Because GvG and VO actually still have limited camera angles. The camera and movement in those games is still generally relative to your opponent. Bayonetta or DMC on the other hand, don’t have that kind of system.
So obviously a company making a game in that vein would use a camera like GvG or VO, obviously they’re not gonna literally take DMC or Bayo and just slap multiplayer on it if they were gonna do a game like that. Least I’d hope not.
Still, you have to take note that GvG and VO are primarily long distance games. It’s harder to implement the in depth close in game of Tekken or Soul Calibur on games like those simply because you have less visual data pertaining to the ranges of your attacks.
Games TM the UK magazine talks about the future of fighting games, I took the liberty and scanned the the feature for anyone to see. Be aware Ono’s trolling like always. Enjoy
Games TM Fight For The Future:
“SUPER SMASH BROS. IS MORE FOR BEGINNERS OR THE GENERAL PUBLIC”
“JAPANESE FIGHTING GAMES ARE BASED ON SOLID RULES, NOT THE CHAOS OF POSSIBILITIES”
“THE FIGHTING GAME GENRE IS ESTABLISHED SO FIRMLY THAT IT’S DIFFICULT TO CHANGE”
“IF YOU KNOW WHO YOSHINORI ONO IS, YOU’RE A HARDCORE GAME FAN. OTHERWISE YOU’RE A CASUAL” LOL!
Very interesting article.
Should be on the front page.
Plenty of Rumble Fighter players are gonna call bullshit on that one.
But isn’t that played from a traditional 2D beat 'em up point of view, not from one that swings around all over the place (and/or is mostly over the shoulder.)?
Oh good, now maybe ‘they’ can go bother the Tekken boards instead of us.
Some very good/strong reasoning from the community. I appreciate everyone’s input.
You know, one of the things I’ve learned in my 28 years of being alive is that each mind is a world unto itself. In the context of opinion, no one has to “accept” another’s way of thinking. Even if someone were to present all the logic in the world to this other person, they have the choice not to make it true in their mind. Sure they can be wrong, but only to you and those that think like you. This goes for just about any theme really, including the classification of games into specific genres.
This thing where you divide people into arbitrary groups and feel the need to speak for everyone on Shoryuken.com? Stop that.
Clearly you’re from the half of Shoryuken.com that doesn’t like dividing people into arbitrary groups.
But didn’t you get the memo? Smash isn’t a fighting game because it isn’t SF2 with Nintendo characters! How to make a successful fighting game:
-Copy SF2/Tekken if your game is gonna be 3d(make sure every stage is a flat floor in a small/medium sized room, if the game is 3d only wall interactions are allowed, unless Tekken does something else, then it’s ok to do it but only after they do it first)
-Tweak the comboing system(longer combos are popular now so make them long)
-Add a comeback mechanic, the more busted the better(don’t worry about the pros, they’ll whine but buy the game anyway)
-Make sure to have dlc on the disk, people will whine but you can resell the game later with some prefix in front
-Make sure that instead of actually simplifying controls(because that makes pros angry), you simply keep the same controls but add shortcuts that actually make it harder to do the inputs for moves, this way pros will whine but not nearly as much as if you changed the inputs period
-If anyone disagrees with the way your game is designed, just bring up what some “high level player” said, most people will give in to peer pressure and be too afraid to argue
Best. Fighting. Game. Ever.
Oh and I’m gonna respond to what was said about the inputs since I waited for a while to think it over:
The thing with these inputs, is that fighters are literally the ONLY genre where this is still accepted and encouraged. Things like bunny hopping, or more advanced control of units in rts are not even remotely the same as this. Those things are generally advanced features, not basic things. Special moves are not advanced features in gameplay, the things you can do with such moves such as cancels, juggles, traps, and the like are what are advanced techniques. The only way such a comparison would even be accurate would be if to fire a rocket you had to do a qcf motion and right click, or to build a structure you had to do a charge back, then forward, then hit f2 for the unit to start building. It honestly is not the same thing, as fighters are the only genre people complain about the inputs like this. Starcraft initially had a hurdle of input in the form of a nonoptimized ui which made things harder than they had to be, they later fixed this in SC2. They didn’t leave that in and say “well ya know SC had it, and SC was a deep game, and well if you wanna be good you better just practice and get used to the limitations of the ui, as it balances things in the game and adds tension; after all you could fuck something up during a strategy thanks to the ui!” If they had left that in people would have bitched, in fighters people bitch but it gets ignored and drowned out by the people who played fighters since SF2 and decided that fighters just have to do things the way Sf2 did or they aren’t legit somehow.
Balancing of moves gets brought up, the thing is if you’re going to change how inputs work, obviously you’re going to have to change other things as well. For instance, command moves. MK was brought up, with the issue being that those games don’t have command moves because inputs can overlap. Which is silly. I’ve played MK Mugen characters that kept MK style inputs yet had command moves added as well. Obviously a good programmer would make it so the game can detect the difference between back forward punch, and simply forward punch. If a person can do that in Mugen, I’m sure a professional company can as well.
