No, All I am saying in on the last frame of stun you can go directly into a special move, super, or throw.
(Statement not aimed directly @ JV)
I am not making any bolder claim than that. :pleased:
Maybe the reversal comes directly out of the last frame of stun (which is how I understood it, but may not actually be the case) or it comes out of the first frame of a neutral state. It doesn’t really matter as to the exact mechcanics to me, because however it works, it beats tick throws.
How long do most knockdowns last?
Depends a bit on the knockdown, but typically a second or more if you include the air time and hit freeze.
It has been proved that frame advantage is longer for the first attack of a sequence. The exact nature of why it happens has not been determined, though.
To test this yourself, pick Ryu and cancel a cr.short into a hadouken. It will form a combination. Now try it after a jump attack, cr.strong, rush punch, whatever: it will never combo.
No, that is why Honda should always counter a safe jump from Gief with the reversal headbutt right after he gets up, even though it will not knock him down, but only push him back. Headbutts are not invulnerable, thus he can get thrown out of them if he decides to counter the SPD itself with it. Ryu can also not be thrown out of wake-up shoryuken, but can get SPDed, knee bashed or whatever in other situations, as long as the enemy is in range. Knee bash and running bear grab on SRKs are guaranteed “WTF???” moments in ST.
Yeah my question is that why is tic throwing so good.
If it is true that you should be able to reversal 100% of the time, or if you are slow get a 50/50, why can I tic someone over and over, successfully?
As the tic thrower, you’ve got control over the timing, so you’re at a huge execution advantage.
SPD data by Akiba, translated by NKI:
Jab:?0?5?5?22
Strong:?0?5?5?24
Fierce:?0?5?5?26
SPD data in YBH, scans by Geo:
Jab: 11 21
Strong: 11 23
Fierce: 11 25
Akiba has 10 frames, YBH has 11 frames.
All Torpedoes are invincible at startup, however, Zangief’s SPD range is greater than the Torpedo’s hitboxes before it’s airborne. Meaning, Zangief can start the SPD outside the Torpedo’s initial hit range (about the same range as max cr Jab range) and throw Honda at the moment when his invincibility runs out, but before he’s airborne. This way Zangief will never get hit.
IDK if a wakeup reversal Shoryuken can be SPD’d or thrown. Ryu hits on the 5th frame and is throwable on the 9th and 10th frame, but this is less than the 13 frames of throw invincibility. But of course, a reversal Shoryuken after blockstun is not guaranteed throw invincibility, so that’s why it can be thrown then. Although this would be a good test to see if 13 frames of throw invincibility is negated if an attack is executed. Just have Zangief stand just outside Shoryuken range, Ryu executes a wakeup reversal, and Zangief starts the SPD after the Shoryuken has started. His 10 active throw frames should cover the Shoryuken’s 2 frame throw-vulnerable window. If Ryu or Ken gets thrown, then the 13 frames is negated if a Special attack is performed after wakeup. Also would be good to know if this includes all attacks or only Special attacks, and maybe doesn’t include Normal attacks, and also would be good to know if jumping would negate this too.
Ya, I’ve read the Akiba stuff on NKI’s site. But the details are not entirely clear to me. For sake of argument, let’s say there’s no way he could be wrong and we take Akiba’s word as gospel. Given that, it sounds like there’s one frame at the end of standing up where you are invincible. But can you do a reversal move on that frame (SRK/throw)? If so, then you definitely have two frames to reversal SRK. Also, if that is the case, doing the throw on the invincible frame should work. But will doing a throw on the first frame you’re vulnerable beat a meaty? So, even if we don’t question the source of the info, I’d still like to understand all of the details about how this works.
I interpret NKI’s post another way. To me, it sounds like he’s saying that if you reversal SRK or whatever on the first frame *after *stun, which is not invulnerable, then you win. But, if you mis-time it and the other guy also mis-times his move, then it comes down to who did their move closer to the first frame out of stun.
