Need help against Honda and Chun.
This thread is awesome. I’ve been wanting to use Abel for a while now (had to get comfortable with a stick first) and this will help me a lot!!
hey try not to do these types of post yet. do that in the other thread. this one is still building. if you look they are doing one for pretty much every character. hold on tight.
What exactly are the issues with Chun? We already put up a Chun section. I have more info coming in on Chun, but I’d like to know where you’re having issues.
As for Chun in general, I tend to lose that match pretty consistently, so I’m not sure how much help I’d be. I’m sure Busta has more quality Chun experience than I do. Maybe he could answer for you?
Fei Long
Apparently Fei Long owns Abel pretty badly:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=207995
I have to admit, I do have problems with Fei. Can anyone with decent Fei Long experience contribute to this thread? Especially with regards to dealing with the chicken wing from mid range.
EDIT:
Thanks Hav and the other contributors for this thread.
These points I want to either correct, add to, or question (since I main Rose). I’ll address them from the first to last paragraph.
So sliding is definitely a mix-up set up, which means there’s no guarantee a good Rose player will use it “by the book”. In the Rose vs Abel match up, I see Abel as a faster Zangief that I can jump on. So with that in mind, I definitely respect the command throw. But just because I respect it doesn’t mean I won’t work my way around it and bait it.
When Rose slides, there are these follow-ups all depending on distance:
- throw, which is very risky honestly.
- close s.mk which has anti-grab properties and is a real staple in this match up since Abel has no DP-like move and it can combo. Your best bet would be EX COD if you see it coming. It has its risk as well since spacing is very proper. What I mean is if a Rose player thinks they’re going to use that move, there’s a chance they’ll get the far s.mk instead which Abel can definitely TT.
- neutral jump, back jump, or cross up. all distance depending.
- back dash and either block, spiral, or poke.
- block. I’d say this is one of the riskier follow-ups and would be best used in anticipation of a non throw reversal.
Side notes about slide: Goes under wheel kick at the right distance, evades/counters jump-ins, and beats randumb ultra all day.
So while I’m not sure exactly which kick you’re referring to, I’ll assume it’s her far standing HK. yes it’s pretty quick and has great distance and is one of many attacks I would use to play the zoning game which I feel is the one and only way a Rose can win. This match up is probably most similar to Abel vs Dhalsim in the fact that Rose outranges Abel (though not to as extreme of a degree) but where it’s different is that Rose is a bit quicker and more mobile than Dhalsim aside from his teleport.
Lastly the often misunderstood soul spark. It’s not a sure fire way for Rose to get into fast trouble. it could very well be bait. For those who don’t know, there are 3 variations on sparks: LP = slow moving, fast start up, long recover. MP = average speed, medium start up, medium recovery. HP = fast speed, long start up, fast recovery. With that in mind, watch when you roll because you may find yourself taking a hit, or blocking, or getting thrown even, shortly after. However, any Rose player who’s thoughtlessly and carelessly spamming projectiles, at the very least LP spark, probably doesn’t know how to play Rose and is most likely free.
So that’s all I have to contribute for now. feel free to ask questions, or to ask me to elaborate on how I play the match. Remember though, Just because you know, doesn’t mean you win. HAPPY BIRTHDAY.
It sounds stupid but I’m not really even sure. I’ll get hit by a couple EX legs at random and the next thing I know I’m dead or stunned. I think the problem is she has the ability to stop my momentum and EX legs is like the ultimate “fuck yo mix-up nyggha!” move. After a poke string or FADC cancel it gets spammed and eat it all.
I can never catch her or pin her down. The whole matchup is just blah.
Sorry about that.
Well… we’re gonna need a little more than that to really be of any assistance.
Try to figure out what’s going on. That’ll help you out, first and foremost. Then, we can try to work through whatever you can’t figure out.
Most of the times the problem is you need to up your blocking skillz.(at least from my own exp against chun)
Building meter is important against chun(spam lp fallingsky ftw). So you can get that ex CoD to get in or even ex TT to grab her sweep or summin. I dont really get hit by “random” ex legs that much, mostly i get hit because i failed to block low and she combos whatever low attacks into ex legs.
