Tick throwing

Classic Fighting Games King of Fighters XIII
1

The Hyper Guide and various sites like Dream Cancel go on about how I can use tick throws in my mixups. They also note that after wakeup and block stun in this game, there is 9 frames of throw invulnerability.

So how the hell do I tick throw in this game? I’ve never really ticked thrown anyone in KOF games because of this throw immunity after hit and block stun. The only way I can do it is delay my throws, which make them very reactable, or usually I just get hit out by them pressing buttons because I paused to throw. The only way I can reasonably tick throw someone with Clark is to use his delayed armor grab. After his sweep xx command dash, I can delay for a moment and go into an instant command grab. Both setups are very reactable.

If there’s anything I should know that I’m missing, be my guest and enlighten me. The constant immunity to throws makes trying to do mixups with grapplers very frustrating. How do I pressure them if they don’t even have to worry about me throwing them after blocking?

2

I don’t know what you mean by reactable? If you make the right read then you’ll get them. Just treat tick throw like any other fighter.

Is he going to throw out a normal? Do the super armor clark throw or Daimon invulnerable throw or space your command grab to grab the limb.

Is he going to jump? go for a meaty or low hit before he goes off the ground. Jump up after them and hit them out of the air.

If you don’t have a command throw and you think they are going to mash C or D to throw break you can jump straight up and make them whiff it, then land on them for a combo.

I’ve been grabbed by a Clark user 5 times in a row once. Shits really scary lol.

3

9 frames is still VERY quick, low B into grab is going to work a lot. But the fact tick grabbing is harder, means people look out for throws less, as they are scared of high/low mixups.

For example, do hop overhead, hop overhead then hop nothing making it seem like a telegraphed hop low, and then just throw as there is no blockstun.

4

there are are many tickthrows in the game, the most scary are (whiff normal), run xx command grab.
The other one is Dash (neutral), f+C/D, you do this by doing f,f, neutral(a little bit) and then f+C/D.

it’s important to know that there’s no crouch tech in this game :0

5

I think it’s faster if you Dash up than press b+C/D it’ll grab instantly rather than having to go to neutral.

6

If you want to know how to run and throw without having to return to neutral, you should understand dash a little bit.

You cancel your dash when ever you throw out an attack or a direction that’s not forward. You activate dash by double tapping and holding forward. Now, to throw, you have to hit Forward C or D or Back C or D. The problem is that you’re holding forward. In order to throw that way, you have to stop running and return to neutral. That’s slow and telegraphed.

The best way to “Run throw” is to dash and quickly do Back C or D. You cancel your dash because you did something that wasn’t forward. If you do it right, the character will go from the running animation to a throwing animation. So, as BurningVigor said, that’s the best way to dash in for a quick throw. It also adds to a mix up. If you do it once, someone might try to tech a throw, but you can hop, go low, roll backwards or just stop outside of their range and throw a whiff blowback to throw off their timing. Dash mixups are really crazy!

7

Important note – the direction on the joystick doesn’t determine the direction of the throw (like in Street Fighter and Marvel) – the button determines the direction. A C throw will throw in front, and a D will throw behind.

Also, don’t forget about karathrows (or cancelling normals into command throws for a slight increase in range/visual trickery). This is a character specific one, so experiment with some setups (offhand I want to say Vice can karathrow off of her f+A, but I’m not 100%).

8

You don’t. Stop trying, this isn’t Street Fighter. There’s other ways to get throws in (empty hop throw, run up throw etc.). A tickthrow in the traditional sense is, like you said, incredibly easy to see. It will still work sometimes, but you really really really have to scare your opponent into blocking. You can’t use throws to punish them for pushing buttons while on the defense.

As people mentioned above, there’s some specific ways to set up tickthrows, but this can be countered by anyone using alternate guard anyway. The point of throws in that sense, are a lot more like they should be. They’re moves you use when your opponent is thinking of blocking and you want to break his guard, rather than using them as fast unblockable pokes, which is what they are in tickthrow situations.

Nah, you still have the run recovery, but it comes out instantly afterwards I think.

9

Three things I consider retarded in a fighting game, but had to deal with : Throws à la SFIV, mashing reversal in links à la SFIV, FADC on guard à la SFIV.

God bless KOF XIII.

10

Yes, I know you all love to dickstroke KOF because you get blown up at mainstream fighters and KOF has a small enough scene for you to think you’re okay at it, but let’s stay on topic and talk about throws in KOF. It also helps to know what the fuck you’re talking about. I would like to thank phoenix for giving me for giving me one of the few (only?) productive replies ITT.

I mean that anyone with reaction speed can see Clark throwing his hands up and do something about it, obviously.

You definitely can’t treat tick throws like any other fighter. You would know that if you were good at any of them.

I and most players can easily react to things in one tenth of a second (one fifth if the game is 30 FPS). That + the huge tech window means NO SIR, low B into throw usually doesn’t work. You have to be walking into them for quite a while (for a fighting game) before you can throw them.