As for different levels of special moves(ie. fireballs with different speeds, moves with different properties), yes that would be an issue, at least with 2d fighters. 3d not really. For 2d the best I can think up on the fly would be for instance, if a Hadoken is changed to forward forward punch(this way forward punch can be a command move depending on the character), you could simply tap whatever punch you want to get the desired fireball, no different than you currently do. Obviously SF is a game that should probably simply stay as is, as it was designed to be a certain way and play a certain way, so changing all that can seriously screw things up. However this kind of input scheme can work for a new fighter designed around that.
As far as the issue of skill comes up, in all honesty, if the only thing keeping a person from beating you is the ability/inability to do a move, then that doesn’t really say much about skill. Call me crazy, but I’d side with Sirlin in this case, fighters can be all about mental games, and not about “how much you practiced doing this input tl it was committed to memory”. Myself, I learned how to do these inputs, and I don’t think “Oh god they’re so hard” and throw a fit. I can understand however that there are some people who simply have trouble learning that stuff, even despite being mentally good at the game and knowing what they should do in different situations. It’s better to have simpler inputs instead and make the game purely about who has the greater skill in strategy and the ability to read their opponent and knowing when to use or not use a move. A lot of this “the inputs must be this way” stuff sounds a LOT like “I had to spend all day learning this shit and I’ll be damned if some new person is gonna get it easier than I did!” Every argument that can be made for why these inputs are supposed to be this way, there is a solid argument for why it isn’t necessary.
As for balancing of moves, obviously if they are going to change how a move’s input works, depending on the nature of said move, the devs will have to change other aspects as well. Making Guile’s sonic boom a simpler input and simply making it so you can’t run forward tossing them off isn’t rocket science for a seasoned game programmer. Gief’s SPD’s damage can stay, in all honesty very few pros fuck up that move to begin with so a simpler input won’t even affect them; and frankly if a “noob” manages to get in that close each time and keeps nailing you with an SPD, maybe you’re just bad at the game. A “noob” being able to do the move easier and landing it if you let them get too close is no different from me having committed that shit to memory and and being able to do it near flawlessly; if you let either of us get that close it is YOUR fault, not the fault of simpler inputs. Frankly regardless how simple an input is, there is ALWAYS room for error anyway, SPD could be forward + special move button and someone can still have their finger slip and fuck it up while under pressure, just as a pro player can have that stuff committed to memory and still slip up and get the move wrong under pressure.
All I can say is this, if anyone says having simpler inputs is a bad thing, then they should also be perfectly fine with fighters having one frame links and never complain about it, since it’s easy to simply say that the game is just rewarding those who practice their links all the time til they are committed to memory. It’s just rewarding people who practice harder and are more dedicated. Yet links get so much hate, gee I wonder why…
Look at this as an example, Twisted Metal is a game of skillful combat, David Jaffe many times has called it a fighting game with cars and compares it to SF, using it as an inspiration. TM games were known for special moves done via directional inputs, like left right left right up fire and such. The new TM for PS3 is having more simplified inputs, where you simply tap left, right, up, or down on the dpad for the specials to come out. They did that to aid newer players to get into the game, and frankly because it just made more sense to optimize the way the inputs worked instead of sticking with a system simply because the old games did it. The game will still take skill, if anything the new game looks to be more complex than the old ones with many more options available, yet it has simplified inputs. Simplified inputs do not equal a dumbed down or shallow game, that is the fault of poor game developers who can’t think outside the box.
I tried reading half of this shit on tapatalk but I give up.
Edit:
Sums it up.
Outfoxies is much better and with more imagination than Smash bros anyway.
Also there is a kung fu 3d simulation game for the pc with real rules. Havent tried this yet.
I do not see any real big change
Except maybe if motion sensors become popular and we play fighters with our arms, head and feet instead of pressing buttons.
If anyone played the game Mazan, something like this but less linear.
Maybe Nintendo might come up with something.
