One this has just came to my mind: the frame advantage after an attack is longer for the first attack of a combination. So, isn’t the simultaneous SPD/Typhoon after two jabs happening at the second possible frame, while the SPD/Typhoon after a single jab is happening at the first one?
Edit: Rufus has cleared it up already. Thanks.
Nice tests, man. As always, helpful stuff.
and the reversal frames are after hit/blockstun ends?
Can you be thrown on those reversal frames? What happens if the attacker lands a throw on the first reversal frame?
what you said has massive implications but you aren’t given them their due with short replies. If what you said is true and you cannot do a reversal normal throw on the first reversal frame, then perfect tickthrows cannot ever be countered by reversal normal throws because they can’t happen. This means guaranteed throws on chargeless characters even within their throw range.
That is contrary to everything we believed.
sorry, that was a reply to someone else.
I was getting a negative edge SPD/Typhoon on the reversal frame instead of a positive edge one on the frame before - there’s only one reversal frame.
As I mentioned, my testing got confused by accidentental negative edge special moves.
It appears that you can only be thrown by a reversal throw (normal or special) during the reversal frame.
[media=youtube]jCapuhsOMcg&#t=6m14s[/media]
According to Sirlin’s CCC2 tutorials you can use normal throws as reversals against meaty ground normals. This is illustrated in T.Akiba’s wake up animation data being expressed in half frames. And there are numerous examples of matches on YouTube where someone does a reversal throw while rising. So normal throws are possible on the special reversal frame after the rising animation. And they should be possible coming out of stun as well.
Put HDR on turbo 0. Put someone in block stun with an attack, then have the person who is in stun rapid fire a normal attack, so that it animates on the first frame out of stun. Then put the person in block stun again, using the same attack from before, and have that person do a reversal special attack now. Count how many frames of block stun they are in (it should be equal if you are using the same move each time) and then count how quickly the rapid fired normal starts up and how quickly the reversal special attack comes out. If both attacks come out on the same frame after stun then there are not two reversal frames built into stun animations. If the reversal attack comes out one frame earlier out of stun as compared to the rapid fired (at 1/60) normal then there are two reversal frames. The attacks should come out on the same frame.
This is all extremely confusing. Forgive me if you felt this is all clear but it is not to me. It is also early in the morning and i have not yet slept)
Situation1: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the FIRST reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.
Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?
Situation2: character A sets up a tick throw (normal). Character B is in the SECOND reversal frame after leaving block/hitstun from the tick.
Can character A throw character B on this frame? (normal or command, does it matter?)
Can character B execute a normal reversal throw?
Can character B execute a command reversal throw?
If Character A can throw character B on this frame, aside from unthrowable special moves, does character B have an option to escape/counter?
VF4, this test would only be valid if there were no inherent input delay in the game. Somehow, there is some 4 frame buffer in the game, and the whole buffer could be used. But all this is pointless, as Rufus has already mentioned that it was just a negative edge reversal, in fact, stating that there is only one reversal frame.
Edit: As for rapid fire attacks, even with the highest rate (30 Hz) there should still be a 50% chance that the attack will not come out in the first possible frame.
Please don’t tease us fatboy. Link bro! joking, but also serious:lovin:
You’re talking about situations where it’s not a tick throw, right? Like both characters walking up to each other and executing a throw at the same time. I agree with that. However, it’s tick throws that need to be figured out whether they are 50-50 also.
Why not? To me, a reversal throw happens on the 1st frame after blockstun, after wakeup and after a reset.
If a defender blocks a cr Short, they are in blockstun for 11 frames:
1st frame of blockstun—>11th and last frame of blockstun = unthrowable due to blockstun
12th frame = 1st frame after blockstun (why is this frame unthrowable?)
If you are saying that the 12th frame has the same invincible property that the 1st frame has after wakeup (unthrowable), then yes, I would say this makes sense. However, if the 1st frame after blockstun had the same unthrowable property as wakeup, and NKI was the one who discovered this himself, since it’s not part of Akiba’s data, then I think this issue would not be confusing at all. In fact, we would hear everybody saying the same thing about blockstun as they do about wakeup: “it’s invincible to throws, same as wakeup”.
But we don’t hear this. The issue is complicated because there is no definitive proof that the 1st frame after blockstun is immune to throws. And playing the game does not support this theory either. But no matter what NKI or Akiba or anybody else says, empirical evidence is the only way to bust this myth. And I have not seen any data proving this one way or the other.
A reversal Shoryuken beats tick throws because the 1st frame of the Shoryuken is invincible, not because the 1st frame after blockstun is invincible. If a reversal Shoryuken is executed after blocking a cr Short, the 1st frame of the Shoryuken occurs right after the last frame of blockstun. So the defender goes from 11 frames of unthrowability (due to blockstun), immediately into an invincible state (also unthrowable), with no break in between. This does not have anything to do with the 1st frame after blockstun being invincible, but rather the invincibility of the Shoryuken. If the defender did a reversal Hadoken instead of Shoryuken, they’d get tossed for sure.
