Those pics are Air Tatsus. Ryu’s ground Tatsu has the same hitbox as Ken. I’ve traded sometimes with Ken’s ground Tatsu while trying to cr Fierce with Guile, and I’ve stuffed Ryu sometimes too. Although Ryu’s hitting frames are longer than Ken, it’s the luck of the draw, since it’s a spinning attack.
If you’re holding forward the 15 frame window doesn’t start yet. You have 15 frames to complete the d, df motion and punch, *once *you input the d position. But you can hold f as long as you like. The only thing you can’t do is, hold f for half a sec, hold d for half a sec and then df punch. You won’t get either a Shoryuken or a Hadoken that way.
I get more Shoryukens than Hadokens while trying to walk forward, Hadoken. I think you are just pressing the punch too slow (at the f position instead of the df), and I think I am pressing the punch too fast (at the df position instead of f). We both need some more practice.
I have no idea what happens during slowdown. That might be a good question for Rufus, either in the frame data thread or the hitstun/blockstun thread.
the only thing is, i swear i get fireballs without reaching the forward position. when i walk forward and go for a fireball i can usually get it by waiting just a split second before i press punch. but the walking forward DP i can’t get consistenly. fireballs come out sometimes when they shouldnt. unless im really hitting forward by accident, but i am 99 percent sure that i am not.
Maybe you’re hitting punch in between f and df? That would still count as a f position, and would still give you a Hadoken instead of a Shoryuken. Did you have the same problem in Classic ST? You can test it with charge characters like Guile. If you do b charge and end in between f and df, you will still get a Sonic Boom. But if you end exactly in df, you won’t get a Boom. Try doing the motion faster and hitting punch faster than you normally would, and I am sure you will get a Shoryuken consistently.
A lot of Ryu and Ken players have the same problem as I do (getting Shoryuken instead of Hadoken while walking forward) because of the larger 15 frame input window, so you should have no problems getting a Shoryuken while walking forward. I try hitting punch slower than I normally would, and this helps me get a Hadoken consistently instead of Shoryuken while walking forward.:bgrin:
yea, but even when i am purposely going for a walking fireball, i will get DP’s…and sometimes i will get the fireball. it all feels random to me. i would love to know exactly whats happening in the game before i keep wasting hours trying to perfect this and getting nowhere. one would think it would be as simple as “dont press forward for a DP, and press it for a fireball”…yet i cant get one or the other consistently.
I had that same problem of getting a DP when I wanted a fireball and vice versa as I was walking towards (and with Ken, the problem is exacerbated because of the huge arc on a whiffed h. DP). Try doing the down > down-towards motion tighter. Meaning, when you’re at down, only slightly shift the stick for down-towards. It seems rather weird, but this has pretty much eliminated the problem for me.
I use the walking DP when I corner opponents. After a meaty fireball on wake up, I walk over and either throw or (when I condition them properly) lp. DP. This necessarily means that I need to input a down > down-towards motion when walking forward and I can honestly say that I’ve never had a fireball come out when I wanted a DP.
thanks. its not so strange cause doing exactly what you said with a slight d.f motion is giving me the best results, but even still…sometimes i get the FB. training mode it is!
Is Ryu’s super the same motion as Ken/Fei? I thought it was, but it seems it is much easier to pull off Ken and Fei’s than it is Ryu. On my HORI I can do them easier, but Ryu requires a different roll of the stick to accomplish. The input seems more staggered than completely circular. Is it just me??
Actually, Maj (more or less) explained it in one of his articles. When you hit, the game freezes for 14 frames, the system still takes input so it counts for charge time. I think the game considers it mid-move input. You can input a special cancel if you hit on frame 4 or earlier, or a super cancel if you hit on frame 5 or earlier (not sure about that latter number it might vary by character/whatever). I expect that block freeze is the same - I haven’t counted frames or anything.
I’d take your word for it because you’re absolutely right.
The motion for Ryu’s Shinkuu Hadouken is :qcf::qcf:+:p:…which is the same as Fei Long’s Rekka Shin Ken. Ken’s Shoryureppa, on the other hand, can be done with just :qcf::d::df:+:p:. The “official” motion is supposed to be :r::qcf::d::df:+:p:, but the abbreviated motion works just fine.