its nice to see that you still dont understand how fighting games works, keep the ignorance bro :tup:
and combos are not the only thing happening on this games , but im sure that you wouldnt belive me
the fact that you are still comparing fighting games to other genres that dont have nothing in common is just hillarious
not only that, oyu are dissmising the technical aspects of the games ignoring that rts, sport games racing games etc still have their own share of dificulties that people needs to learn to be able to stand against other players
not everyone knows how to drift properly to say one example, not everyone is able to optimize their units on the rts games like the pro players, not everyone is able to use all the options that sport games like pro evolution soccer has to offer, even your beloved smash (meele at least) has it share of “nuisance” that you need to learn if you want to play it "correctly"
in all this games you can always notice who has put their time into learning the game and who is has a little knowledge of the game, if you really find input moves that challenging then fighting games are not for you (this is in a general way of speakin, not you necesarily)
is as i said, people only want instant gratification, dont want to put their time into learning a game, but they still want to be able to compete in equal ground against people who it has done it
LMAO
Ok here’s an example and maybe you can see what I mean. In MvC3, Dante’s rekka specials were done classic style qcf attack button, qcf attack button. Like Fei Long’s rekkas in SF or Kyo’s rekkas in KoF for instance. Now in UMvC3, this will be changed to qcf attack button, attack button. Now obviously this input was simplified, an entire motion is axed right out of the input now. The questions here are:
-Why change this input for his moves? Most people who are fighting game players with some experience can do rekka inputs(I know I can, you NEED to to play post 95 Kyo effectively in KoF, same for Fei Long, Freeman, and other such characters with this style of attack) and relatively they’re not even all that hard to do really. So why even change that at all? Wouldn’t the risk/reward be higher for the classic style of rekka input, since there is still more room for error, as opposed to simply doing one qcf motion and tapping attack for each hit now? Did Capcom feel it was necessary to simplify this, and why?
-Does changing this have a negative impact on the character/gameplay in general? Since the moves are easier to do, does this mean no practice is needed to play well as Dante? Could someone theoretically start the game, pick up Dante, and beat a more skilled person now that the margin for error in his specials has been lowered? If I were a skilled Dante user and lost to a new person playing him, simply because they don’t mess up much now that the move is easier, does that say the character is designed poorly, or am I a poor player for losing like that?
That’s sort of the issue here. In a game like SF I honestly don’t think changing up all the inputs is a good idea, the game is established to be a certain way and you’d probably have to change too much to fix what could get broken if you start changing up inputs like that, same goes for KoF for instance. But does that mean a new franchise can’t or shouldn’t do that differently?
I tend to play Devil’s Advocate with this issue, my personal opinion is frankly qcf motions honestly aren’t even hard after ya learn to do them and they don’t take that long to learn. The only truly hard inputs imo tend to be things along the lines of 360s/720s, pretzel motions, any motion that seems normal but ends in the upward parts of the dpad(ie. 2369) and on some occasions those qcf back/forward half circle forward/back motions found in some SNK fighters. The thing is do simpler inputs dumb down or otherwise impact fighters negatively, is there a limit to how simplified a move can get before it’s bad? If a move is simplified and anyone can pick up the game and do said move, if I lose to that person is it due to bad game design, or bad gameplay on my part? I noticed fighters tend to be the one genre where this stuff with inputs tends to really bug people, a person can suck at action games, suck at racing games, suck at shooters, suck at platformers and puzzle games, suck at rpgs, suck at rtses and not seem to complain much about inputs, fighters tend to be the only genre where the issue of inputs simply being too hard or annoying comes up over and over again(to the point where even Capcom must have wondered if it was a legit issue to some degree, hence them seeming to take some sort of steps in simplifying some aspects of this), which in the very least makes me wonder if there is at least something to it beyond “whining scrubs”.
As far as advanced mechanics go, my honest opinion is those should NOT be simplified. For instance, in MvC2, doing ROM was a pretty big deal and took a lot of practice. A complaint mentioned for MvC3 was that doing this became a LOT easier, to where new people were picking this technique up pretty damn fast, perhaps too fast. This is something that I do feel detracts from a game. Do I think all tactics need to be ultra hard to do, no; but I do think more advanced techs are things that should require more effort and more practice, hence the point of them being more advanced. In this case to compare to other games: Shooting a rocket is like doing a fireball, bunnyhopping is like doing a ROM; the fireball technically should be very simple for any player to do as it’s a basic attack you will need to play as a character, something like ROM is NOT a basic tactic and is something the player should take time if they want to learn how to do it and use properly. If someone wants to be able to toss a fireball with ease and use it anyway they wish even if it’s stupidly, fine on them, but something like ROM for instance should not be something someone can just jump into a game and start doing right off the bat.
DMC is the same way and a great example, all the attacks are very simple to do, the complex part comes from all the things you can do with said moves. Not everyone can play like Brea, anyone can pick up the game and do Stinger but not everyone can do jump cancels. If DMC were multiplayer in this instance, the failure aspect wouldn’t come from not being able to do Stinger or High Roller, it would be from the fact a new player can’t jump cancel or do any of the advanced techniques needed to be a true threat to a good player, and thus if they want to go the extra mile, then they practice and learn those techniques. No different from say anyone being able to build things and send a basic raid in SC2, the good players however are the ones who take the time to learn the advanced techniques, and frankly doing basic things easily won’t save you from an advanced player, you’d get destroyed in that matchup, which is how it should be.