12th frame = 1st frame after blockstun = 1st frame of reversal Shoryuken = unthrowable due to invincibility of Shoryuken
Akiba’s data shows that the 1st frame after wakeup (or half of it) is completely invincible regardless of what the waking up opponent does. You can even start a jump by holding up after wakeup, and the character will actually start the 1st frame of their pre-jump animation before getting hit by the meaty attack or whatever.
Excerpt from NKI’s site in the “getting up speed” section:
"So for example, Claw has 80.5 listed. That means that he can start to jump on frame 80, but he can’t be hit until frame 81. "
The 1st frame after wakeup is not just unthrowable, but unhittable too. Truly invincible. See above.
I also find that some of the posted tests are a bit confusing too. Don’t get me wrong, I truly appreciate all the posters taking the time to do the tests (oldschool_BR, Thelo and Rufus and anybody else). But the posted results are not as detailed as they could be, I guess.
Anyways, I decided to add examples to the situations described by Fulaani so that it’s very clear what that situation would look like in the game:
Thanks again to all the posters doing the tests, it is truly appreciated. This is the kind of stuff I love: breaking new ground, busting old myths and shit. Really good stuff. :tup:
I thought Maj’s article on Turbo speeds, said that SF2 had two reversal frames, but frame skipping reduced it to one. You might get a small difference on T0?
http://sonichurricane.com/?p=1864
“Normally this isn?t a problem for cancels because impact freeze provides a large margin of error. It?s usually not a problem for reversal timing either,** because almost all Capcom games have a 2-frame reversal window which can narrow to 1 frame but never disappears.** However, high turbo speeds wreak utter havoc on 1-frame links and other combo components requiring 1-frame input accuracy.”
*Although for another thread, he states in the article that internal frames are still processed, yet at higher speeds the game actually does lose a reversal frame. :looney:
EDIT: Maybe SFII doesn’t have two reversal frames at T0 since it says almost.
Yeah, I expected to see two reversal frames because of that article. At least after getting hit, there is only one reversal frame - that is, only one frame where the ‘reversal attack’ message comes up.
Is it possible that the reversal frame out of stun just has different properties than the wakeup version?
Kinda like prejump frames are grounded frames with different on hit properties.
Yes. The first frame out of wake up is a frame where you are fully standing (and therefore can throw) and also you are completely invincible. It is a special frame of animation that all characters have. This is why a meaty attack, where the active (or red) hit boxes are overlapping your sprite as you wake up, can be thrown. This is a reversal throw, and it is done on the last frame, a special frame, at the end of the rising animation. There is also a randomness factor associated with this frame, meaning if you try a reversal throw on that frame, you have a small chance (less than 10% if I remember correctly) that a normal attack will come out and you won’t get a throw. Meaning that meaty attack will connect against you even though you properly executed a throw with reversal timing. Also after a rising animation, you have 13 frames where if you remain in neutral, you are immune to throws. If you attempt to attack, or jump, or throw, then you leave neutral and become able to be thrown. This is why you can’t throw someone immediately after they wake up. You must tick them with a meaty, tick them after they wake up, or [media=youtube]afi4Cu7r1_I&#t=3m35s"[/media] and try to throw then though it’s very risky.
The special invincible reversal frame, random chance at failing reversal throws, and 13 frames of throw invulnerability, you aren’t afforded any of those when coming out of hit or block stun. Imagine being immune to throws for 13 frames out of stun. Stun is very straightforward, you go from stun, to neutral, with no in-between frames of any kind. Reversal attacks still work, but reversal throws become counter throws, because a reversal throw against a perfect tick throw only gives you a 50/50 shot of actually winning. A reversal attack, that has priority over throws, will win every time of course coming out of stun.
That makes sense, except for the part where Rufus’s test shows that Zangief getting hit by a jab, then doing a “reversal out of stun” SPD always wins against a perfect tick throw. If what you just said was correct, Zangief should be getting thrown 50% of the time, right? But that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Here’s what we know:
A) In non-reversal situations, command throw vs normal throw is 50/50 (Honda ochio vs Bison normal throw)
B) In “reversal out of knockdown”, reversal throw always wins (both command throw and normal throw)
Here’s what we’re testing now:
C) In “reversal out of stun”, does command throw (defender) always win? Rufus’s test #2 says yes, but according to VFF’s explanation, no.
D) In “reversal out of stun”, does normal throw (defender) vs command throw (attacker) always win? Both Rufus’s test #4 and VFF’s explanation say no, it’s a 50/50 situation.
E) In “reversal out of stun”, does normal throw vs normal throw always win? Rufus’s Bison (short tick) vs Bison test says yes, and VFF’s explanation says no, it’s a 50/50 situation.
Am I missing anything?
