Tick Throwing

[FreshOJ]

I’m neutral with it but usually won’t “tick throw” unless someone does it to me multiple times. Sometimes I return the favor, and other times I’ll just beat them without having to play that way. People who play this way all the time really aren’t that good anyways. Personally, I rather beat someone with nice combos.

I’d rather beat someone with nice combos, too, but…when someone blocks your combos…what will you do then?

The point that’s being lost here is that a person that is awake and trying to read their opponent will not get tick-thrown or walk-up thrown unless their timing is off. That’s the only reason they get thrown. If I do nothing but throw you and win, then I’m either out-thinking you or you simply aren’t awake.

I should know…because 15 years ago, I was DOUBLE-PERFECTED by a guy who did nothing but throw me. He disguised every attempt and I never caught on. No attacks. Just throws. That game woke me up…literally.

Throws make it so that you cannot play this game on auto-pilot. This is part of why this game has endured for so long.

[ShadedWolf]

How did you ever survive before ST? I don’t rely on teching throws. That’s the last option you should be looking for.

I see the forest quite clearly. I used to be in it. I’m trying to help you find your way out. The bottom line is that you have a hard time with escaping situations where you can be thrown. The solution? Get better at either avoiding those situations altogether or tighten up your reversal timing. Simple to say, but…yes…hard to do. But, it is what it is.

I’ve been playing this game from the beginning, remember? I’m an alt.games.sf2 alumni. Please don’t insult my experience.

You’re telling me not to be knocking on you but you’re doing the exact thing on me when I never got personal with you!

Everything you’re saying is something I said or agree with. I even pointed out this year’s EVO if you look at the footage you could easily theorycraft and say John Choi is a noob then for getting himself into these type of situations, and an even bigger noob for not being able to reversal out. Which I will add is total bullshit.

So just as I said which is what you say but pretend not to agree, “simple to say, but yes hard to do.”

[FreshOJ]

You’re telling me not to be knocking on you but you’re doing the exact thing on me when I never got personal with you!

My response to you wasn’t intended to be personal at all. If you took it that way, my apologies.

Everything you’re saying is something I said or agree with. I even pointed out this year’s EVO if you look at the footage you could easily theorycraft and say John Choi is a noob then for getting himself into these type of situations, and an even bigger noob for not being able to reversal out. Which I will add is total bullshit.

So just as I said which is what you say but pretend not to agree, “simple to say, but yes hard to do.”

Here’s what I was responding to…just so you understand exactly where I’m coming from…

“Throwing itself isn’t cheap or unbalanced, it’s the combination of certain game mechanics making escaping certain situations extremely difficult combined with the fact that in HD remix, you cannot tech out of a mashable grab.”

Now…whether you’re trying to sympathize with people who have a problem with escaping/countering throws or trying to express what you think about them…I disagree with the words “extremely difficult”. Hard? Possibly. Extremely difficult? No. Either way, it’s part of what makes this game as good as it is. You get put at a disadvantage? Your options for getting out of it are narrowed down…and the risk/reward ratio is preserved once again.

In any event, I think it’s obvious from this thread that those that know this game have a really hard time with those that choose to blame the game for something they simply haven’t figured out yet…especially when they choose not to believe that, with proper skill and reading your opponent, you can both tick-throw successfully and not be thrown yourself. (I’m not saying you, ShadedWolf, because we agree.)

[Coth_X]

Did I say that tick throws were ineffective? I said they were effective. You just basically rehashed what I typed while making it sound like you disagree with me when you agree with me.

What I disagree with is this:

Throwing itself isn’t cheap or unbalanced, it’s the combination of certain game mechanics making escaping certain situations extremely difficult combined with the fact that in HD remix, you cannot tech out of a mashable grab.

What you are saying is that tick throwing is cheap or unbalanced, because of the bolded part.

[ShadedWolf]

My response to you wasn’t intended to be personal at all. If you took it that way, my apologies.

Here’s what I was responding to…just so you understand exactly where I’m coming from…

“Throwing itself isn’t cheap or unbalanced, it’s the combination of certain game mechanics making escaping certain situations extremely difficult combined with the fact that in HD remix, you cannot tech out of a mashable grab.”

Now…whether you’re trying to sympathize with people who have a problem with escaping/countering throws or trying to express what you think about them…I disagree with the words “extremely difficult”. Hard? Possibly. Extremely difficult? No. Either way, it’s part of what makes this game as good as it is. You get put at a disadvantage? Your options for getting out of it are narrowed down…and the risk/reward ratio is preserved once again.

In any event, I think it’s obvious from this thread that those that know this game have a really hard time with those that choose to blame the game for something they simply haven’t figured out yet…especially when they choose not to believe that, with proper skill and reading your opponent, you can both tick-throw successfully and not be thrown yourself. (I’m not saying you, ShadedWolf, because we agree.)

Agree ^

What I disagree with is this:

What you are saying is that tick throwing is cheap or unbalanced, because of the bolded part.

I was explaining to you why some people think it is cheap or unbalanced.

I then said after watching this years EVO videos I am inclined to believe that in certain situations where the only way to escape the tick throw is through a reversal, that is unbalanced.