No fucking shit asshole. Hey did you know that KOF has minimum dashing frames? Apparently not!

Grabbing, doing a low and rolling backwards after a dash will all get beaten by a throw because you have to remain dashing for a lot of frames before you can cancel it or return to neutral, while throws are zero frame and obviously you can get thrown out of your roll. It’s not like Marvel or Tekken where you can cancel any frame of your dash, otherwise we’d have dudes wavedashing in KOF. Thank you for your time.

Yea, I haven’t since I first got into the series. I just see all these guides on the wiki saying that I should be tick throwing all the times with grapplers. I was like “the fuck?” and wondered if they knew something about the throw mechanics I didn’t. At the very least, I know that you forfeit your throw immunity if you roll wakeup.

So I’m right in assuming that most of the other advice ITT is wrong and some of the editors on the KOF wiki are bad at the game? Thank you.

11

Person-Man, regular throws have a 3 frame start-up. They’re not instant. Even command throws are 1 frame. You also do not have to return to neutral or stop running in KoF to cancel your dash. If you press a button while dashing, you immediately stop running. The only thing you can’t do is block or throw using forward C immediately after running.

12

Ha! Person-Man 1, internet 0

13

Most writers of the wiki are knowledgeable and a good part of them are good (I wouldn’t consider myself part of the second group). Just because throws in a traditional sense are a lot less viable, doesn’t mean there’s no such thing as a tickthrow. Was there any particular part on the wiki that you disagreed with?

One possibility to do a tickthrow becomes available when your tick actually hits an opponent for example. If you hit an opponent, instead of have your move blocked, they cannot alternate guard, so the only options left available to counter the tickthrow are jumping out and mashing.

Against invincible throws (of which there are a lot in older KOF’s, a lot less in XIII) mashing will lose. So you are left with jumping.

Against normal throws, mashing is an option, but jumping isn’t, because if you jump and they attempt a throw cl.C or D will come out, which tend to be fantastic anti-airs.

So a character with a good anti-air/normal throw option select and an invincible throw (Daimon, Clark) a tickthrow is viable and applied extensively, the only thing is that it becomes somewhat more of a mixup. You either do a normal throw or a command throw.

I don’t understand why this keeps on getting repeated over and over. Either way, it’s wrong. Normal Throws are instant in KOF94 all the way up to KOFXIII with the only exception being XII. I’m guessing this rumor somehow comes from people who started KOF with XII.

The only other reason I can think off why people think it has some startup, is because it has 4 frame of input delay (just like normals, but unlike st.CD and rolls (0 frames) and specials (1 frame). But input delay does not equal startup.

14

wow i was called an asshole :C

15

If you think you can react to 9 frames then more power to you. Overheads are like 20 frames and people get hit all day.

Yes obviously if you sit there waiting for it, but in a match you will get scooped.

EDIT: Yeah I’m talking about a command grab like Clark’s D command grab, with normal throws a close normal will come out if you jump anyway.

16

The thing is, you shouldn’t even be reacting to the ‘walk forward’ during those 9 frames. You should be teching on reaction the tech window is big enough, not on anticipation of the throw. Obviously during the 9 frames of throw invincibility you could fake a walkup throw and stick out a poke.

So this whole ‘reacting to 9 frames throw invincibility’ is silly. The throw invincibility has absolutely nothing to do with how easy it is to react to a throw. It only has to do with how easy is to mash/jump/counterthrow/alternate guard/backdash out of it when you anticipate a throw.

And even if walking up always meant you were going to do a throw, you wouldn’t be able to react to the 9 frame ‘startup’ all the time, no. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t do a lot about that even on anticipation. If you give your opponent a 9 frame window to do shit, chances are he’ll do something that will make him unthrowable, with various levels of painful punishment.

Before you can even think of tickthrowing someone, you really, really have to make someone incredibly scared. And in those cases, you’re still better off doing something more threatening.

Let’s take a situation like this: Kyo does cr.B you block it.
Now Kyo can walk forward for 9 frames and do a throw attempt.

The opponent sees this and can press b+cl.C at a timing that, if you were to throw he’d tech, if you’d do something else his fast close C comes out. If he doesn’t feel like being balsy, he can alternate guard.

How is this threatening? nothing happens, it’s fairly safe. This is actually more threatening for the person attempting the tickthrow.

Now, good players, will know that if you block a cr.B and Kyo hops instantly afterwards, it sets up a crossup attempt with hop j.d+C. So if Kyo does cr.B and hops afterwards, there’s the obvious threat of a crossup. So what do you do? You attempt to block the crossup. Instead, the Kyo player does the crossup setup, but doesn’t do the crossup but lands and throws.

It avoids the throw invincibility, it threatens with something different, which leaves the opponent more open for throws.