Thats great chun info and awesome you got MagMan to comment. Can we look specifically at punishes for chun li’s moves and frame advantages. Notable moves are all strenght hazanshou’s, sweep, F/D RH (overhead crossup), EX SBK vs say F-MK or normals on recovery.
All of the points made about the fight are very true for me. I can be patient all day and tech throws and block shenanigans… the problem becomes I don’t know WHAT moves to look for that are unsafe. I end up always having to blow meter to EX CoD into her, and then deal with her wake/backdash bs because she never had to burn meter before that moment.
keep it up Hav. :tup:
Well, I’m still new to Abel. I’m on week 2. So any Honda info would be really useful. You could note that the Honda info you have isn’t for high-level players.
Anyway, I get beat by Sumo Splash. Don’t know how the hell to punish that with Abel. He beats me with that command grab of his on wake up, that shit was annoying after eating it 3 times in a row.
When reading the stickies and other threads I’ve noticed that a lot of Abel players have difficulties handling pressure, myself included. Since Abel doesn’t have any real “get-the-f-off-me”-moves like other characters, the only decent moves used to create a breather, requires meter (EX TT or EX Marseilles Roll). So if you’re facing a good Ken that starts on the offensive, it’s hard to turn the round in your favor. Now, just to be clear: I’m not talking about jab-spamming, but a player that knows what he’s doing (mixing in footsies and projectiles etc in a controlled manner). Of course, the pressure play of each character is different, so in the end, it’s really matchup-specific but it’s really something I’d like to know.
I’m actually writing this after playing a few matches against a Ken that got me good because of how he never let up. I panicked large portions of the matches and left in shame, not being abel to show my stuff 
OK… we can do a little of that. I’d honestly rather not have to focus on stuff like frame advantages, because all of that info is readily available. If you want to know how to punish something, just look up the data.
I’ll do it for now though.
As for Hazanshu’s, they’re safe.
[LIST]
[]Short= -1
[]Forward= Even
[]Roundhouse= -1
[]EX= -1
[/LIST]
You get nothing for blocking them. Sweep leaves Chun at -5, so essentially, you get nothing on that either. If, for some reason, the Chun is dumb enough to sweep at point blank range, I suppose you may get Jab TT (can’t test right now, don’t have the game), but no Chun is gonna do that (and if they do, you should be able to rape them anyway).
Overhead cross-up thing is listed as +2, but that has to vary based on where it hits. In any event, I’m sure you don’t get a punish anywhere.
EX SBK is -18. I don’t know how many of those last frames are on the ground, but there’s definitely enough to punish with low strong-> whatever. If you anticipate it, you can even get neutral jump RH-> ground combo with good timing.
What all this means though, is that Chun is pretty safe. You’re not gonna beat her by trying to punish her moves. That’s not the angle to play. You’re going to have to go in and hurt her. She zones you out really well, but her reversal options are pretty bad. If you can manage to punish EX SBK hard enough, you can take it out of the fight for a while, and you’ll only have to worry about backdashing, really. I’ve already discussed ways to punish that.
You have to be the aggressor, but you can’t be dumb about it. Sitting back and chilling, waiting for Chun to hand you an opening, really isn’t gonna work though.
I figured I would piggy back on this post as Rose is the character I probably have played the most besides Abel.
Long Range:
Rose’s fireballs are pretty bad. Startup gets obnoxiously long as you go up in strength, so much so that no Rose will ever really use MP/HP fireballs. This means you will be dealing with a lot of slow fireballs coming at you. Do not become predictable with how you get by them. Mix up focus dashing, jumping (forward and neutral) and rolls. Most Rose players aren’t in love with her Soul Throw, but if they see you doing a lot of open empty jumps they will dash forward and throw you out of it.