That’s the question though, in the case of MvC3, does Dante’s rekkas being simplified mean the character is dumbed down and easier to win with, or do advanced tactics still win at the end of the day? If the latter is the case, does simplifying inputs really negatively impact fighters?
What is with this “fighting games shouldn’t require execution” business? If you want to play a game that requires minimal or no execution, there are about a million of them. Go play one.
the thing that you are not understanding of my point is that im not against simplifying inputs, on the contrary, as i said i truly believe that there is no need to make some inputs like the pretzel for example
its about the necesity of having a balance on the risk reward and the ideology behind the design of the moves
as i said in my previous posts moves like Zanguief’s SPD have the 360/720 move asigned as part of how the designers want you to play with the char, and when they want you to have access of said move
if you are going to simplify the input, then you would need to change the propierties of said special, tager for example, the grappler of BlazBlue (wich is a game btw that its doing a combination of traditional inputs and more simple ones that are only based on the direction of the stick and the Drive button) has 2 360 moves and one 720, its 360A has invulnerability in the startup of the move the same for the 720, also its 720 deals 5620 of damage on a game where the cast health goes from 8500 to 13000 iirc, since the move is a 720 you need to buffer it and mask it behind other moves making it seem that you made a mistake or forcing the oponent to make a mistake if you want to land it, making it the less obvious possible since all the players know that when tager has metter he wants to land that shit if he has the oportunity, btw is not only a grab that deals massive soviet damage its also pulls you in if you are magnetized, but still the move is still balanced and “fair” since you are not able to do it in any situation, imagine if this move were simply 6 A+B (as you sugested it wouldnt matter :looney:), it would be broken as fuck
so since the moves are 360/720, and you have to mask it behind your other normals/moves/actions to buffer them, here is where the real mind games begin and the gameplay desing becomes evident, now they need to be on their toes since your gameplan is around making them belive that you want (or you really want) to land the move, so if they jump to be safe because they expected that you would do your 360/720 you can do your anti air grab to fuck them if you went for that specific scenario, now do you see how the fact that the move is a 360/720 helps to define the strategy and gameplan of the character?
in fact yes, there is a limit on how much you can simplify the inputs without hurting the gameplay and the balance of risk reward, is one of the thing tht i have repeated on all my posts.
one important part of the fighting games is knowing when to use a move based on its strenghts and weaknes and part of that its the input, the core of the strategy and mind games is that you need to know when is the best time to do a move, and part of that is about the inherent strengths and weakness of your specials and supers, the propierties are not the only thing that you ponder, but also the inputs of the moves, not every move is meant to be used as reversal and on reaction, not every move is meant to be used freely, the inputs serve also as limiters on how and when you can use the moves, that is also part of the strategy and mind games
even when you dont belive it, if you over do it with how simple are the moves to be done you can end wuith a character that doesnt need to much if any mind games and strategy to be played efectively as wich some say pure auto pilot, why do you think that at the begining of mvc3 life span many people whined about sentinel? (and still many people whine about it)
puting aside all of his weakness that are evident at high-mid to high level play, at beginer to mid level play sentinel is just a “noob/scrub” killer, for them the amount of damage that deals and the accesibility of his moves and how easy are them to do and how big its the reward not to mention how “auto pilot” it he, hell i have hear a lot of people complaining about sentinel’s spit being a one button beam
for them sentinel is just a flagrant flaw on balance.
why the people complained on vanilla of zanguief’s lariat as being to op as an anti air move specially for a move that its only 3P or 3K?
plus there is also why you have more than one character to select to begin with
you have your different flavors of chars that vary from dificulty of use and dificulty to master
there are the ones that dont require to much effort on the input departament to be used efectively, and there are the ones that are more dificult to use but at the same time (in theory) the reward of learning them is bigger
i cant really belive that you really think that a 6 Sp button would be the same as the 360 for the SPD, seriously
also yes you can do some programing to make unable to do booms while walking, but you are making a completly different move there, booms and for the matter any charge moves on SF are done with the idea that you need to give up on your movement if you want to use them outside of combos, they are tools that you need to stay in one place for a time to do them, changing that defeats the whole idea of the character desing (gameplay wise) and how its tools work
for me your major problem, is the totally lack of understanding on how the diferent archetypes work and why are they designed the way they are
Easier special moves is fine but only when you really know how to design them well or else you’ll end up making the game actually harder, or just ruin it.
For example you gave a suggestion of taking classic MK motion of ff+button, bf+button etc. which is actually a horrible idea as it overlaps possible movement options, and making other basic actions harder or even impossible.
For example with Robo Ky you can’t just use normals from a dash since it’s one of his specials. If you want to attack from a dash you gotta FD 1st.
Also few buttons make the game harder to play than if it had more buttons, because you’d have to resort to assigning moves to command inputs and if you play BlazBlue for example you have to get use to dashing->neutral+button which isn’t as easy as just having more buttons to use.