There is no "lame", only zoning: The keep-away thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
81

Even if I agreed with that, what purpose does it serve aside from avoiding a bit of chip damage? Am I going to hitconfirm into a combo from a Mystic Sword M confirm without x-factor or meter? The fact of the matter is that I am not going to be able to stop all chip damage by merely using Mystic Sword, and I will be accomplishing almost no forward progression by doing so; unless of course I decide to teleport.

Thanks for making a list of things I already am quite aware of. Here, let me put it simply for you, they have a different animation, in this case with added hitboxes. Unibeam L and H use the same animation, thus they have the same hitbox.

If you saw a picture of a whiffed L and H unibeam, would you be able to tell the difference between the two? Now apply that theory to DoD L and M, you will clearly see the difference due to added daggers.

Who said anything about 4? I said “quite a few variations”.

My nitpicking actually does have a purpose, I’m essentially trying to discredit your knowledge regarding specific areas of Strange; thus trying to sway others who may be reading this to take everything you say regarding Strange with a grain of salt.

You may call it “nickpicking” or “irrelevant” or whichever term you wish to use. However, there is definitely a clear purpose to me doing it; hopefully others wont be fooled and think Strange is some type of godlike anti-zoner as you are so inclined to prove.

Wrong.

EoA+IP actually does travel full screen. It will even hit RR at fullscreen, granted it will only hit once on him.

Once again, I am “nitpicking”. Right?

Once again, you keep telling me things about Strange that I am already fully aware. It seems as though I must tell you everything I know about Strange, only then can I hope that you wont treat me like someone who never uses him.

Yes, you are right; a raw GoH is not a tracking projectile. Forgive me for assuming once again. I figured that it was implied that the graces must be FoF’d for the fullscreen properties to occur when I stated in my previous post “obviously you have to FoF them”.

Once again, I am “nickpicking”; love how you keep re-stating that.

My end game you ask? My point is that Strange flat out cannot compete with other zoning characters through methods of counter zoning, due to slow startup on DoD, EoA, GoH, etc. Especially since his DoD and EoA dissappear when he is hit, and have low durability.

Then that leaves him to Mystic Sword, his 2 supers; and his teleports. First off I’d like to say that basing a match-up solely on supers+x-factor is completely ludicrous. If that were the case then I could essentially SoV any unsafe move from an advancing opponent then x-factor for the kill. Mystic Sword does not solve my problems, it will merely horde off a zoning onslaught for a short duration of time; and I guarantee you that I will receive some chip damage here and there. But how do I approach zoners? Teleporting of course! Why didn’t I think of that?! Oh wait, I forgot. Strange doesn’t have a proper/useful wavedash, he has a slow walk speed, unsafe normals, his cr.L doesn’t even hit low; and he doesn’t even have an airdash! Teleporting behind a Morrigan, Trish, Tasky, etc who is neutral jumping/superjumping all over the place isn’t going to do me much good. Especially since Strange’s only real forward progression comes from his teleports, and he has trouble hitconfirming off of jumping opponents; and his normals have sub-par range! I’ll essentially just have to keep spamming teleports in the hope that I get a proper hitconfirm.

Bottom line: Strange is not a great anti-zoning character. Sure he can horde off zoning for a bit with Mystic Sword, and his supers can punish zoning. But in the end, all those tools do is give players the illusion that he is some type of anti-zoning machine. Without forward progression from the anti-zoning there is little to no point to in it, and no I am not talking about supers from Mystic Sword confirms. I’m talking about counter-zoning, or hitconfirming into a combo somehow. He’s just not good enough to properly counter-zone a proper zoning team. I wish he was, I truly do; but sadly he isn’t.

I love him to death though, and I’ll main him for as long I play this game. He becomes so much fun when you do land a proper hitconfirm into a crazy looking combo. But alas, he is held back by his character limitations; and there is little to nothing I can do to change that.

My mistake, I was merely looking upon your original post where you stated “he has two different projectiles that track to fullscreen (one of which can crumple)” and assumed that you thought that having the ability to do a fullscreen crumple was such a great thing. Of course, you had originally failed to state how time consuming/inefficient it was to do so and properly get a hitconfirm. Can’t tell you how many times people have avoided my 3Y graces by merely jumping.

And yes, of course he has different combinations. Nevertheless, they still require you to buy a ludicrous amount of time for a non-guaranteed reward while being pressured by zoning/rushdown. They are best used for incoming mix-ups or wake-up options in my honest opinion.