[1hitparry]

I then said after watching this years EVO videos I am inclined to believe that in certain situations where the only way to escape the tick throw is through a reversal, that is unbalanced.

My bad, I completely misinterpreted the post I responded to. Nevertheless I will argue why tick throwing isn’t cheap and why tick throw sets ups that require a reversal only are part of a balanced diet of HDR.

I used to think tick throws in SFII were cheap, too (not directed toward you, ShadedWolf, just people who think so in general). When I first started playing SFII, I though not being able to hold up to escape tick setups was the dumbest thing in the world. And it’s not like in 3S were you could down tech and in most cases either get the tech or a low jab to get some space. But part of SFII goes beyond dealing with the present. A lot of SFII is about planning for the future. I’ve been told over and over the best defense against tick throws is to avoid the situation all together. If you zone out your opponent so that he or she will never get the chance to even land the tick. The more I play HDR, the more I come to appreciate this piece of advice.

For example, look at Gief, the master tick thrower. This bad boy has many tick setups that you HAVE to use a reversal to get out of. Thanks to the number of active frames his SPD has, he can “meaty” his throws. Worse yet he has many variations of his tick setups that leave you guessing when he’ll SPD. If he gets in on you, you’re almost guaranteed to find your head in his crotch as you plummet toward the ground. Yet for all the advantages that Gief has in his tick throwing game, he isn’t top tier. I think he’s even considered low tier. It’s just too easy to zone out Gief for him to consistently land tick throws. A lot of the cast have ways to keep him out. So even though he’s a master tick thrower, he remains balanced.

Obviously this is an extreme example, a lot of other tick throwers are usually better at getting in than Gief, but they still remain vulnerable to zoning if they concentrate on trying to get in for a tick throw. Once players have reached the level where they can reversal throw and zone effectively, tick throws become no more effective as any other tactic.

[Coth_X]

I then said after watching this years EVO videos I am inclined to believe that in certain situations where the only way to escape the tick throw is through a reversal, that is unbalanced.

They have already told me why they don’t like them. That has been addressed in the other thread anyway.

However, to the above, I don’t feel that makes them unbalanced. That would be true if they did huge damage were unreducable, and had enormous range.

Ticks aren’t like that, the opponent still has to work to get in for the tick situation, once in you can reversal throw(very mixup/range dependent) or reversal special move after the tick, and if you can see the tick then you can prepare mentally for the tick, just not the mindgame that follows.

I saw an interesting post in one of the SFIV chunli threads.
For those who do not know chun li does not have a dedicated anti air in SFIV.

The point of the post was that, if the player was not looking for the jump, then they wouldn’t be prepared to stop it, and same for if they were not looking for the opponent to poke with them. If they were looking to the air, they wouldn’t be prepared for the ground pokes of their opponent.

If you expect your opponent wants to tick, then you have to look for it to be ready to reverse it.I have horrible precision with reversal srk, but I tend to get my reversal throws pretty well when I realize what the opponent is going for. If they ticked well into their own throw range, they could very well be in yours. If not at least you tech, and if you are expecting a hold, then you tech then immediately mash, and will generally only suffer one to two hits.

I understand now that you aren’t neccessarily saying you are against them, but are rather trying to argue the opposing viewpoint.

It just happpens to be a viewpoint that is becoming increasingly problematic, since alot of people are subscribing to this belief now.

This post was kind of a response and a just general stuff for anybody and everybody. No intent here for anything in particular.

[boingyman]

nothing wrong with tick throws. this aint the arcades…

[ShadedWolf]

They have already told me why they don’t like them. That has been addressed in the other thread anyway.

However, to the above, I don’t feel that makes them unbalanced. That would be true if they did huge damage were unreducable, and had enormous range.

Ticks aren’t like that, the opponent still has to work to get in for the tick situation, once in you can reversal throw(very mixup/range dependent) or reversal special move after the tick, and if you can see the tick then you can prepare mentally for the tick, just not the mindgame that follows.

I saw an interesting post in one of the SFIV chunli threads.
For those who do not know chun li does not have a dedicated anti air in SFIV.

The point of the post was that, if the player was not looking for the jump, then they wouldn’t be prepared to stop it, and same for if they were not looking for the opponent to poke with them. If they were looking to the air, they wouldn’t be prepared for the ground pokes of their opponent.

If you expect your opponent wants to tick, then you have to look for it to be ready to reverse it.I have horrible precision with reversal srk, but I tend to get my reversal throws pretty well when I realize what the opponent is going for. If they ticked well into their own throw range, they could very well be in yours. If not at least you tech, and if you are expecting a hold, then you tech then immediately mash, and will generally only suffer one to two hits.

I understand now that you aren’t neccessarily saying you are against them, but are rather trying to argue the opposing viewpoint.

It just happpens to be a viewpoint that is becoming increasingly problematic, since alot of people are subscribing to this belief now.

This post was kind of a response and a just general stuff for anybody and everybody. No intent here for anything in particular.

I’m glad we see eye to eye now.