Her Cr.HP is ridiculously good anti air. It will beat everything you have, see if they use it on you religiously. Most good Rose’s take the cr.hp option over the inconsistent Soul Throw. Figure out which one you are playing. Also, be aware of the CR.HP XX Soul Spiral as AA. It will reset you and set her up for a throw. Block the first one she does and be ready to tech the throw, I would say its more common to throw than start a cr.lp hit confirm combo.
Medium Range:
Be aware of her pokes, as they are quite good. Cr.MP is incredibly good, and will stuff a lot of things. So is her F-HK, and standing HK, but bother have a long recovery time. You may be able to squeak an LK Wheel kick in there, or F-MK depending on range.
Her Slide does NOT combo into anything unless its very meaty. If she slides on you (hit or block) I would go for a TT. Chances are she will try to throw. She may backdash out or EX spiral you, but if she is starved for meter then she will want to keep that EX drill as its the only invulnerable wakeup option.
Spiral is VERY unsafe it not spaced well, and always leaves her at a disadvantage with frames. 5 ish frames average. It should only be used in combos really, and sometimes as a wakeup option. Everytime you block it you should at the very least be getting LP TT.
Fireball at midrange is stupid for her. Jump it and beat her down.
Close:
This is where she does not want to be. Her normals are decent pokes, but none give decent frame advantage, and most are negative. expect a lot of Cr.MP’s and jabs until she can backdash out. If you get predictable jumping in after the backdash expect a good rose to start soul throwing you.
there are two BnB’s combos to worry about, both can lead to super
3x cr.lp xx Spiral xx super
cr.lp cr.lk -> cr.mp xx spiral xx super
flashier roses will do cr.mp xx LP spark FADC cr.mp xx spiral. Damage is alright, but I prefer to save the meter in most cases.
Rose has NO overhead. D/B if you must.
Ultra:
Her ultra is very lack luster. Its decent anti air if done early enough against empty jumps, a little later against jump ins. It will catch out your wheel kicks if you toss them around recklessly, or if you are dumb and do follow up CoD’s on block. Its only combo-able off a crumple or with 3 EX bars and in the corner, so that’s not really an issue.
The key is make her throw a bad spark, or try to slide/throw. Once you know which moves aren’t safe, there are not a lot of options for her at all. You are looking to score a knock asap. Cross her up on wakeup, she will either have to dash out, block it, or burn meter like a whiffing an EX drill the wrong way. I’m pretty sure you can FP CoD the recovery of that drill, but don’t quote me on that. Its certainly doesn’t move her far enough to escape the pressure.
Observe if there are dashes, blocks, or jumps on your wakeup pressure and adjust how you react.
I find myself and other Rose players conditioned to throw often because of lack of other good options. Translation, if you roll into her… good chance she will go for throw
Okay, I’m really not good at explaining match-up. I play chun, well a very defensive chun. I tend to lose more when i play defensive when i shouldn’t in this match, and to rush down abels. this match in my opinion is 5-5 but leaning towards chun though. Abel st. short normally stops me from dashing in, that move is useful in mid-range. when i corner abel, i don’t think he has a lot options to get out of the corner, the only thing that scares me there is the tornado throw, but that’s very bait-able. Chun in the corner isn’t too good also. ex SBK isn’t that good. I think magnetomaniac pretty much covered everything about this match-up and i need to play this match a little bit more.
My advice for the abel players is. Rush chun li when you get the chance to. don’t be afraid of her. lol.
the only thing i can say about Honda is You can punish a blocked Headbutt with mp COD and TT beats his command throw.
Only fp headbutts can be punished with mp CoD or ultra’d on block but they have to be reversal timing.
thats not true, it depends on the spacing of the blocked headbutt. if they do MP headbutt from too close you can punishing with CoD and ultras as well. I think LP is pretty safe overall though.
^^^
Not accurate. It has nothing to do with how close Honda is when he does the move.
Strong Headbutt = -13
Fierce Headbutt = -16
^ i was told (not exactly sure) but if you have quick reactions, you can react to hazanshu with a lvl 2 focus.