My pleasure. = J This technique with Ken’s Strong Shoryuken should be more potent due to the complete invincibility. Especially vs reversals that Ryu’s Shoryuken would get stuffed by (example: Hawk’s Tomahawk (DP), Claw’s Flipkick and Guile’s Super). And the Strong Shoryuken will simply pass harmlessly through most reversal Supers like Cammy’s Super, Fei’s Super, etc. This is also really helpful for DP characters like Cammy and Fei, especially vs Honda, as this would prevent a safe on block reversal Torpedo, as it would get stuffed by a Thrust Kick and Flame Kick. Buty they might trade with a reversal Sumo Splash, IDK for sure tho. However, this technique would be really helpful for Hawk, as his Tomahawk has even better priority than Sagat’s Uppercut, and can stuff reversal Shoryukens. This will help him get a guaranteed tick vs all characters except for Ken, Blanka and some Super reversals. Take note Hawk, Fei, Cammy and Sagat players. It’s just too bad that charge characters can’t do a safe jump into built-in DP. = L
Hey everyone,
Been playing HDR for about a year now and feel my RYU is progressing nicely but I’m still having troubling getting the timing down on the most critical of moves…SRK reversals. I know that pianoing is a tried and true method but I use a PS3 pad and my MP is set to L1 (LP is square and HP is triangle) and it makes it very hard to piano. So I resort to either multi tapping LP or sometimes rolling between LP&HP quickly and praying my timing is good.
I’ve noticed that I have an easier time with them when I am knocked down from a special move because the ground recovery is longer than say a knock to by a crouching RH. I am especially bad trying to execute it upon landing or getting out of tick loops. And good luck against Honda?s slaps on wake up.
Anyway, to all the pros out there is there an particular advice you can give to me about when to start inputting the SRK command and how fast or slow it needs to be done? I’ve been trying to do the move slow and precise and then start mashing punch buttons but i have less than a 25% success ratio that way. Any tips would be great.
Well, back to training mode for more frustration!
!
In all honesty, I think training mode is your best option here. Since block stun is either 11, 16, or 21 frames for any move you may come across, it’s best to learn the timing for the last frame of block stun. Same thing with knockdowns. Also, I don’t know how good your execution is on a pad, but for me, my execution is at least 10 times better with a joystick than it is on a pad. You may want to consider that, as well as your button configuration.
Bottom line, reversal timing is all about timing…and only practice can help with that.
Don’t stop. Don’t give up. Keep trying. You’ll get it right. (Bonus points to anyone who knows what I just quoted.) 
I gotta agree with FreshOJ on this jimmyjames. Practice is the only way to get good at the reversal Shoryuken timing. Even if pro players were tutoring you, there’s really not much they can tell you to help you learn the timing. The best thing is to do is have a buddy knock you down constantly, and then just practice waking up with a reversal Shoryuken. Do this for like 30 mins or an hour a day, and I guarantee your timing will improve. Same thing for block stun timing. I used to also play on the PS3 pad, so I feel your pain on the piano thing. You could try getting a Sega Saturn USB pad with 6 face buttons, or a stick and that would help for sure. The USB pad definitely helped me. Good luck either way bro. = J
You can also crank up the difficulty and keep trying to jump on CPU ryu/ken, that will let you practice wakeup reversals and reset reversals(if they knock you out of the air with a jump attack)
You are welcome, man, but it is really nohoho and Nekohashi’s merit. If it wasn’t for NH2, the vast majority of us would never have access to the Japanese stuff that he translates and finds.
The DP in the motion in it is not really hard, and it really annoyed some reversal-happy Chuns I’ve faced recently. I can guarantee that it does make a difference. The really hard part, and what I suppose that should take a lot of training to master (or I’m retarded, or both), is timing the further attacks correctly so as to get a combo when the enemy misses his reversal or blocks. Specially when he misses, as the hitstun lenght is reduced to that of a light attack, minimizing the time leniency. I got a few strong shoryukens on block due to screwing it up, and I am yet to correctly combo a player who misses his reversal, when I use the technique.
IMO, the NE hadouken does change things, but I guess it demands less focused training. I would use it in CE so as not to get fierces after meaty fireballs, but since I got hooked to ST invulnerable tatsus are a thing of the past (dearly missed) and I stopped using it. I got fierces after Chun’s SBK and it actually stuffed it, so it’s not something to use at all times, but only when the fierce is punishable.
Can someone tell me how I could use Ryu’s crouching and standing mp? They have to be the best normals that Ryu has due to the fact that the hitboxes cover his entire arm. My footsies are decent but they arent good enough to play Ryu effectively as he can be played, so any little bit helps.