:karate:
@blitzfu
It in the ST turbo in tha’ house thread. There are like 4,000 posts in there. That is why I didn’t link it.
Respectfully, you are incorrect here. (not flaming)
It sounds like you read wiki, and repeated nearly word for word. However, though VF4 has done a great job updating the wiki, he left some ambiguity in some of his write up. (but over all excellent job SF4!!!)
The wiki states:
As I stated it seems you repeated the highlighted area nearly word for word (maybe you didn’t but it seems like it)… but since the write-up didn’t clearly indicate what the “first frame possible” actually was you assumed it was the
This is incorrect; the reversal frame is the LAST frame before you leave hit/block stun. Not the first frame out of stun.
So when you ask
You need to follow the following game mechanic rules.
While a player is in hit/block stun they are unthrowable.
During the last frame of hit/block stun a reversal can be executed. Reversals are special, Supers, and Throws.
Therefore, a player can execute a throw during the last frame of his/her character’s unthrowbale state.
This means that a player can execute a throw while being totally immune to an opponent?s throw for one frame while coming out of the “tick” in the “tick-throw” attempt.
Reversal thorws have a clear advantage over normal tick throw attempts, simply because one character can be thrown while the other cannot.
AFAICT It’s possible to do normal attacks on that frame as well. This could be important since, for example, Chun Li’s down/toward + Roundhouse is a plausible throw escape.
Are you saying that you can do a move (throw/SRK/etc) that actually cancels the last frame of block/hit stun. In other words, normally if you do nothing(block) you’d be in stun for X frames, but if you do a reversal you’re visually only in stun for X - 1 frames? I find that kind of hard to believe.
I’ve also always been skeptical about this magical invincible frame on wake-up. The reason is that I see no need for it. You can reversal throw/SRK on wakeup and you can reversal throw/SRK after stun. And in both cases I don’t see the reason for the game to make you invincible during that reversal frame. Intuitively, it would seem like the game would work like this:
f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f4 P1 = tries to jump, P2 = meaty fierce -> Fierce beats jump, so P2 hits P1
f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f4 P1 = Ken’s SRK, P2 = meaty fierce -> SRK is invincible, so P1 hits P2
f1 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f2 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f3 P1 = getting up (invincible), P2 = meaty fierce -> Nothing happens
f4 P1 = throws, P2 = meaty fierce -> Throw beats fierce, so P1 throws P2
I also think the exact same thing happens when coming out of block/hit stun. In other words, first the game lets each player choose their move. Then it figures out which one wins. I’m not saying this is right. I’m just saying it seems like the game would still play the way we all know it to play without any magical invincible frame or exiting stun early. If these properties do exist, I would love to see a frame by frame explanation of this stuff, like NKI’s reversal vs tick throw video. Sadly, it doesn’t sound like there’s an easy way to test this stuff with these emulators :xeye:
Well, it’s definitely before throw immunity expires.
No it is not. Blitzfu is correct. The reversal frame from stun is not on the last frame of stun. When you are put into stun for 11 frames, you are put into stun for those full 11 frames, you cannot cancel the last frame of stun into anything, you cannot reverse or throw on that frame. You are locked into stun for the entire duration until you recover into neutral. The way a reversal attack works, is that instead of recovering directly into neutral from stun,[media=youtube]6i1TPQQ_AVA"[/media], which is (hopefully) not throwable. You cannot throw on that last 11th frame of stun, you must throw 12 frames after you’ve been hit, which is on the frame following the last frame of stun.
In NKI’s video, Guile isn’t stopping his last frame of stun by going into a flash kick, he recovers from stun first, and then does a move that becomes unthrowable on the first frame. How much clearer it be made? Guile goes from stun, unthrowable, to throwable with no special in-between frames when he gets thrown. Then, he goes from stun, to reversal flash kick with no in-between frames, and beats the SPD.
The first part is correct but the second part is not. You cannot execute anything during stun. You have to recover first. And reversals can be normal attacks as well though they aren’t that useful unless done as throws.
Put someone into stun with an attack that causes 11 frames of block stun, have them do a reversal, and count how many frames of stun that they were in. It’s 11 frames of stun, if they reverse, or if they don’t reverse. No difference. They don’t stop on the 10th frame of stun and then perform a reversal. If I’m reading you correctly that is what you are saying right? That the last frame of stun can be stopped and replaced by a reversal? Because that is simply not the case.
Not from stun though. The special reversal frame for throws only exists after rising animations which is why T.Akiba purposefully expresses rising animations in half frame values and nothing else. Rising animations have other special properties as well which I’ve already posted above. Rising recovery is distinct and different from stun recovery.
This is the crux of the issue. If this can be confirmed or debunked with certainty then we can also have certainty on this whole counter throwing business.
And this confirms what I’ve been holding back from saying…read my FAQ! 
I detail this in the tick throwing section.
Of course, if this gets proven wrong, I’m definitely changing it. 
I anxiously await the results.