Hawkeye, Tasky, Arthur, Magneto, etc currently come to mind. This does not include the entire list of non-zoners/semi-decent zoners who can also punish Strange at that height. If you honestly think taking the risk is worth it for a non-guaranteed reward, go ahead and place those graces; good luck FoFing them after as well.

I actually used to be a Dorm main before Strange, he was my favorite character and I was able to rack up a lot of wins with him; though he became extremely boring to use after a while and I decided to drop him.

Anyways, a lot of Dorm’s advantages stem off the fact that he is just overall a better character. He of course has the second fastest beam super in the entire game (just short of Akuma’s) with a ridiculous hitbox; and it’s not easy to puninish compared to SoV which has a ton of frame disadvantage on block. Of course he also has stalking flares as well, when paired with purification and sometimes even an assist he not only gains the ability to anti-zone; but he also gains the ability to counter-zone with ludicrous amounts of chip damage. What a concept! Of course, even using raw purifications can prove to be extremely beneficial if used properly, they can even catch assists for an infinite and while doing so Dorm gains a good amount of meter to which he can put to use for more flares/chaotic flame. Of course, even dark hole’s can be used for zoning to some extent. Not to mention that Dorm doesn’t crack as easily under heavy pressure if the opponent decides to rushdown, he can even create his own self-mixups using dark matter then teleporting. If of course he does purification at a bad time and it puts him at a frame disadvantage, he can cancel into any one of his two amazing supers. I wouldn’t make this mistake too often though, as this of course does cost meter. He also has easier hitconfirms, better normals, good tri-jumps, etc then Strange. Plus, an added health bonus is also not something to ignore. Let’s not forget his spells either, I would primarily charge while waiting for incoming characters, while keeping your opponent pressured with a flare; or an assist. Infact, he can even charge during specific combos. Three charges together are mainly what you are going to want to primarily use. 2 blue, 1 red or 2 red, 1 blue are favorites as they come out in 1 frame, do good chip damage; and build good meter.

That is really all that currently comes to mind regarding my thoughts on Dorm’s anti-zoning/counter-zoning ability Vs. Strange’s.

Plenty of anti-zoning tools without meter? I think your referring to Mystic Sword, that’s pretty much it aside from his teleports. Even so, not much forward progression is going to be made from Mystic Sword spam.

You can neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling an assist. Thus It’s not easy to get a happy birthday whenever I choose. Not to mention the awkward spacing issues/hitbox issues that often occur. If of course my opponent is clueless and chooses to stand still while calling an assist, then yes I can punish them via happy birthday and hope to hell that spacing issues don’t occur. Though, I’d assume that after doing this once my opponent would clue in and neutral jump while calling assists to avoid this from happening again.

Yeah, I guess. But raw supers are something that can be said about any character that has a decent fullscreen super, which is a good portion of the cast.

Well, this is getting somewhat interesting. I’ll have to cut it off at this point for tonight though, as I’m extremely tired. Hopefully I didn’t forget to specify/include anything as I’m sure you’ll point it out.

I am expecting another reply from you whenever you get the chance. Keep rockin’ that quote in your signature, you can do this dude; prove me wrong!

Let’s continue. :slight_smile:

82

Damn. Shit’s getting serious in here.

Strange is an anti-zoner, in my opinion. He has the tools to move wherever he wants, but he needs enough breathing room to get going. While zoning stops stupid rushdown, it doesn’t generally respond well to calculated rushdown. Keep-away, in contrast, doesn’t allow you to move in the first place, so both forms of rushdown lose effectiveness. That’s why Strange can deal with zoners (Dante, GR, PW, Nemesis) very well but has trouble with bona fide keep-away. (Arthur, Hawkeye, Morrigan)

EDIT: To future generations, Spider-Dan’s signature is “I May Be Wrong, but I Doubt It”

83

Stopping your opponent from zoning, which is the point.

No, they do not. Two moves with different duration (in a 3D game) do not have “the same animation.” Try again.

Oh, are we ignoring things like frame data and damage and durability in favor of static screenshots now? Hey, if you close your eyes and just listen to Strange say “Daggers of Denak”, then DoD L and M actually have exactly the same properties! This is a fun game.

Given that you seem to have conveniently snipped the very next sentence that clearly explained that EoA will fail to reach a normal jumping opponent at fullscreen, I have to question the intellectual honesty of this reply.

