In addition to it, I am interested in Rufus’ extra test: the difference of single ticks and multi-hit ticks (e.g., safe jump + tick, jab-jab tick). We know there is a difference between the first hit of a combo or bock string and the second one. It looks like the stun is one frame longer, according to the tests. To be sure, I would like to ask one thing to Rufus: if you remove the SPD from Gief’s tick, will he be thrown by the other character with the macro? You have said he wins every time, but if mu assumption is correct and you have forgotten about changing the perfect tick counter, then Gief would be winning 100% of the time due to the enemy character trying a “negative-edge throw,” which of course does not exist.
Edit: it had been proved that single attacks have a one-frame-longer advantage over further attacks. However, the exact nature of why it happens had not been determined. By then, I had tried testing with Kawaks frame-by-frame function, but failed to provide a definite conclusion.
Well I am not going to agrue. I might very well be wrong. I am not the ST authority. I explained how I understood it to be. Though it wouldn’t be the first time I was incorrect. Not that it really matters. It’s hardly worth the amount of text that has gone into this arguement.
Well whomever wins this debate, I’ll gladly take my hat of to you. :karate:
I still find that hard to believe. If rising gives you an extra frame of invincibility where you can do a move, then you would get TWO frames to reversal throw/SRK/etc while rising and only ONE frame to reversal out of hit/block stun. That seems hard to buy. I suppose it’s possible, but in play they both feel just as tight to land/miss. You’d think having double the frames would make wake-ups feel a lot easier.
I’m curious, are you aware of any videos that cover the rising properties slowed down and in-depth? If not, does anyone know if any of these emulators allow you to easily control the game frame by frame? I tried firing up FBA, but you can only slow it down 50% and I couldn’t really control both players well enough.
The info that was in the ST wiki was right.
Fatboy was talking earlier about NKI explaining this issue.
That is the reason i am saying the info that was posted in the ST wiki was right.
Because NKI wrote that.
But alas that should be edited as to conform with VF4’s opinion because as well all know VF4 can never be wrong about anything and surely knows the game engine better than NKI or Raisin.
From Raisin’s post: “And you’re right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time.”
Shari it’s not the same. If Fatboy is right and there is a special dedicated reversal frame before leaving hit/blockstun then this means a throw executed on that frame will always beat a perfect tickthrow.
If VF4, Blitzfu and myself are right it means that countering a perfect tickthrow with your own has a max success rate of 50%.
I’d like to believe in what Fatboy, Nki and Raison are saying, it would make for a better throw system imo. But I find it far fetched that you can cancel out of the last frame of block/hitstun with a reversal.
Fatboy, NKI and Raisin does say that.
That is what they are saying.
This is right.
People can make all the claims they want about there being some 50/50 chance but until they actually show some solid evidence for it other than “Has been known for over 15 years” or similar statements there is no argument here.
It is not far fetched to believe this but it is what has been taught to anyone learning ST for years.
It is common knowledge.
When i started playing ST that is what i was told and it has worked for me ever since.
This thread is actually the first time i have ever heard of anyone thinking there is a 50/50 chance.
And if people want to make such a claim i suggest they find some evidence for it.
Burden of proof.
Until that happens there is no argument.
A meaty after knockdown, and then a normal timed after the meaty (attacker with + frame adv) to hit on the last frame of stun, and then another test on the frame after the last frame of stun.
If the last frame of stun is a reversal frame like knockdown reversal frame, then it the attacker should be throwable here. If the defender can’t reverse till the frame after, then theoretically they have to actually expose their hitbox to attack in order to throw.
Read this again, trust the info because it’s correct. It’s the way it works. Start playing that way, or don’t, I don’t give a shit. But at least stop this nonsense discussion before it confuses anyone else.
Also you guys might believe that it doesn’t work this way, you just aren’t good at countering throws. Try harder.
Cloth, looking at CPS2 assembly really wont help you figure it out…
Shari, the game does roll the dice if the throws are input during the same frame if both characters are neutral and not in stun. Like if you both walk up to one another attempting a walk in throw, and you both input the throw on the same frame, within range, the game tosses a coin.
^ if the reversal frame is after hit/blockstun that is exactly what happens with a reversal throw. two throws active the same time. which is why people are talking about 50/50s.
People might find the discussion silly but I would like to see a well documented test. It shouldn’t be too hard, the amount of block/hitstun is known. Now determine whether the reversal frame is after, or on the last frame of block/hitstun. And determine whether you can be thrown on the reversal frame. Those two pieces of data can put the nail in the coffin and it would serve as a addition to the already well documented features of the SF2 engine.
You guys know the “o” key isn’t on the same line as the “l” key right?
:lol:
No one doubts special moves work, or that wakeup reversals work, or that you can hold forward and your character moves.
However, there is doubt about reversals after stun, why should it work the same way as wakeup when the person isn’t in the same state. contactable state vs. invuln state.