The official super motion for Ken, Sagat, and Cammy has always been d,df,f,d,df (and that’s the exact in-game motion too, not like claw’s inaccurate official zigzag motion). It’s not a double-dp or a double-qcf motion like for Ryu and Fei Long, nor is it depicted as such in any official sources.
There’s also no real difference in the difficulty of supers unless Sirlin changed it from ST (where it was tested); in fact, Fei Long’s is a little stricter. I think some characters may feel more lenient in their motions because their different playstyles cause your hand to move the stick in a slightly different manner.
I do not think Ryu is d, df, f, d, df. Imo, there is no way that is the motion to do his super. His super motion I think is def stricter than Ken’s. I thought, like you said, that the playstyle would be a factor, as you do Ken’s at different times during play, than you would Ryu and I thought that Ken’s is usually in a combo or buffering from a jumpin, whereas Ryu is done alot of the times just flat out in open space from a neutral position, but I do not think that Ryu’s super ends in anything but forward on the stick. Forward/down just doesn’t do it… from my limited experience. Sagat’s is the same as Ken’s imo, but Fei’s may be more strict. If Ryu’s is different and does end at forward I think that is a good thing as his super should be more strict, to offset its better utility in matches, but I do have alot more trouble doing it and it does piss me off lol.
I think you misread my post. I was actually talking about both input motions (as in the directions for a move) and input leniency (as in the length of time after each direction before the move won’t come out) together. These 2 factors combined (along with charge time) make a move easy or hard. Most folks who don’t know ST/HDR in-depth seem to focus on the input motion and neglect the input leniency.
Ryu/Fei’s super motion has a forward at the end so I suppose you could consider that input motion stricter than Ken/Sagat/Cammy’s super motion, which is the same without the 2nd forward.
However, when comparing Ryu and Fei’s super, Fei has a couple fewer frames after the double-qcf and when a P will be accepted compared to Ryu’s super. That makes Fei’s super just a bit stricter than Ryu’s in terms of input leniency.
Anyway, Sagat’s super is the same motion as Ken’s but just a hair more lenient; I’m not sure you can really notice the difference though.
Yeah I could be missing the show on the leniency, as I don’t really have the numbers on that, per move. It does seem to be better if I do Ryu’s slower and make sure the move does the full motion back to forward thou. When I do it faster like Ken/Gat and hell… everyone else I miss it, even if I think I am going back to forward. At this point it’s all about practice for me on this move. Honestly, I liked how the DP worked in ST with it having variable frames, unless you did it almost precisely, everytime. I think I like that theory. The better moves might have the same motion as some of the crappier moves, as you said, but they have less frames where you can activate the move at the end… meaning you have to be much more precise and with a move like the DP (which is just amazing), it really does seem fair that unless you are just right everytime you may miss it at the wrong moment. I think if that whole process was implemented on the whole SF2 system more throughly it would produce good results in the end.
I sometimes have the same problem and I promptly observed that the stick controller I use was moving when I would execute the motion. The same issue would happen when doings SRK from right to left would fail. It drives me crazy.
In the end, it is about using less strength or finding a way to fix the controller to something, or hold it tighter when playing.
ryus super ABSOLUTELY has to end in a forward motion or you will get a DP instead. at times that has saved me as my opponent would guess correctly that a super was coming, but my fuck up resulting in a fierce DP, would catch them in the air. a bit awkwardly actually, but none the less, you definitely have to end in a forward motion with the super.
as an aside, i have gotten much better at walking forward into a DP. its almost like a different move, but when hitting the d/f point, like oldschool BR said, you have to do it with very little strength so as to not accidentally hit forward. it almost feels like you are only hitting down but you are slightly clicking d/f.
Originally posted in the ST forums by oldschool_BR, with links to nohoho’s translation of 2 articles by Nekohashi. What’s funny is, these articles are at least a few years old, but I’m only hearing about these concepts now.
The NE Hadoken sounds kind of interesting, but the built-in Shoryuken sounds really good. If I understand it correctly, it’s a safe jump performed by the Ryu player, with a Shoryuken being executed extremely fast, so that if the opponent does a reversal attack, the Shoryuken will stuff or trade with it, or rarely get stuffed. But if the opponent blocks the safe jump attack, the Shoryuken will not come out, as the hitstop will mask the execution of the Shoryuken, and the Ryu player is free to continue a meaty combo. This should work when playing as Ken too.
Really great stuff. = J Many thanks to oldschool_BR, nohoho and Nekohashi.