Once again: yellow GoH is not a “projectile” at all. The only part of GoH that is a projectile is the explosion off of reds. Or do you somehow believe that if you set three reds around the playfield and fire FoF, the green fireball with exactly the same damage and durability as FoF is only a FoF until it hits the first glyph?

Here’s the thing about your nitpicking: you aren’t even factually correct. It’s one thing if you were actually making corrections based on falsifiable facts, but the majority of your argument is completely content-free subjective garbage like “DoD L and M are two different projectiles but Unibeam L and H are not” and “GoH is a tracking projectile.” Both of these statements are pure opinion (I would say a poorly conceived opinion, but opinion nonetheless).

So for you to offer up meaningless opinion on how we should classify Strange’s projectiles when talking about them (while ignoring the actual properties that are relevant to the discussion) with the idea that this proves that you know more about Strange than I do is laughable. I mean, unless you thought that you were actually surprising me by mentioning that DoD can be done with either L or M, or that [the projectile that is powered up by yellow GoHs] has multiple levels, the sole purpose of that response was to nitpick subjective terminology. This is the type of response that a person with a shallow understanding of the game makes to appear smart.

EoA is useless in a firefight. DoD can be used at positions on the screen where the startup does not matter. Mystic Sword accomplishes its role, which is to force grounded/low altitude zoners to stop zoning (without relying on teleport and getting into the teleport baiting game).

Why do any of these things matter if you’ve teleported behind a vulnerable opponent? It’s not like he’s Strider where his gameplan starts with a teleport. He has plenty of tools to stop zoners before the teleport gets involved.

If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion.

This is your fundamental problem. I never said Strange can zone; I said he’s a good ANTI-ZONER. Strange’s zoning can’t actually keep anyone out… but what it can do is stop people from trying to zone him, which forces them to try to rush him instead.

If Strange’s zoning were good at keeping people out, then I wouldn’t classify him as anti-zoning, I would classify him the same way I classify Hawkeye or Chris or Arthur: a zoner.

The only one of those characters who is “good” at punishing far top keepaway (without burning meter) is Hawkeye, and his solution (triple piercing) is highly vulnerable to teleport. The other characters you listed have to resort to superjumping any time they see Strange SJ, which is not the most reliable strategy when Strange can teleport to the ground at any time.

SoV can be done in the air, hits anywhere on the playfield, and still executes if he gets hit after the cinematic. It is indescribably superior to Chaotic Flame as an anti-zoning tool, full stop.

Dorm can legitimately zone with meter (though not against Strange, natch) and Purification is a solid tool to stop zoners. That being said, Strange’s teleport is vastly superior and he has much better options for harassing the opponent at SJ height. Airborne Dorm has nothing approaching the threat level (to a zoner) of SoV, so when he jumps, the opponent has much more freedom to attempt to zone. And Dorm’s teleport is too slow to punish anything of value. (Dark Hole is absolute garbage for zoning and anti-zoning, so I will ignore that part of your post.)

Zoners generally want to be at fullscreen. If you are at fullscreen and you call an assist, your options are restricted to a) block or b) jump/dash forward. Now, I’m not sure how much you actually zone, but being forced to constantly move forward every time you call an assist does not really help with the general zoning gameplan.

And ultimately, it’s the threat of SoV that makes more of an impact than actually doing it. Once your opponent knows it’s on the table, it restricts their options and makes things like, say, Mystic Sword spamming that much more viable. Could a zoning Task do normal jump air M arrows to discourage Mystic Sword spamming? Sure. But a) he can’t call his own assist to help firefight at fullscreen and b) he can’t do anything to punish an assist that Strange calls, because Legion Arrow is off the table due to 7 Rings. His zoning is effectively shut down.

How many “decent fullscreen supers” hit anywhere on the playfield from anywhere on the playfield? You act as if it’s not a big deal.

84

I might regret this…

Spoiler

Problem is, some characters (namely Morrigan) can continue to zone from super-jump height.

I think he means that the beam looks identical between both versions. If you fight an Iron Man, could you tell the difference between Unibeam L or M? If you are fighting Strange, you can clearly tell the difference between DoD L or M.

Easy there, no need to make this more of a flame war than it already is (talking to you too here, Drieze). DoD M has 3 times the startup and damage as DoD L. Unibeam H has about 1.5 times the damage and startup of Unibeam L.

I think he means that the direction of the fireball after hitting either GoH is tracking. Since you have to use GoH to activate tracking, I think he is just assuming that you would automatically put the two together.

