This Feels Different... OLD Abel Match Theory Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
361

Personally, I don’t see it as that great of a tactic… it just loses to way too many options… sure it’ll catch some backdashes and of course jump ups/outs… but even someone who’s crouch blocking can punish the whiff on reaction

Against the zoner type Guiles, I just walk forward… s.lk beats out a lot of his pokes, so you can use that to just bully him into the corner. Once he gets scared and tries to work his way out with sonic booms and follow up pokes is when you can get your knock down… One EX cod, throw, sweep, AA cr.hp etc and he’s on the floor… then like HAV says, cross up all day long.

362

Man, Guile is free for Abel if u know what u are doing. All you need is ONE knockdown, and if the guile is throwing a lot of random pokes and st.hp just ex cod that or something, you can take a lot of risks in this matchup since he has no way of punishing you badly. After that knockdown its pretty much ggpo.

363

ever thought it’s the players you play against being free? you live in utah buddy, your opinion holds no weight.

364

you’ve obviosuly never played Dustin(Warhak) that foo is a beast. white daigo where you at?

365

LOL, who the fuck are you again? We have some pretty good players over here, I’ll bet money saying your ass wouldn’t even get past first round in a UT tournament. Pretty bad for a troll :nono:

And we have a good guile over here who got pretty far in EVO, so im pretty sure its the matchup and not the player.

Seriously though, how is Guile supposed to beat Abel? He can’t really zone you out, just patiently walk forward and block his sonicbooms, eventually he’s going to be cornered. After that you have SOOOO many options to knock him down its rediculous.

366

Nice advice.

Too bad your are banned :confused:

367

Why are you guys even responding to such obvious trolls?

368

This thread needs honda matchup info.

I feel like the best tools in this match are ex cod and mk/ex roll in anticipation of reversals. It’s very hard to play footsies here, honda’s pokes (stand fierce roundhouse) have great range and damage but can be focus dash tt’d. The problem here is that a good honda will mix these with jab hhs and you do not want to be hit by that. mixups are difficult here cuz honda has good reversal game, esp with meter. Baiting out a sumo slam with roll leads into free combo, (try and forward kick from max range for bnb) or ultra. Crossup on wake up is not safe as ex headbutt can auto-correct. forward kick - Fp only works from max range. I know blocked hp/mp headbutt can be ultra’d and any normal headbutt can be ultra’d (jab would have to be psychic, practically).
TT beats ochio obviously so you can look for obvious ochio setups i suppose. even better, i know a back-dashed ochio can be ultra’d. Any tips on this matchup from abel players with a lot of exp vs high level honda’s would be appreciated.

369

Iunno. Maybe it’s just me. It’s not like he has the advantage over me every single time, it’s just that I’m not seeing this as easy 1-2-3 stuff. His corner game > my corner game. He doesn’t zone/turtle, he plays very aggressive.

We’re trying to figure out how to get our videos on Youtube so perhaps you can see what I’m having a hard time with. The video format is weird so we’re trying… Then again, I think they’re really just simple mistakes that turn into bad ass damage for him. I can block his string fairly consistent, I just get punished bad and FA too much. I feel like I don’t take as much advantage when I do knock him down.

In regards to Honda matchup, I feel that there’s so much baiting going on. Eating HHS is so badddd. It’s like, neither character can’t get in unless you try to bait something.

370

Wheel Kick was a move I used to spam recklessly starting out… then I stopped using it altogether for awhile… and now after playing guys with good footsies, I’ve started using it again. Properly spaced short wheel kicks against Honda are awesome because they will punish his standing far roundhouse and his jab but you have to be careful because headbutt smokes it. The key is proper spacing and timing… as soon as he budges from down-back, you go for it. Honda’s move speed is pretty fast though so care must be taken so you don’t hit early with the wheel kick… then you will get oichio thrown and that sucks.

I’ve played a lot of Hondas that spam neutral jump fierce to keep you out and from the ground it is tough to get around. Abel has two good tools to get around that, c.fp and c.mk. Wheel kick will basically never work against those enormous hands. This is actually one of the things I don’t punish until later in the match… lure him into a false sense of security, then drop the elbow on him. Otherwise, if you hit his hands it is tough to follow up with a dash FS or canceled roll FS so I’ll do a EX wheel kick to get some good damage off the launch.

Guile… this is a fight that is basically over once you knock him down because his reversal is terrible. Getting in is tough… you can never jump over a sonic boom, unless he threw out a EX sonic boom which recovers a lot slower. Rolling is also very unsafe. You just have to walk in carefully. If he rushes you down, zone with standing strong, standing short and the like.

I usually start my pressure strings with a c.lk but Guile’s f/b+mk will go clean over your short and hit you, so there ends any pressure. These moves are pretty fast too so it is feasible for him to mash it out after a blocked jump in. So to get around this, I use c.jab instead. Your high/low mixup is a lot weaker this way but Guile’s options for getting out of step kick and throws are quite bad so this isn’t a deal breaker.

Otherwise his offensive game is just like Bison & Vega’s… he has a lot of frame advantage on blocked moves, fast move speed, solid tick throw game. Tech standing up in this one to make it easier to stop his throws… once you have done that, shit gets easy. His target combo into his overhead doesn’t make a block string so you can punish with EX TT if you are expecting it… his overhead is otherwise slow and weak, nothing to be worried about.

371

[media=youtube]IWBDJfz_B2E] one and [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSu3a6Y9oOg[/media]

cool tip : get someone who is OG with the character and has gone far in ST, not some noober 09 guile in your scene…ESPECIALLY IF HE IS FROM UTAH LOLOLOL

i went to evo, and made it out of pools in winners :sad: go figure buddy, your boy is nothing special

372

Those videos kinda show my problem. I don’t wanna jump cause I feel I’ll get air grabbed and it’s very difficult to time rolls against sonic booms and stuff. It seems like it’s all about timing if you wanna break that wall. And properly using your EX bar (vid 2, he kinda wasted it at times with the wheel kick).