Also, looking at the programming can actually tell you alot about what they were trying to do/achieve and why/how it works. The game is programmed to do something during stun and the changing of states.
Agreed. I’d really like to understand exactly how the engine works. If somebody had a programmable controller, these scenarios would be easy to test. But until some test like that happens, I’m not convinced of anything.
I’ve seen lots of conflicting answers. I think we should just try our best to come up with 100% reproducible and accurate tests Rufus and anyone else with programmable controllers can do to better our understanding. I’ve been doing some testing myself although the results aren’t really new. I used the start button in training mode to help me input throws at the same time to see who/what wins, but everything indicates 50-50 no matter what throws are used (also handy for testing throw ranges). Haven’t tried supers yet though. Another thing I tried using this method was to see what priority normals/normal throws have when pressed simultaneously (like Gief will always punch airthrow when you input punch and kick at the same time). Punches in general seem to outprioritize kicks so far.
The things that I’d like to see tested/verified are
Extra frame of hit/blockstun for first hits (seems like a myth)
Reversal punch lariat from knockdown vs meaty point blank sweep - to test the 1 frame wakeup invincibility (trades if invincible and loses if not)
Frame advantage of knockdown hits on block. Some thread stated it varied based on get up timings of character (easy to see with frame by frame)
Can normals be kara canceled into throws or block. I’ve heard the normal come out but still blocked a few times. Also seen some things about it. (try seeing if holding block one frame after the normal starts is different from doing it from block)
Does SPD performed by the attacker on the defender’s reversal frame still grab them if they don’t reversal?
VF4 mentioned something about 13 frames of unthrowable frames after knockdown, but only if they are in a neutral position (not attacking). - Is this 13 frame invulnerability lost by attacking?
How many vulnerable frames of lag do you get when landing? Is it different if you use aerials or hit them?
Do SPD’s active frames cover landings when done before they land? It doesn’t seem like they do from my experience unless I got hit by an aerial.
Some of them aren’t really related to anything from this thread but I figure I might as well ask them now.
I definitely think that it’s easier to reversal throw meaty attacks after knockdown or a reset than it is after hitstun/blockstun. The best example of this is Boxer and Ken’s throw loops. When they cross under after a Headbutt or Knee Bash, I piano my throws as soon as I land, and I almost always throw them out of their meaty attack. Same thing after knockdown. Whenever I use Zangief or Hawk, I’m a whore for reversal 360s on wakeup, and they are so much easier to get than after blocking an attack. I don’t think there are 2 invincible frames after knockdown/reset, just the 1st frame. But I mean, this issue is not really debatable because Akiba has captured this data on NKI’s site, and he states that the 1st frame after knockdown is definitely invincible.
Thanks for posting those links Shari. I think that settles the question for me. There is so much good stuff in the ST forums. One of these days, I’m gonna comb through the whole damn thing. = J Also, that hitstun/blockstun post by NKI would have been ***so ***helpful when I was compiling the hitstun/blockstun data. LOL
I think that without empirical evidence, the best way to settle this issue is based on the word of knowledgeable posters. I would take the word of NKI over almost anybody, and I’m sure most people would too, because he doesn’t talk out of his ass. NKI usually tests almost everything he claims in a post, including things like pushback on hitstun being the same as blockstun, and if he hasn’t tested it, it’s usually a very well-informed guess. So based on this post by NKI:
“You’re in the same position either way: you have one frame to reverse, and if you miss that frame, it just comes down to who times it better.”
I think that what EA and fatboy have been saying is correct. There is one invincible frame during blockstun (the last one or the 11th frame after a Jab/Short), same as the 1st frame after knockdown. And the 1st frame after blockstun (the 12th) is not invincible. Therefore, the defender does have an advantage. I think the reason I thought there was no invincible frame was due to trying to reversal throw after blockstun ended and not before. But empirical evidence is always better than anything, and if it is ever proven that this is incorrect, then I will agree with it. But I think this is why NKI said that if you miss the reversal frame, it becomes 50-50. So yeah, I think the last frame of hitstun/blockstun can be cancelled with a reversal throw or reversal attack. But I don’t think there are 2 invincible frames, only 1, same as the 1st frame after knockdowns and resets. Kinda makes sense that it is the same across the board IMO.
But of course, without empirical evidence, we could all be wrong. = J
Those are some excellent questions Big O, and I’d like to see more empirical evidence to answer them too.
I think you’re talking about the Hitstun and blockstun frame data thread, and I already made it clear that get up speed has nothing to do with blockstun for any attacks.
I would say yes, because SPD has 11 active throw frames (on NKI’s site), and if the defender does nothing, they will be thrown after the 1 invincible frame IMO.
Edit: it’s Coth, not Cloth. It’s amazing to me how many people have got this wrong. Stop sliding your fingers across the keyboard and actually push the buttons! You would think game players would have better precision than non-gamers when it comes to typing. LOL