The game does have tick throws. Far as I know only Clark and maybe Goro has them. Alt Guard kinda’ takes the piss out of it.
Clark is basically jumping A or B or really early (like normal jump) jump C into B SAB. If you have them in the corner you can do jumping A, standing A or B into B SAB.
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Check out Bala’s matches for some Clark action.
First match is around 1h08m, against Kane.
I don’t understand how this is complicated…
Put them in blockstun, then try to attack JUUUUUUUUUUUUST after the blockstun is over, but without giving them enough time to retaliate.
If they stop trying to retaliate, throw.
If they alternate guard, use more lows.
If they can break throws on reaction (Tekken-style) then use more diverse frame traps, and try command grabs and overheads.
Me, and anyone who will ever talk about KOF, when they say ‘2 frame startup’ mean it becomes active on the THIRD frame, not the second. This isn’t Tekken or Street Fighter 4.
Therefore Iori cl.C = 2 frames, which equals SF4 3 frames startup.
Therefore a 2 frame cl.C can maximally punish a -3 move. Different conventions like that are confusing, but that’s what it is.
So the cl.C of Kyo you see would have another frame of cl.C startup before it becomes active.
But yeah throws are instant. Demoninja was telling me that he was able to punish -3 moves with throws. I just tested punishing Iori’s qcb+B with a throw, and it worked. I think qcb+B is like -2 or -3 on block so, it is actually possible. But it’s pretty hard, a lot of factors probably don’t ever make throw punishes like that terribly reliable.
[EDIT]
Also tested Kyo qcf+B and I’m positive that that’s -1, and you can punish it with throw.
But that’s technically impossible, since there’s a 9 frame gap, you can pretty much retaliate with anything in that time.
You don’t forfeit throw invincibility when you press a button?
If that’s the case, then just do tight enough frame traps that they’ll want to block for all 9 frames.
I don’t really expect to be throwing any good players, but I do think it’s possible if you get in their head.
No you don’t, is there any game that does do that that makes you think it might?
Only thing that forfeits throw invincibility is recovery roll and, there’s one exception that I know of in King of Fighters 2002. Athena’s 2xhcb+P forfeits throw invincibility
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I won’t put your experience with the franchise in question; that’s not my intention. All I have been saying is that if you intend to use a throw to punish a move in this game on block, you will not be able to if the move has -2 recovery or higher. Whether the animation comes out instantly or not is not what I’m saying. A character has attacked, another character has blocked, and the defending player is choosing to throw as a punish. If you’re intending to throw to interrupt someone’s slower move, that is something I have not tested and I admit that. If you are using throws outside of punishing a move on recovery, I am not sure of that and I am not sure if the situation changes.
Also, as far as I know, the Arcadia magazine published two years prior for the Arcade version used an example that I’ve used to base it off of. This is published information. If a character is in recovery, they cannot move until all the recovery frames have lapsed. Take Ash’s sweep. That’s -8 frames of recovery. He can’t move or block until the 9th frame. This means you can use a punish that is 8 frames total (Your explanation being it has 7 frames start-up and hits on the 8th frame) like Vice’s C Mayhem. By that logic, if I can’t punish something on block with a throw and I know the move is -2 on recovery because of the frame data, something is stopping me from doing so before this person becomes in an unthrowable state. As of right now, I don’t know what that something is, but it exists and prevents the person from being thrown as soon as I’m out of blockstun. It could be that there ARE a lot of factors or properties to moves I don’t have knowledge for. Maybe some moves have some sort of throw invincibility or their might be moves that have more blockstun than they have recovery. I’ll admit I do not know that; I am merely sharing what I do know.