A tickthrow attempt doesn’t threaten anything but ‘a throw is coming’. It should be threatening in more than one way, otherwise there simply is only one answer your opponent has to think of, which should result in a correct reaction. Of course it will not always, but that has to do with inexperience of the player, not the viability of tick throws.

This is what I meant with ‘throws are there to break guard, not to use as an unblockable poke’.

Attempting a tick throw in KOF with a character that only has a normal throw, is pretty much testing if your opponent is retarded/slow. And while this is viable in tournament settings against people who aren’t at a high level, it is not something you do at high level of play.

Grapplers have better uses for tickthrows, as I mentioned earlier can force a jump away/throw tech mixup with their two throws.

17

I’ve tested it and that’s why I say it. I would not call throws instant even if the animation comes out on the first frame because of that delay. For example, in arcade, Narrow spike was something like -2 on block. If you tried to throw K’ before he did the DP, you’d eat a DP. However, for Kyo’s Shiki Kai, if you try to punish that with a throw, you will every time, even if they input the command for a DP. Same stick with Elizabeth’s DP which is 4 frames start-up and so on or so forth. So any move that’s -3 on recovery and places you right in front of someone, you’ll be thrown. Anything -2 or higher, you can counter a throw with a move that puts you in the air.

Since you can’t grab people when they’re airborne and DPs usually have 4 frames of start-up and also put you airborne during it, anything -2 or slower won’t get thrown. This is why I’ve been saying throws are 3 frames. I feel it’s important not to say they’re instant because if someone tries to punish a move with a throw, a person is aware of that, and they do a DP, they’ll wonder why they got hit.

18

Just because you can’t punish stuff that’s -2 with it doesn’t make them 3 frames startup. By that reasoning, Iori’s close C is 6 frames startup (4 frames input lag + 2 frame startup). That makes no sense.

If Iori does cl.C at the EXACT same time as Kyo would do C throw, Kyo would win every time. Thus it must be quicker than cl.C.

If you really can’t punish moves with -2 with a normal grab, that has to do with the bad throw ranges and possibly some other factors. This isn’t really an issue since you can tech out of throws if you get grabbed during recovery of a special.

So no, saying throws have 3 frames startup because you can’t punish a -2 move makes no sense, and is true misinformation.

But hey, you saying this has gotten me to have a closer look at throws and their startup. And something really odd happens if you just activate throw during a walk, you’ll see 1 frame of close C and then throw coming out.

But this doesn’t mean that it has 1 frame startup. What is happening is this:

You input throw with f+C this registers both as ‘throw’ and ‘close C’ but throw has priority over C.
4 Frames of input delay.
Then the game ‘checks’ if the opponent is throwable (i.e. a throwbox appears) and at the same time cl.C starts happening.
If the opponent was throwable, the next frame you’ll see the throw starting.

But the actual ‘throw’ happens when you see the close C come out.

This is actually similar to how older KOF’s handle it. If you attempt a throw in older KOF’s you will not see the cl.C come out, but if you attempt the throw and the opponent is unthrowable at the time, the close C will come out on the exact same frame as the ‘throw check’.
[media=youtube]MnxFl0WoOQM[/media]

Now to compare that with KOF2002 Throws with hitboxes and throwboxes.
White are throwboxes, Pink is throwbox.
Notice how in the first vid no cl.C appears when you see the throwbox, while in the second vid you see the first frame of startup of cl.C as the throwbox appears because Iori is unthrowable at the time.

[media=youtube]bXP_788Fu-M[/media]
[media=youtube]1OkHPGizA1w[/media]

19

Games need throw invincibility, to eliminate lazy/braindead tick throw setups like the ones Person-Man is hoping for. This game won’t give you that, atleast not nearly as easily.

That said, they are still pretty viable and thinking you can react in 9 frames makes you deluded. From what i’m understanding from your post, you’re actually saying you can react to their attempt to throw, with your own throw (and not just reacting with a tech). You might be able to react to walk forward but as said, they can just throw out a poke before they get into your throw range, making your attempt to throw them out of a throw result in some normal coming out instead. Also, if you’re mashing throw when they are close to you, or attempting to time your own throw after those 9 frames, you will eat lots of low attacks into combos since you need to be standing for that to work. Normal throws after jump attacks are still pretty viable if you’ve scared the opponent with some good low pressure.

20

Unless Iori’s st.C became faster than in the arcade, it should be 3 frames. Seeing it slowed down to that degree really is an eye-opener. If it’s faster than Iori’s st.C, you see the first frame of Kyo’s st.C come out, it could activate on the second frame like you said (Or if you were saying that at all).

Testing the speed of throw was done when I’m being attacked and how fast I can respond before someone uses a move that puts them in the air. I did not do it when we’re both at neutral because I wouldn’t be able to gauge when I could or could not throw.

In any case, I do thank you for taking the time to record the video and taking the time to really analyze the properties and speed of throw.