Ya, honestly from a player perspective I don’t think any of this stuff matters much. We know we can do reversals and we know how to get them to work. I don’t expect finding the answers to these questions to improve my play or anything. I’m more just curious to know exactly how the SF engine works. Given that, I’d like to find hard solid answers to these because the soft answers still leave a small bit of doubt in my head.
In my opinion, if you do a reversal Shoryuken on the 1st frame after wakeup, that frame will be invincible due to the Shoryuken’s 1st frame being invincible. So the Shoryuken’s 1st frame will replace the wakeup’s 1st frame of invincibility IMO. However, I think if you do a reveral Hadoken instead, the 1st frame will still be invincible. If however, you do a Shoryuken on the 2nd frame after wakeup (which will not be a reversal IMO, cuz it’s not on the 1st frame), then yes, you could say that there are 2 invincible frames, the 1st one after wakeup followed by the Shoryuken’s 1st frame. But obviously if you do a Hadoken on the 2nd frame, I don’t think the 2nd frame will be invincible. So really, there is only 1 invincible frame: the 1st one after wakeup.
Yes, I think so. If the 1st frame after wakeup is invincible, then that’s a guaranteed reversal throw on that frame. The 2nd frame that is not invincible will still throw meaties, because throws have zero startup, and you will go from invincible to immediate throw IMO.
A similar situation IMO would be: if both characters are standing next to each other at point blank range, and player A does a neutral normal attack, say a st Strong, and player B does a throw on the 1st frame of the st Strong’s active hitting frames, let’s say the 4th frame for example (IDK for sure). In that case, I think the throw will beat the st Strong’s 1st hitting frame IMO.
If however, the opponent was trying to throw you after wakeup, without a tick, say a SPD started on the last frame of wakeup, your reversal throw will still beat it cuz of the 13 frames of throw-invincibility after wakeup IMO.
I agree that if you reversal Shoryuken on the 1st frame after blockstun (or any other attack that is invincible-on-startup), you will beat the tick throw. But I disagree that a reversal throw will beat the opponent’s throw. If both throws are done on the 1st frame after blockstun, why should this frame be throw-invincible, especially considering it doesn’t have throw invincibility like the 1st 13 frames after wakeup? I think that it will be 50-50 in that case. If NKI and others are right tho, the last frame of blockstun is invincible, so a reversal throw on that frame will beat a tick throw on the same frame IMO.
The question I’d like to answer tho is: are there 2 reversal frames after blockstun? The last one during blockstun, and the 1st one after blockstun, or just the last one, or just the 1st one after? By “reversal” I mean getting the “reversal attack” message.
If you hold back and attack at the same time you should always block. I don’t know what the exact rules are, but if you attack and block on the same frame, so you hold back and attack, you’ll block if you are attacked on the frame that you try to attack on. This is why you can go for a reversal throw against meaty ground attacks that hit high. You must be standing to throw, so you hold back and hit throw, if you get a throw then you get it, if you don’t then you block. The way that opponents can beat this is to attack with crouching meaty ground normals, because you have to stand to throw (unless you are Zangief, Honda, T.Hawk) you can’t crouch to protect against low hitting attacks. I’m not sure what happens if you press forward and an attack on the same frame where an attack overlaps your hit box. I’d guess that you’d probably get it hit based on the fact that simultaneously attacking and blocking gives priority to a block.
If Blanka’s up ball can be thrown on the first frame then that is another example where a red hit box beats a throw. Why? Because a reversal up ball, as long as it hits on the first frame according to the Wiki at least, beat throw attempts. The Wiki says that a reversal up ball, a first frame hitting move, will get thrown if the first frame isn’t close enough to hit the opponent.
There is only one frame off of stun where you can get a reversal message and 1000 points. That is the frame after stun where you would normally return to neutral unless you reverse. From stun you go directly to neutral without any frames in-between that have special properties which is already covered in NKI’s video.
NKI’s video by the way lists SPD’s as having 11 active frames as well which is what the YBH has.
I just wanted to let you guys know that supers also are 50-50 when done on the same frame as any other throw. I expected this, but it is still disappointing that super throws can be beat by normal throws. I tested it using the pause method.