According to Maj, I was actually wrong at this one. It is in fact possible, however exceedingly hard to do, as the command – QCFx2+Punch – would be need to be done withing just 7 frames, being that 6 frames are needed. And that with no frame skipping at all. Such a combo should often be obtained with the use of a programmable controller, depending on the speed setting.
According to page 8 of the YBH, the vulnerable hitbox on Ryu and Ken is around the upper part of their heads, up until the gauze at their forearms. Right beside it, one finds the big offensive hitbox. That first vulnerable frame is actually still grounded, which is why they can get thrown or eat a damaging combo on cross-up. If both shotos are close enough, the offensive and defensive hitboxes will collide, causing the said trading while still grounded.
As for when one beats the other, I remember three common situations. 1)As one shoto rises, his active hitbox may get above the other’s defensive hitbox. When the rising movement ends and he gets the (way) bigger defensive hitbox, he is immediately hit. 2) As one rises, hit defensive hitbox is relatively high in relation to the shoto which is below him. The lower part of his active hitbox can collide with the enemy defensive one, knocking him down. 3) Both shotos do a SRK, but one of them uses fierce or strong (but Ken in HDR, which is completely invulnerable during the active frames). The defensive hitbox is bigger and overlaps with the offensive one. As the other uses jab, it beats the other cleanly.
This should help: link.
Edition: added the jab SRK (third point) and Nate’s page to better illustrate the stuff.
If blitz is correct about the 6 and 8 then that means they are invincible for some frames and able to hit at the same time. Except it seems they become vulnerable after the startup.
I ask, because he said 6 and 8 invincible frames, and I question that since ken doesn’t appear to spend that much time on the ground.
His data is correct; they both have those frames (8 for Ryu and 6 for Ken) where they are grounded, attacking and invulnerable. It is just that they can not reach the jab SRK defensive hitbox, that is why I had not mentioned them. Say, in VST Ryu can have a SRK 1 frame before Ken wakes up, and any reversal he tries but jab SRK will get stuffed by those high damaging invulnerable frames. And the jab SRK will either trade or be punished, at it rises faster. If Ken does the jab SRK as late as he can, then it will trade.
Edit: just to make it clear:[list]
[]Ryu: 4 invulnerable harmless frames, grounded; followed by 4 invulnerable, high-damaging, grounded frames; followed by 1 vulnerable, lower-damaging, grounded frame; followed by the airbone part.
[]Ken: 2 invulnerable harmless frames, grounded; followed by 4 invulnerable, high-damaging, grounded frames; followed by 1 vulnerable, lower-damaging, grounded frame; followed by the airbone part.[/list]During that grounded vulnerable frame, Ken and Ryu can be crossed up for a combo, thrown with normal or special throws from the ground and special throws (izuna drop and Vega’s super) from the air, or hit by whatever attack such as projectiles. During the further frames they can be hit and thrown from the air, either normal or special throws. It quite hard to use normal throws, though, unless one of those rare situations when an attack goes to the other side right after a cross-up happens.
Is this speed 0? It just doesn’t feel like ken or ryu are grounded for that long.
Yes, that at speed 0.
Edit1:
It does. Ryu still has a slower SRK, thus he can still take advantage of it in certain situations such as the one I have mentioned. Similarly, one still has to react faster in order to use Ryu’s SRK as anti-air, in relation to Ken’s, or the enemy might land and block the attack. It may sound like it is just a couple of frames, but I maintain it is pretty noticeable for a player who tries to play Ryu but mains Ken, specially against Vega or Blanka, who jump fast.
Edit2: if you mean that you were right about thinking Ken and Ryu not staying grounded that much, yes. You were definitely correct.
Well that doesn’t help all that much for T3 does it.
Don’t forget what Rufus said: Turbo only skips display frames, not actual hitting or invincible frames or any other types of frames. So while display frames are skipped, the actual game frames continue running in the background, without being skipped. So Ryu or Ken or anybody else, do not actually lose any frames on higher speeds.
Agreed with everything. Just a minor correction tho: both Ryu and Ken’s Jab Shoryukens are grounded and vulnerable for 2 frames, not 1. When it comes to Ryu’s Jab Shoryuken vs Ken’s Jab Shoryuken, I have never understood what’s going on. In theory, Ryu should stuff Ken more often, due to having 2 more invincible frames than Ken. But in my experience, Ken and Ryu trade about half the time, but the the other half, Ken stuffs Ryu. Ryu can stuff Ken, but only if he does the Shoryuken first. If they do it at the same time though, chances are Ken will win.