Hate to be a grammar Nazi, but the bolded is actually a testable “fact”, not an opinion. The misunderstanding here is what you guys are meaning when you say GoH. For the record, GoH does not track; the FoF after it hits a GoH does.

Calm down. Does anyone else think we need a thread devoted exclusively to long, drawn out arguments over mundane things between two posters?

After checking the guide, I will say that Mystic Sword is useful against people with okay projectile games like Ryu, Thor, and Frank. However, the unimpressive durability (8 low priority points) and relatively slow startup diminish it’s usefulness against stronger zoners, like Hawkeye, Arthur, Hsien-Ko, and Magneto.

Do you mean straight up? Mystic Sword H goes at a 45 degree angle upward.

With meter, Strange is very good at stopping zoning. Without meter, he has to rely on having “better” mobility than the people who are keeping him out, like teleporting and flying.

Arthur can j.S downward if he needs to fall quickly. Swagnus is perfectly okay with Strange super jumping, it makes getting in much easier for him, which is exactly where he wants to be against Strange. Though Chris, Task, and Hsien-Ko are in trouble there. Thankfully, Vajra exists.

Some characters (Arthur, Morrigan, Task) can move and shoot at the same time. They might not want to, but they still can.

With meter, Strange becomes the anti-zoner, no question. But if he’s sitting on meter here, we can assume the opponent has meter, which can present problems for him. Shadow Servant, Gimlet, and most level 3’s can beat out Strange with meter if he doesn’t use it responsibly.

I feel like an enabler now…:frowning:

85

i feel like doctor strange’s daggers really should let you perform air actions after them and that he should be able to do multiples of them in flight mode

it just seems real silly that out of all the characters for some reason he’s like the one characters who is (due to the speed of the move) encouraged to do superjump projectiles while simultaneously also having almost no payoff for doing it due to the recovery and damage it has

really overall i just feel like the dude should be megafast and do crazy damage on his projectiles because he is a sweet wizard

edit: seriously listen to his theme and you’re like ‘dang this dude has got to be a sick ass wizard’ and then you look at his picture and you’re like ‘DANG this dude definitely has to be a sick ass wizard’ and then hes all slow and wrinkly and weak in game and you’re like “i guess he’s just some old guy wearing stockings”

86

He also needs a 16-way airdash.

In all seriousness, I feel they did very well with Strange balance-wise. He has faults, but he can use assists fo cover them. He does enough damage in a combo to pose a threat, but he has to actually work a little bit for that hit.

87

i feel like dr. strange was intended to do this, but he got stupid phoenix-type nerfs instead. meanwhile, i watch characters like doom, trish, etc. super jump and just fire off any and all projectiles they feel like while being able to block/act afterwards.
i wish dr. strange was a better anti-zoner than he is. 7 rings is fun, but you have to use it against an anchor characters so there’s no DHC business and xFactor is probably already spent.

88

Morrigan in clone mode is one of the few characters that can zone Strange (or pretty much anyone else). But when she’s not burning meter, she’s a mediocre zoner, somewhere around Trish’s level. He can slice through her zoning with Mystic Sword quite easily, or take the time to set up glyphs.

It’s meaningless terminology semantics. What impact does it make on the strategy if we call DoD or Unibeam two different versions of the same move vs. calling them two different moves? It’s the kind of subjective critique that one makes when one has nothing of substance to say, and as I already said, it’s a particularly poor critique because the logic is questionable. Are Rocket Punch L, M, and H three “different moves”? Is horizontal Typhoon three “different moves” because there are different numbers of mini-whirlwinds? Is Hawkeye’s standing H several dozen “different moves” based on the precise timing and angle that you release it? The whole line of attack is as ridiculous as it is unfounded.

Wrong. Whether or not the projectile that tracks you should be called “GoH” or “FoF” is opinion, and if you have a way to conclusively prove what it should be called (which is the entire substance of Dreize’s so-called correction), then I look forward to seeing it.

Although I must say that I am confused as to why you would even mention this to me, since my point was that the projectile is FoF.

I am not particularly interested in theory fighter discussions about what projectile should win based on the data in the guide. If you were reading the guide, you’d think that Disruptor/Plasma Beam/Unibeam could easily beat Hawkeye’s Speed Shot. In practice, Speed Shot completely annihilates their grounded beam game, and it’s not even a contest.

Are you seriously asking me if I believe that Mystic Sword H travels at a 90 degree angle?

This is intended to be a high-level discussion. I presume that all of us understand the basic facts at hand.