Well I added an edit just now of Kyo qcf+B being punishable with a throw (albeit really difficult) and I’m confident that move is -1 on block (you can punish it with instant throws, and you can’t punish it with kyo’s EXDM)
Instant throws are 0 frame startup (or 1 frame in SF4 terminology), Kyo’s EXDM is 1 frame startup (or 2 frames in SF4 terminology). You can confirm this because Kyo’s EXDM combos off his cl.C (which is +2 on hit, so a 1 frame link). Therefore Kyo qcf+B must be -1, and it is definitely throwable, I confirmed it by recording kyo to do qcf+B and jump immediately afterwards, switching turbo on with Iori blocking and attempting a throw. And, yeah you can land it. It’s a 1 frame punish though. So Throws must be instant.
What exactly is causing the difficulty on punishing some moves that are -2 or more on block puzzles me. But throw range isn’t that big, my guess it pushes them just out of range in most situations.
I came off a bit harsh. It is obvious that you’ve been doing some thorough study, and been doing it correctly, just not with the correct moves I guess.
Thank you for the consideration. My intentions aren’t to be at odds. I’d like to be helpful; that’s all I’m trying to do. His QCF+B? In the arcade, that was less safe than his qcf+D on recovery, but again, I don’t know if it’s changed.
EDIT:
Went back and checked the magazine translation. They’re based on the name of the moves though, so Kotosuki You is hcb+B/D, Ama no Murakumo is his Neomax, etc. Now, disregarding the Kotosuki You (since we know it got nerfed recovery), weak 88 Shiki Kai should be -10 on block. I always found that weird because the move should be faster than the stronger version.
Team Japan
【Kyo】
df+D(-11), [W] / {S} 88Shiki Kai(-10/-3), Kototsuki You(-2),Ama no Murakumo (-34)
@Phoenix: I tried to make the dummy do the same set-up I usually do with the qcf+B. You’re right, sometimes I can throw him before he DPs and sometimes I can’t. Actually, there are times I’ll get a counterhit st.C instead. Maybe it has some sort of hidden property or it’s just ridiculously faster than it was in arcade?
It’s ridiculously faster than in the arcade. It’s been completely changed. in Arcade you’d also send the opponent into a reset state on hit, that’s gone too.
Getting counterhit cl.C is a bit surprising though… I wonder how that works. Are you doing dp+A? because that can lose to cl.C dp+C can’t.
Not exactly throw related but since you mentioned it, phoenix - whyy do you say there is 1F input delay on specials? When I was testing the other day (on 60 fps capture) specials would always begin animating as soon as the button input appeared onscreen.
I was talking about older KOF’s, I have not yet tested this thoroughly in KOFXIII.
I’ve also been wondering how reliable the on screen input display is. I take it you’ve been testing this, what were your results
0-frame inptu delay on special/AB/BC/CD and 4 frames on normals?
Yup, exactly that. And then there is also the (at least) 4F native input delay of the game, which would require an actual 60 fps camera + CRT to measure.
OK I mentioned this elsewhere but why does this happen and does anyone have the frame data applicable?
I press C/D followed by forward and I get a throw instead. I know the game sees the inputs as distinct because in training mode the inputs show that the button press happens before the directional input. So what is happening here? Is the C/D getting kara-cancelled? Or is their inherent lag (and if so, how much?) during which the game decides which move your char should perform (I’m assuming this is different from the 4f input lag).
I can’t say I know for certain, but the game stores inputs really long for a fighting game. If you hold forward even a slight bit longer than you should, you’ll throw. It happens especially with st.C/D into F+button. You just need to let the stick be at neutral before going forward.
So does that mean button inputs aren’t recognized as commands the instant the game “sees” them? Or is the command just being kara-cancelled?
I don’t believe you can kara-cancel into a throw. It just happens that if you jump in, it’s blocked, and you press C and then you press something like f+B, it’ll sometimes through because the button was pressed and the action is still in the buffer. If your opponent is not in a state where they can be thrown, you’ll do the normal move instead. That could be on hit or blockstun. If you time your jump-ins, you shouldn’t be throwing, but if you’re just running up to someone to hit them, that’s a different story.