I had someone from TAS Videos help me set up an EMU and ROM so that I could test throw coming out of stun.
Here is the test I used: two Dictator players walking into each other, player 1 does a close standing jab and it hits player 2, player 1 continues walking into player 2 for the entire duration of stun to ensure that they are within throw range once player 2 comes out of stun. On the last frame of stun, player 2 cannot reverse or attack, if you input an attack four frames before that frame (because CPSII takes inputs four frames earlier than they happen on screen) nothing will come out because you’ve entered the command to come out while you are still in stun. You cannot cancel the last frame of stun. It is not possible. If you enter the throw command for player 2, four frames before he goes to neutral from stun, then he will throw on the first frame out of stun. On the last frame of stun you are not throwable. On the first frame out of stun you are throwable. If both players throw on the first frame out of stun then it is 50/50 just as I said on the first page of this thread.
In order to ensure that both players threw on the same frame I mapped their throw inputs (forward+medium punch) all to the same button (so four inputs to one button). When player 1 threw his opponent on the first frame out of stun, the reversal frame for player 2, and player 2 also threw on that frame, it was 50/50 who would get a throw and who would tech a throw. Normal throw from either player had no special advantage either way. I ran this test 50 times I got 23-27 for who got the throw and who didn’t.
Other notes, when two people normal throw each other at the same time, one person gets a throw, but the other gets a throw tech. So you can tech a normal throw on the same frame that you get thrown. I’m not sure if you hear a whiffed normal come out for the losing person in that exchange, as the custom EMU I was using had the sound disabled by default.
So yes. There are not two reversal frames out of stun. Reversal normal throws against perfect tick normal throws are 50/50. Shari is an idiot.
Clearly we are.
I have absolute confidence in your testing being 100% correct despite people bringing up just how hard this is to test.
I am sure you have solved that issue on your own trough your godlike intellect.
Not to mention that something which has been taken for granted as fact due to pure experience by most players is clearly wrong.
I applaud your genius.
How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
Why you think I had TAS videos help me with this test? Those guys know more about programmable inputs than anyone else. And NKI and Raisin aren’t 100% right all of the time. Top players who made the ST Wiki filled it with wrong information. And ST has evolved over the years. Before 2008 if you had said “was a walking 720 possible?” I would have said no. But now we have seen walking 720s and kara 720s in ST with T.Hawk. Things change, new information is found, the game evolves.
What’s funny is that you, without knowing what you were talking about, with no evidence, wildly claimed…
…which is wrong if you test it properly. I didn’t use macros at all to test it. I had someone from TAS walk me through everything frame by frame which was extremely easy to do.
I can’t make it any more clear.
There is only one frame out of stun where you can reversal throw. On that frame you are able to be thrown also. If someone ticks you and throws you on that frame, and you perform a reversal throw on that frame, it is 50/50. I tested this out 50 times. I also tried throwing on the last frame of stun and the person in stun couldn’t perform anything on that frame.
If you don’t want to admit that you were wrong and accept the correct information then that is fine. But I find it hilarious that you said you were done in this thread yet continue to spread wrong information in a stubborn attempt to avoid admitting you were wrong.
I don’t honestly care if I’m wrong. Blitzfu, Maj, Sirlin, and so on have corrected me or disagreed with me on things before. Some people have said in PMs “you put something in the Wiki but I’m not sure if it’s correct” so I double check it and correct it if it need it. The important thing is to give out the right information for the players which is why I’ve been editing the ST Wiki.
You only seem to care about your ego. This isn’t about you dude, this is about getting the right information. If you think that you can come up with a better test than the experts from TAS then go ahead. But until then, put up, or shut up. You were wrong. I don’t care if you admit it. But stay out of this thread if you all you are going to do is poison the community with wrong information.
Actually what i said was:
Oh the irony of this.
So beautiful.
How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?
Let me answer the questions that I’ve seen brought up, all of which I verified by frame-by-frame testing on Kawaks:
*When is the reversal frame?