I don’t think the matchup is THAT easy as you guys say it is, or is it just my inexperience?

373

It’s you.

If you play the match like GEXP did, and have zero patience, and just keep running into the same shit… yeah… it can be pretty hard. You have to understand what’s there, and what isn’t. Just because you can jump/roll everyone else’s projectiles doesn’t mean you can do it to Guile. You just can’t. You’ve gotta be a lot more patient than that. Wait for Guile to back himself into a really shitty spot, then pounce.

The match only devolves into one of brute aggression, once you’ve finessed Guile into a spot where that will work. If you start off just trying to force your way in, Guile will win every time.

374

In other words, be gentle with her.

Seriously this match is horrible for him. Just knock him down once and crossup, then mixup between crossing up again, normal throws, tornado throws, F+MK chains, and blocking (after a few pokes if he has down charge again).

If knocking him down is the hard part, then you need to work on your approach and play more patiently.

375

I have a few questions about specific matchups -

Viper: I’ve heard and read that rolling often is very good against Viper. Can anyone elaborate? The only use I’ve found that is particularly good against her is doing reversal rolls when she jumps in to avoid a crossup BK… For the rest, she seems too quick for me to punish most of her stuff.

Boxer: Against very, VERY aggressive boxers (I play a few of those) it’s incredibly difficult to get a hit in. I can’t AA their jump-ins, their jabs are so freaky quick that I can’t apply f.mk pressure, and footsies are very rough due to his normals having quite a lot of range… Aside from what I’ve read earlier in the thread (ex TT against wakeup dashes, which never happen anyway because they are expecting it) what is there to do?

Ryu: In my experience, there are 2 types of Ryus. One that is very defensive, throws a lot of hadokens from full screen and just get away from you. These aren’t that hard since I can focus and absorb a lot of hadokens and completely shut down their fireball game when I have Ultra, in which case it forces them to attack to get a hit in and I can handle.

The other type, however, is incredibly aggressive. We have a local Ryu player who’s very aggressive with Ryu (he’s always played him this way) and it seems the priority he has is insane. That player is an old-school player who did a LOT of CvS2 and his footsies are pretty good so he get in pretty easily. What can we do as Abel in that situation?

Gief is another problem, but I’ve been studying videos of high-end japanese players playing against Gief and the gist of it seems to control spacing with s.MP and s.LK to force him to make mistakes. Punish jump-ins with jf.FP early so make him stop jumping (you gotta learn to look for jumps but it’s possible on reaction). I’ve played one of the very best giefs in North America recently (Temujin on here - Arturo apparently called him the best gief in the continent, heh) and I was able to hold my own using that, but it’s clear that gief can outpoke Abel, so good footsies are incredibly important.

I know about the classic things (ex TT on blocked lariats, although if the Gief knows it’s coming he can avoid it!, ultra on 2nd blocked lariat hit, s.MP hits lariat clean from far enough, etc) but it seems to me that if gief plays very safe it’s incredibly difficult to get in. His mixups are deadly against Abel if he knocks you down since you have no possible exit (c.lk stuff jump back attempts, and if you start to block them you get tick kick spd setups) so I don’t quite know what to do in this situation.

Also, do some of you guys have tips for improving footsies? We have another local Abel who’s overall better than I am and he gave me some tips (like poking with s.FK after a few s.LK, since it has a bit further reach) but I’m not quite at the level I’d like to be yet.

376

if boxers are just spamming their jabs after your f mk then you don’t have many options against them, but two good options are f mk > dash > normal throw or ex TT.

keep in mind that boxer does not have cross-up, and if boxer is doing jump-in > c. jabs > normal throw so many times, then you can try normal TT every single time after each jab. of course, they can punish you by n jump, but it makes them not spamming normal throw. if you’re having trouble with AA, just try c MK, if you’re still have problem, just rolling to get out…

if boxer jump-ins when you’re down, you could escape by rolling, it depends on timing. if boxer do jump-ins in right timing, your reversal rolling can’t even make it out, try ex TT instread.

if boxers know abel they won’t spam mid-high range dash punches since abel pokes them by basic moves and ex TT. in this range if they just crouching and wait in the corner, you can build up your ex meter by sky fall,

when you make them down, close standing HK is really a good. if you get right timing, it punish all boxer’s move except turn punch and ex moves. that’s I’ve learned from this forum (thanks whoever posted and shared info :slight_smile: )

finally, you should know the exact range of boxer’s c HK/ and lp dash straight, these are ones that you may have trouble a lot, and if you have good reaction, you can punish those by f mk if they miss you.
don’t use standing lk too much, if you’re in that range which means you’re also in boxer’s c. HK.

hope this helps, :slight_smile:

377

Had a few rounds against a decent claw(lol) just now and I realized that you have to ultra hella early after a cr.hp against him. Anyone can support this?

(I know claw aint a threat much against abel, but hey, data is data plus a good claw can still be a pain in the ass)

378

I don’t really find this to be the case. Is there not one universal time that you can do the ultra after cr.hp and it will always hit no matter who you are doing it on?

379

I have to disagree regarding the universal timing for ultra, against some chars you can afford to ultra later(Gief, Sagat, Guile lol) and for some char you have to do earlier. Possible factors: hitbox and maybe the speed they fall down

any other opinions?

380

i hate ultra’ing Honda the most out of any char, but i kind of feel a general timing that applies to all chars, and a bigger window on bigger chars