This is quite literally the best thread ever as far as sf4 goes. Just sayin’.
Thanks for the info! Hate Chun spamming free hazanshus on my Abel!
I fight a lot of Chun and basically Abel can’t outpoke Chun. You can’t even counter poke her s.HK with Abel’s c.mk. Basically you need really good defence and ability to tech throw all the time. Do not jump towards Chun. The only times I jump are:
1)When she jumps, use j.HP -> dash under mixup
2)in range to punish fireball (rarely happens)
3)She whiff’s s.HK
Abel has to choose the right moment to initiate his offence and outzone Chun to stand a chance.
Thats one of my favorites vs Rufus.
This thread is becoming insanely awesome. Just saying.
Hi…
I read your post and nice one Hav … Keep going buddy… just awe some … Thanks for sharing…
Glad there was some information about C.Viper. I got whitewashed completely by one on my friendslist. It’s like you can’t reversal anything she does. Going to try again soon and see how I fare after reading that stuff Hav posted.
If Fei decides to turtle too, what next for Abel? Fei can do SAFE rekka chip damage and then turtle safely. Remember, turtling can go both ways.
Updated the first page with my (lacking) impressions of the Fuerte and Gen fights. I really know absolutely nothing about the Fei Long fight, so I’ll let you guys keep arguing it out…
Get a life lead. You can focus a rekka and if you’re not to close you can also focus chicken wing. So if he starts to try to break focus you can chip him once or twice.
Some comments on the Fuerte thing (from an Abel and Fuerte player):
Most people like to jump against Fuerte on wakeup, it’s something a good Fuerte player will learn to deal with, against Abel or anyone. You are right that eating a splash in the air lets you quick stand, and that it’s not the end of the world, but it also loses to meaty run back, stop, slide, and you can’t quick stand that. Also, when Fuerte has ultra, jumping sucks. Fuerte is good at baiting jumping, and Abel has no way to avoid getting ultra’D once he jumps. Jumping also loses to run back do nothing, because he can react with EX guacamole, or late slide.
The fight really comes down to who gets the first knockdown, and they’re both pretty good at it. 5-5 sounds about right just for that reason. I’d think jump back works against Fuerte just fine until he has ultra. You might eat a press, a slide, and then avoid a tortilla (the “air grabby thing”), which is tolerable given Abel’s stamina. Forcing the Fuerte player to do more of the counter-jumping moves that lose to focus steers the guessing game into a bit more of your favor. Just be careful when Fuerte has ultra. Run back do nothing (or react with EX guacamole to jumps and stuff) isn’t a terrible option for Fuerte in general, because he can punish jumps and focus (with far standing HK, for example) on reaction. I also think Fuerte can do meaty tortilla and then EX guac your jump (this is a character-specific strategy and I don’t really know its application on Abel).
Yeah… I knew I stopped doing it for some reason… All that sounds about right.
So question: how do you suggest waking up against Fuerte when he has Ultra? It seems like everything is the wrong answer. Wake-up block seems like the best option, but there are clear issues with that.
Wake up backdash works respectably. The Fuerte player can beat backdash by delaying his attacks, but it’s risky for him to try it (meaty slide is no longer meaty, and other obvious reasons). As far as I know, Fuerte cannot ultra Abel’s backdash unless he’s super psychic. I think in that video you linked, TDK was trying to option-select meaty tortilla with ultra to punish Abel options, but it lost to backdash. Backdash also beats tortilla and splash and resets against run back do nothing.
It’s not infallible, though. Fuertes can start to mix up with run back, stop, jump forward which looks pretty close to tortilla, but it’s a little slower and beats backdash, either with a free RSF, or else a free blocked jump in for Fuerte, who can then land and cancel a ground normal into cross over splash (and that is HARD to block), which puts you back in trouble. I should mention this is typically a pretty good option for Fuerte in general to throw into the vortex just to keep the opponent honest (as well as jump forward air throw, another thing that beats jumping AND backdashing if done meaty). That’s pretty tricky Fuerte, though. Make sure your opponent can even do that before you worry about it.
Well, I’m really only worried about beating high level players when I’m talking about anything. I’ve lost in tournament to skisonic 4 times in a row now… ( :sad ). I don’t lose to other Fuerte’s though. I’m not too worried about beating scrubs/intermediate players. I don’t really need to know matches if they don’t…
Good stuff though. Thanks. Post updated (basically just removed scrubby, iffy info that shouldn’t have been there to begin with).
Grrrr. I’ll find a way. =)
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I believe this match is a little worse. Probably about 7-3. I’ve never seen how other Abel players deal with the match-up. I have a few new ideas but I would definitely like to read other opinions and experiences on the match. Justin knew exactly how to pin me down while forcing me into the corner. Ie: Standing Jabs. Dive Kicking, walking forward a little then dive kicking again. I knew that Justin knew that my only escape option since Abel has no reversal counter was to roll, which is why I did not decide to roll.
Starting the match with no meters doesn’t stop Rufus from mauling you. But it does give Abel less options. Rufus can wake-up with Snake Strike which stops roll mix-ups from knockdown. once Rufus has meter, Abel has to keep his distance, avoid getting cornered, while attempting to maul back at the same time, and Abel isn’t the greatest at multitasking defensively. It’s very difficult to gain any type of momentum fighting Rufus.
