one of these weapons.

Anyway, that’s my case. If you have counter arguments then please do present them, I’m intrigued to hear the case for Axel having more RANGE than Blaze? :confused: Just doesnt seem to be a case for that at all.

Anyway, tiers for this game for me are:

Top: Blaze
Top-middle: Max
Lower-middle: Axel
Bottom: Skate

1080

Grand Upper >>>>>>>>>>>> Blaze