Ryu is good at stopping zoning “with meter,” but the difference is that Ryu’s anti-zone threat revolves solely around that meter. Strange’s threat is that he can kill 2/3rd of your team with his meter (from anywhere on the playfield), but can still shut down your zoning without it.

Arthur gets hammered by teleporters of any kind, so this line of argument is a dead end. And if the argument is that Magneto wants to rush Strange… I agree? The point is that Magneto can’t zone him.

If your solution to a tactic you can’t do anything about is to pick Strider assist and spam that, you’re in for some rough times.

Morrigan with meter is a problem for practically everyone, which is why she’s done the best of any zoner, by far.
Hawkeye can go fishing with random Gimlets, but (unlike many other characters) there is no spot on the playfield where Strange can’t retaliate. Best case is SoV; worst case is teleport into combo.
What zoner’s LV3 is a threat at fullscreen? Arthur? 7 Rings cancels it completely, and Strange can DHC into his next character (using 2 meters compared to Arthur’s 3) and force Arthur to XFC or die.

89

I don’t see why that’s an issue. Again, presuming meter parity, opponent does projectile super, you do 7 Rings, opponent DHCs to non-projectile super, you DHC to a safe super. At fullscreen, this shouldn’t be a problem.

90

Stopping your opponent from zoning while still getting chipped? Where is the forward progression? Seems like you can’t even grasp this same simple concept that I keep bringing up.

Are we really arguing about this? Then again, you seem like the type of person who will argue about anything in order to justify your main point.

Let’s just say it’s opinionated then. This argument already has too many sub-categories, might as well drop a few un-related ones.

You really don’t have the ability to admit when you are wrong, do you? I stated that EoA can track fullscreen, I never said anything about it following you fullscreen+neutral jumping. It follows fullscreen, that’s all I stated. You were wrong, I was right.

Regardless, it doesn’t relate much to Strange’s anti-zoning; as we’ve both stated before. Also, it’s quite hypocritical for you to say that I “conveniently snipped out the very next sentence” while you only cover the points that you deem fit and snip out a good portion of my posts.

Once again, keep telling me things I am already fully aware of. It seems like I must specify little thing for you to understand what I am referring to.

Yes, GoH is not a projectile. FoF is. Once the FoF hits the GoH, it powers it up (depending on what GoH it is) and it gains tracking properties.

Does stating the obvious make you feel like some type of genius? It`s sad that you cannot seem to comprehend things that are implied.

You couldn’t be more incorrect. Your strategy seems to be wording things in such a condescending way with little to no proper explanation. You have yet to tell me 1 single thing that I did not already know about Strange. You seem to think that Mystic Sword is the all-powerful divine special move yet you repeatedly fail to realize that it’s just not good enough to stop heavy zoning, especially with assists backing the zoner up. Plus, it pushes the opponent back on block aiding them with spacing themselves from you. You seem to also think that Strange’s supers solve all his problems, how laughable. Want to know what Strange players primarily use Mystic Sword M for? Midscreen blockstrings. It’s not spammable enough to stop heavy zoning and help you advance, plain and simple. Get it through your thick head.

To be honest with you, the only Strange argument you’ve actually seemed to have success in is the whole “DoD L and M vs Unibeam L and H” debate. Which in itself is totally irrelevant to the main point being Strange’s anti-zoning ability. Other then that, you’ve only been catching me in situations where I haven’t specified myself enough for you to understand.

EoA is useless in firefights, we’ve established that; let’s move on. DoD M would be way more useful if Strange could actually use it, then teleport at superjump height. It’s too bad that it disappears when he is hit, has slow start-up, and can easily miss if the zoner is jumping around quite a bit. Once again, Mystic Sword cannot keep up with fast projectiles backed up with assists. The best thing that Strange can do against zoners and has worked quite well for me is calling hidden missiles, teleporting behind the opponent, and while doing so do a basic ground series converted into a blockstring if blocked, while the missiles are falling down call out a horizontal projectile assist while teleporting behind the opponent. It’s a simple process of keeping an opponent locked down while almost simultaneously performing a teleport mix-up. Seems to work well on zoners from my experience, however it is very team specific and I was merely giving a random example.

What if they recover fast enough and jump away/block/etc? Morrigan for example, is extremely hard to punish from my experience. My point is that his close range abilities aren’t that great compared to a great anti-zoner like Dormammu. It all comes back to how good the actual character is in the end.