The problem is, kind of going along with what you’re saying about “looking” for the (jump or reversal whatever) situation, is that often you can be “looking” for it, in that reversal situation but simply be unable to respond, whether it because the situation is too risk vs reward out of your favor (include mixups like you mentioned, or simply do nothing to punish the reversal), or simply because you are unable to execute your reversal.

My bad, I completely misinterpreted the post I responded to. Nevertheless I will argue why tick throwing isn’t cheap and why tick throw sets ups that require a reversal only are part of a balanced diet of HDR.

I used to think tick throws in SFII were cheap, too (not directed toward you, ShadedWolf, just people who think so in general). When I first started playing SFII, I though not being able to hold up to escape tick setups was the dumbest thing in the world. And it’s not like in 3S were you could down tech and in most cases either get the tech or a low jab to get some space. But part of SFII goes beyond dealing with the present. A lot of SFII is about planning for the future. I’ve been told over and over the best defense against tick throws is to avoid the situation all together. If you zone out your opponent so that he or she will never get the chance to even land the tick. The more I play HDR, the more I come to appreciate this piece of advice.

For example, look at Gief, the master tick thrower. This bad boy has many tick setups that you HAVE to use a reversal to get out of. Thanks to the number of active frames his SPD has, he can “meaty” his throws. Worse yet he has many variations of his tick setups that leave you guessing when he’ll SPD. If he gets in on you, you’re almost guaranteed to find your head in his crotch as you plummet toward the ground. Yet for all the advantages that Gief has in his tick throwing game, he isn’t top tier. I think he’s even considered low tier. It’s just too easy to zone out Gief for him to consistently land tick throws. A lot of the cast have ways to keep him out. So even though he’s a master tick thrower, he remains balanced.

Obviously this is an extreme example, a lot of other tick throwers are usually better at getting in than Gief, but they still remain vulnerable to zoning if they concentrate on trying to get in for a tick throw. Once players have reached the level where they can reversal throw and zone effectively, tick throws become no more effective as any other tactic.

Agree with most of this, just I feel that in the end I really wish there were more balanced fighting games.

[1hitparry]

Agree with most of this, just I feel that in the end I really wish there were more balanced fighting games.

Ha ha. I don’t think anyone other than anime fan boys (I dislike hearing X should be way more powerful than Y because he’s the head something or other of the awesome clan and took out thirty ninja pirates with his eye beemus) wouldn’t want a well balanced fighting game. My friend once told me once: Every game fighting game has bullshit. It’s just a matter of what kind of bullshit you’re willing to put up with.

[Coth_X]

Agree with most of this, just I feel that in the end I really wish there were more balanced fighting games.

Well, considering ST:HDR is pretty well balanced, it won’t really get too much better.

[1hitparry]

Well, considering ST:HDR is pretty well balanced, it won’t really get too much better.

Well you could ban everyone but one character.

[Coth_X]

Well you could ban everyone but one character.

If that’s the case we might as well make it only akuma is playable. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually no to avoid people complaining about cheap tick throws, only gief should be on the select screen, since only gief’s tick throws are honorable!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ShadedWolf]

Isn’t there some type of internet joke revolving super smash?

no items fox only final destination or something?

kind of fitting here.

[1hitparry]

Isn’t there some type of internet joke revolving super smash?

no items fox only final destination or something?

kind of fitting here.

Sounds about right. I can’t remember who was better in SSBM, Fox or Sheik. Either way…

[level1online]

I say “Depends on the situation”

Sometimes I take tick throwing as an insult or a learning lesson.

For example, I’ll say to myself “Yeap… he had to resort to a tick throw to beat me because we were evenly matched in either skills, wins, and/or health. The tick throw tactic gave him the extra edge he needed to win the match. No biggie, its my fault for not anticipating it…”

other times…

“THAT CHEAP BASTARD!!! This guy can’t even throw a combo or special move… even when we’re far apart, he’s still doing the motion for a tick throw!!! AHHH!!! THAT’S IT! I"M TURNING ON THE TURBO!!!”

[savalas]

“THAT CHEAP BASTARD!!! This guy can’t even throw a combo or special move… even when we’re far apart, he’s still doing the motion for a tick throw!!! AHHH!!! THAT’S IT! I"M TURNING ON THE TURBO!!!”

This line right here shows what a scrub you are.
Nothing personal.

[Shari]

“THAT CHEAP BASTARD!!! This guy can’t even throw a combo or special move… even when we’re far apart, he’s still doing the motion for a tick throw!!! AHHH!!! THAT’S IT! I"M TURNING ON THE TURBO!!!”

Is this an admittance of using Turbo ?

[1hitparry]

I think the poster was kidding about getting mad and resorting to turbo.

[IrrepressibleGuile]

tick throws can be countered, its not like they are unstoppable. However with lag and roll backs tick throws can be abused, so the answer to that is dont play high ping matches and practise reversing. People really need to stop bitching about tick throws, there are more important issues is HDR that needs addressing like:

(1) akuma over powered
(2) you win a match and are given a loss (happened to me twice yesterday)
(3) a ping filter to prevent people with high ping ruining your session.

on a side not, have capcom abandoned HDR as far as further patching is concerned?