I created a slide show to help myself understand it a little better. It’s not frame perfect, but it’s close enough to give me a good idea of why Ken wins more often than Ryu:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2420/shoryuken1.png
As you can see Ken’s offensive hitbox is slightly bigger than Ryu. And Ken rises into the air first, which is key. The 1st offensive hitbox for both Ryu and Ken is not that big, but the 2nd one is huge, and Ken’s is bigger than Ryu’s, and whoever gets into the air first wins, I guess. The reason for that is cuz the vulnerable hitbox is small for both characters, and that’s why Ken wins. If the vulnerable hitbox covered the whole body, then Ryu would win, due to having more invincible frames. If you were to overlap the images above, Ryu’s 1st offensive hitbox would hit Ken before his invincibility ran out. As it is, Ken wins more often.
Edit: I fixed frames 7 and 8, and added frames 9 and 10. It’s closer to frame accurate now, though not 100%. Ken is throwable at frames 7 and 8, and Ryu is throwable at frames 9 and 10.
If those frames aren’t displayed then how would they have any bearing on anything? In Maj’s turbo speeds article, he stated that SFII had a two frame reversal window that could shrink to one frame at higher speeds but not be eliminated, since it always had to be there. However, how does the game calculate an entire T0 srk at T3? It would have to eliminate some frames, but it would probably shrink each section, like the startup, invin + hitting, not invin + hitting, recovery etc. In theory, the game could be sped up to a point in which all possible move states could be shrunk down to 1 frame each, assuming that every possible state has maximum shrink limit of 1.
If a frame isn’t displayed then how could it affect anything. You can’t be hit by a frame that gets skipped, since it wasn’t drawn.
Rufus’s statement taken as such also implies that at higher speeds the reversal window should still be 2 frames, which it apparently isn’t.
I’m not sure what i could add to this debate that i haven’t already written in that article about Turbo Speed Mechanics, but someone would have to provide hard evidence for me to ever believe that frames are being skipped internally in any Capcom game. I convinced that they’re all processed internally in all Capcom fighting games, including HF and ST. The only difference is that the displayed frameskip pattern in HF/ST is seemingly irregular.
“Drawn” and “Processed” are two different things. If you do a move with 3 frame startup simultaneously with your opponent doing a move with 4 frame startup, and the 4th frame (your first active frame) is skipped, then your move still wins cleanly. You don’t trade simply because your first active frame wasn’t drawn. Instead you see the 3rd frame with both attacks in startup, then the 4th frame is skipped, then you see the 5th frame where your attack has connected and your opponent is in hitstun.
You can never simultaneously initiate two opposing non-invincible attacks of unequal startup and have them trade.
I’m not very good with the st Strong, but apparently players like DGV can win an entire match with just that. LOL JK Cr Strong works great as a safe meaty and a confirmable combo starter. I would suggest checking out the hitbox pics on Rufus’ site and watching videos to get a better understanding of those two pokes.
Agreed with everything. Are you talking about Ryu’s Shoryuken vs Ken’s Shoryuken?
Maj is right, a frame can hit you without being drawn. For instance, Guile’s Flash Kick’s biggest hitting hitbox is on a single frame, and that frame may or may not actually be drawn on the screen, but it will always hit you, and never ever “whiff” because of it not being drawn.
Edit:This is only true as long as the hiboxes overlap suitably.
For example, Zangief’s standing fierce punch:
http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/zangief/fafierce.html
Has a start-up of 7 frames, but will trade with the Jab HHS which has a startup of 5 frames if they’re started at the same time.
If you look at the hitboxes, it’s not hard to work out why - the vulnerable hitbox extends at the same time that the hitting one does. A significant fraction of the moves in the game extend vulnerable and hitting boxes at the same time, and can thus trade with faster attacks. Similarly, moves that travel extend both types of hitbox simultaneously so they can trade with faster moves. Moreover, moves with multiple different hitbox arrangements could trade with slower attacks if only the later hitboxes will land. For example, Ryu’s standing far roundhouse http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/ryu/faroundhouse.html is quite fast to start-up, but the initial hitting frames will only hit if the opponent sticks something out.
Correct. If you consider only moves with a single active section and both are in range, what he states is valid. That is, the move with shorter startup wins, no startup frames from the slower move will be skipped in order for it to trade in a situation it otherwise would not. This was his point.
Great post, man. This clarifies why sometimes Ken would beat Ryu if the SRKs were done both out of range. My strategy in VST is to have Ken (or Sagat) wake up on a jab SRK that will hit them with the first active part if they stick out a normal or just block. I’m usually safe if it is blocked, from the right distance, or at best I eat a standing roundhouse. Sagat just loses cleanly almost every time, Ken is forced to use a jab SRK, so I have a 2/3 chance of stuffing in case they use the piano method.