You are right, though, that “everything is a bad option against Fuerte when he has ultra”, which is why Fuerte’s ultra is dangerous. Sometimes you just have to guess with a block and eat a tortilla throw. Jumping with some characters is still feasible (those that can alter trajectory and avoid ultra), but Abel isn’t one of them.
I watch Daigo play Fuertes and he neutral jumps or back jumps a lot on Fuerte from mid range. I don’t know how he avoids getting smoked with a random splash or EX guacamole or something, but he seems to just look into the Fuerte’s soul and knows when it’s safe and when it isn’t.
I think in general it’s important to remain calm against Fuerte, as you mentioned in your writeup. You can get stuck in the vortex for a while and it feels pretty bad, but it’s better than getting hit with his ultra, and it’s not as bad as getting hit for huge damage and stun in, say, Akuma’s vortex. Blocking and backdashing in general is decent enough (mixed in with rolls when you guess a non-tortilla option). Not many Fuertes do more than two tortillas in a row, so eventually you’re going to guess right with your block and not be too worse for wear.
Here are a few thoughts on the Fuerte matchup…
6-4 or better imo
Fuerte really depends on knocking you down and making you guess wrong to win… thats basically his win-condition against almost every other character. Abel has no sure way of escaping his mix-up (neither does most of the cast, but this doesn’t make the matchups even or in Fuertes favor do they?). But once you start your offence, Fuerte has even less options to escape it.
Your best bet is to just take it like a man and guess/punish his mixup. Im gonna breifly explain your options in your wakeup.
FA - really good option if you guess he’s gonna go for tostada, as it crumples him and you get a free combo/knockdown. It’s also pretty safe, use it often without getting predictable.
Blocking - blocking is actually really good IF you know what your opponent is going to do, just for the fact that if you block a tostada press (body slam) you can punish it with either sweep or fwd.mk. Its still a really risky option though because Fuerte can kill your block pretty fast, only recomended if you get a perfect read on your opponent.
Backdash - This is a pretty good option, it beats almost everything timed meaty and his tortilla spin (command grab). Dont get too predictable though, since a good Fuerte will catch on and punish your backdash with delayed slides/body slams, or a tricky jump-in leading to RSF.
EX CoD - I personaly love this option, it beats slide/tostada and knocks them down, but loses to tortilla. EX CoD is when you guess they are going for anything that isnt throws/command throws. If you tag them with this, you basically get out of their mixup and start your own. The match can end in seconds if you get your vortex going on. Note, dont get too predictable, because Fuerte can neutral jump and punish with RSF if he sees this coming. Also note, Fuerte can’t reliably punish EX CoD on block, so its a pretty safe option if you connect with it.
EX TT - I’ll just throw this one here, it beats slide/tostada, but loses to basically everything else. Not the safest option, but if you are positive they are going to slide/tostada, go for it.
EX roll - This is a pretty safe option, it beats everything except throws/tortilla. If you get away with this, it will just reset the match and put you in a safe distance.
Now, by the look of things it seems that tortilla beats almost every option… and that isn’t too far off from the truth. Fuertes command grab is a bitch… most of his damage output in this matchup will come from this IMO, but you do have options to punish it. If you time it right, neutral jump lk will stuff it pretty nicely and he will reset right were you want him… right next to you.
Alright, i’ve explained how you’re gonna deal with his offence, now lets talk about breaking down his defense.
Getting in a confortable distance against Fuerte is tough, he’s always moving. Just walk/dash forward towards him, he has no real footsies game so dashing in is pretty safe. If he tries to do a bullshit run-back tortilla or something like that just jump forward lp, it will stuff ALL his air options, and you get a air-reset on him… how you follow it is up to you.
Once you get in a confortable distance on him, this is where you shine. One word (two words?)…fwd.mk… seriously.
After a blocked dash kick the match can pretty much end in seconds. Fuerte has less options to escape your mixup than you do to escape his. Just be completely unpredictable with your followups, use cr.lp -> st.mp alot, and abuse the knockdowns you score. You can also follow up your dash kick with a blockstring into another dash kick pretty safely, abuse this. Dont forget that your knockdowns get you wayyyy more damage than his does, and you start off with alot more health than him.
Fuerte is one of those characters where you really have to sit down and study the matchup to do good in it, but once you learn it you’ll see that he is one of your easier opponents.
Does anyone have a video of this in action? I can’t seem to get it to work, or maybe I’m misunderstanding stuffs.
EX TT is hit invulnerable, so if you do it late while his followup is coming down… you will dodge his hit and grab him when he lands. You basically have the startup and hit frames (5 +2) = 7 frames for him to try to hit you, and then land.
the follow up has 3 frames of hit, so you have to time your 5-6 frames to cover his 3 frame hit move, and you will get him… Basically do it as late as possible. I think Falling sky is probably a little more consistent than this, at least thats what i have ready. My timing on it has proved not so great against the follow up.
Focus is a great option as well, and what i would prefer to use.
Well, not every Rufus is Justin. You’re right though, he seemed to know exactly what to do to shut you down. Even if you started building some momentum, he was able to use an EX Messiah to reset or even just jump to avoid the mix-up. Abel seems to have no reliable anti-air, which puts him at a real disadvantage, and Falling Sky traded on that one attempt early in the first round.
This is a match-up that I haven’t seen too much of, and would like to have more information as to what Abel’s general mindset should be.