So uh, we have conflicting results here.
- That was a big mistake on my part: the point-blank meaty -beats- the reversal punch lariat 100% of the time. I tried meaty c.HK for Ryu, Sagat, Zangief, and dictator. Thanks for catching that; this oversight would probably have been avoided if I had further explained the reasoning behind the test, which was to see whether the reversal frame had hit invincibility. Blanka’s reversal upball trades with meaties because the reversal frame is just the first frame of the special move and adopts the special move’s first frame. However, there’s something unique about the reversal throw that makes it invincible on the first frame. It grabs straight through any meaties (normals, specials, supers, etc.) as long as the opponent is in range. That’s why it also beats perfectly timed tick throws.
- Not that I can see. I was always able to successfully perform Ryu’s reversal dp.
One reason that it may seem like the aggressor is at an overwhelming advantage is because the aggressor is controlling the pace. He will tend to have a better feel for when that opponent is going to come out of block/hit stun, because he is the one controlling that rhythm. Certainly an experienced player can also get a good feel for it as well, but if an aggressor keeps you off balance, a 50/50 where you’re not on top of the timing and he is, is going to feel much more like an 80/20.
This is assuming a 50/50 situation is there to begin with, obviously.
Thanks again Ganelon for clearing things up.
Now we just need VF4 to come in and try to figure out why his tests results are different from Rufus and Ganelon’s…
This ^
It sure doesn’t look like anything is solved yet.
It’s been solved, unless someone wants to end up looking like a fool forcing me to upload video results. It’s difficult to debate frame-by-frame testing, esp. since you can test it yourself if you really cared. Everyone makes mistakes; no big deal as long as they’re willing to learn from them.
Ganelon, any chance you could give a quick breakdown of how to do frame by frame testing? I’ve been wanting to know how that works for awhile now, just so I can test out various things I run into.
Sure, use Kawaks and HSF2 (Asian is the only only one available) on T0 (the only setting without in-game frameskip; ST has in-game frameskip on all speed settings). Read the frames threads and YSH to understand appropriate input lag, startup, active frames, hitstun/blockstun, recovery, etc. or just use trial and error. Enter your command one frame per command: pause, hold down key, go to next frame, hold down next key, go to next frame, repeat until you finish the motion, and go to next frame continuously until you see the action come out.
To get a reversal, simply start entering after knockdown/stun and you’ll see the message if you started in the right window ended it 4 frames before recovery. Try to make sense of the YSH numbers and the special frame numbers first and you’ll see how they correspond to each frame of the game.
Thanks for the info. One question though, what’s YSH? Yoga Book Hyper?
Ha, whoops, YSH is me thinking of Yoga Book Hyper mixed with Yoga Strike Backers. Yeah, I meant “YBH.”
FWIW the testing I did was with a homebrew 2-stick programmable set-up, an AVDC-100 which allows frame-by-frame recording, and HDR set to turbo 0 on an Xbox 360.
very interesting thread
interesting ganelon…
A question of my own…
I’m T-Hawk, I do the following: j. jab > cr. jab > tick Typhoon
How is it that someone like Bison can jump out? I’ve had some players even throw me right after the jab. Help?
Your tick isn’t frame-tight and you’re positioned too close.
It can be hard to grab M Bison online because of how tight you have to be with the grab and because online can visually mess you up with lag.
I can do tick throws pretty tightly/accurately. There are people online who have funny lag ALL the time and can jump straight out of 99% of my tick attempts. With these people I just give up and do regular attacks for the rest of the match :rock:
Bison also has the fastest jump start-up.
Read my blog as to how lag affects things like HDR and tick throws. Long story short is your opponent doesn’t receive your button input until X amount of frames have passed since you input it. X is defined as ping in ms / 16 = number of frames.
Example, 2 players have 160 ping. 160/16=10 frames from the time you hit the button until the opponent gets it.
I wanted to ask a question along these lines. Let’s take Ken for example. Ken jumps toward me and I do a meaty cr.roundhouse in order to trip him as he lands, but he executes a dragon punch the moment he hits the floor. Meaty sweep loses.
I presume this is a result of lag?
Am I right in thinking that if Ken is to jump forward and do a dragon punch with the correct timing that there would be just 1 frame where he is able to be tripped, so the meaty should not lose?
What I’m getting at is if Ken does an empty jump toward, will a meaty sweep beat whatever he tries to do as he lands? What about landing and throwing?
A sweep will always beat a jumpin if timed right. If you miss it’s due to bad timing or lag.