The reversal frame is the first frame after recovery. Note that there are 4 frames of input lag on any version of ST so you actually have to finish the motion 4 frames early in order for the reversal to come out on the first active frame. Or in other words, the attack must be timed so that after the completion of the motion, 4 frames afterward will be the first frame after recovery. That produces a reversal.
*Does a reversal throw after stun beat out a normal throw?
Yes, on the very first frame of recovery, the -waking- character has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character in range via a reversal throw. The -waking- character also has a 100% chance of throwing a -standing- character who’s also trying to throw at the first active frame; this means the -waking- character has priority on throws on the reversal frame. Also, on the very first frame of recovery after stun, even if the -waking- character doesn’t reversal, the -standing- opponent only has a 50% chance of throwing the -waking- character anyway (the other 50% of the time, the -standing- character gets a normal instead).
So essentially, Shari is correct: in 100% of the time, a reversal throw will beat out a normal throw. This is a special frame where this case occurs. On the frame after the reversal frame, if both character throw, the situation becomes 50/50 again. You can test by frame for yourself like I did with a Ryu mirror: have P1 LP and then on the 8th of 11 recovery frames start the throw motion for either/both sides and you’ll see what I’m saying in action.
*1) Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)
There is no extra frame. But Maj is indeed correct when he says on T0, there are 2 reversal frames from a wakeup but only 1 reversal frame from stun.
*2) Reversal punch lariat from knockdown vs meaty point blank sweep - to test the 1 frame wakeup invincibility (trades if invincible and loses if not)
The point-blank meaty loses to a reversal punch lariat.
*3) Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)
You can only hit an opponent after they’ve fully risen. Also, for each and every character, there is a constant 7 vulnerable landing frames after a jump. The frame advantage for all blocked meaties on wakeup is identical for each character; it only depends on the timing of your meaty (as early as possible for ground meaties, as late as possible for air meaties).
*4) Can normals be kara canceled into throws or block. I’ve heard the normal come out but still blocked a few times. Also seen some things about it. (try seeing if holding block one frame after the normal starts is different from doing it from block)
No, you can only kara cancel normals to specials and supers. You can’t kara to movement, throws, blocks, special normals, or other normals.
*5) Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender’s reversal frame still grab them if they don’t reversal?
Yes, if the waking character doesn’t reversal, that frame is forfeited and they’re grabbed straight from stun with not a single active frame in between.
*6) VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?
No, 13 frames are unthrowable regardless of what the character waking up does.
*7) How many vulnerable frames of lag do you get when landing? Is it different if you use aerials or hit them?
A constant 7 landing frames for every character. It doesn’t matter whether you jump straight up, forward/backward, or use any normal attack. However, special moves (like air hurricane kicks) can affect the landing frames.
*8) Do SPD’s active frames cover landings when done before they land? It doesn’t seem like they do from my experience unless I got hit by an aerial.
Yes, if the SPD is already in its 11 active frames and the opponent lands from the air into the SPD hitbox, then they’ll be grabbed the moment they enter the first of 7 landing frames.
Can you elaborate on this? It seems like what you’re saying would imply, for example, that it’s impossible to safe-jump.
Ah, good catch, 6 of those 7 landing frames can be canceled by any action, including any attack or blocking. The 1st landing frame can’t be canceled and is the reason why there’s no tripguard after a jump.
Thank you Ganelon.
Thanks for answering my questions so thoroughly Ganelon. I’m just a bit confused on two things.
I just want to be absolutely clear on the whole wakeup invincibility thing. The thing that confuses me on this point is that you said punch lariat beats point blank meaties. If the meaty you tried was a sweep, then this would imply there are 2 frames of wakeup invulnerability (one during lariat startup and another during the active hitbox which prevents it from trading). What was the meaty you tried? Also, Blanka’s upballs should beat (not trade) deep crossups on wakeup due to the wakeup invincibility frame right?
Since there is only one reversal frame from hit/blockstun, is there a chance that the game (on default speed) will skip that reversal frame?