Mystic Sword H will not solve Strange’s problems, he will still receive chip once in a while, it’s unsafe if whiffed, and it just doesn’t help him progress forward; once again. Even If I do stop my opponents projectiles once in a while, what good does it really do in the end? If the opponent isn’t getting punished and is getting in chip on me once in a while, why should he/she decide to rushdown?

Your fundamental problem is that you just don’t seem to understand that stopping the opponents projectiles once in a while in no way forces them to rush you down. But dude, Hawkeye’s quick shot H acts just like Mystic Sword; he must be an anti-zoner as well! Anyways, I don’t really want to get into Hawkeye; you’ll merely use him as another front to attempt to prove me wrong on.

I don’t want to get into any other characters, as I feel like we’re just going to get more off topic; my mistake for mentioning them. Let’s continue discussing about Strange’s anti-zoning abilities.

Both supers have their uses. SoV is in no way indescribably superior due to it’s slower start-up, frame dis-advantage, etc. Though, it’s great for tracking, can be used in the air, etc. As said before, both supers have their uses. I will agree with you on the Strange Vs Dorm match-up though, as that is one of my most favorable match-ups while using Strange. Dorm’s main zoning tool (purification) can easily be snuffed out by a simple teleport due to it’s frame disadvantage if whiffed. Though, rushdown Dorm can pose a huge problem for Strange. Also, Strange’s teleport is much better; but is not vastly superior. All Dorm’s teleports track in the air, and he can teleport behind cornered opponents; though Strange’s is much faster and I personally prefer it. Dark hole is obviously not as good as purification, but it has it’s uses; especially while Dorm is mid-air.

Let’s get back on topic though, I hope my Dorm anti-zoning explanation was adequate and successfully stimulated your curiosity.

I zone quite a bit actually. I use Hawkeye on anchor, Strange on point with missiles backing him up, and I’ll occasionally do a bit of zoning with Doom backed up by Hawkeye’s assist.

Regardless, if you’re facing a Strange player who has meter to spare you should be neutral jumping forwards, backwards, etc while calling an assist. It’s not a big deal, really.

The threat of SoV, oh boy. They can still call assists as long as they are not standing right beside the assist. Air legion arrow is not off of the table since Strange’s 7 rings does not have a large enough hitbox for it to be able to catch Tasky while he is high up in the air. His zoning is not shutdown. Also, Strange does not have an unlimited amount of meter; as I must state again.

Once again, I am expecting another reply. Hopefully we can try to stay a bit more on topic going forward. In-case you have forgot, the topic is “Strange’s anti-zoning abilities”.

Keep it coming my good ol’ friend Spider-Dan. :smiley:

91
Spoiler

So by your logic, are Chris’s Gun Fire M and Gun Fire H are the same move, despite the fact that they have different animations, different hitboxes, different effects, and different frame data?

You said: “GoH is a tracking projectile.” Is GoH a tracking projectile? No, because it is stationary. If you are debating what it should be called, you will mislead a lot of people who read your post with that phrasing.

"If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion."
Doesn’t Mystic Sword H travel up?

What if their zoning abuses an assist? Doesn’t he need meter to stop that?

But it shuts off Strange’s air game, because he is sooo friggin slow. Therefore, he’s stuck to the ground and you’ve shut off another part of his gameplan. Am I missing something?

What zoner’s LV3 is a threat at fullscreen? Arthur? 7 Rings cancels it completely, and Strange can DHC into his next character (using 2 meters compared to Arthur’s 3) and force Arthur to XFC or die.
[/quote]

This isn’t for randomly throwing out. If it hits an assist, Strange can’t DHC in the middle of a very happy birthday party. If he uses SoV, he can’t activate 7 rings and gets hit. Why would anyone just spend 3 bars for no apparent reason?

Can you guys please use spoilers? Scrolling through these massive walls of text isn’t fun for anybody.

92

that’s okay if your strange is dying and you need to DHC out of him safely, but “trololololol, i got both of us to waste two meters” isn’t a valid strategy. depending on the DHCs your opponent has, you might have just given them a free powerup hyper. people don’t really throw random projectile hypers at strange anymore without the plan of DHCing/xFactoring, so the situation you described is pretty much strange getting baited. i’m not saying it’s comepletely wrong, but considering the alternative, why would you want to waste the meter?

if someone, like ryu, is planning on using shinku hadoken>DHC, the best thing strange can do is wait activate 7 rings after the shink-freeze screen instead of using it on reaction. that way, even if he does DHC, the counter will activate and tag the DHC character. if a character like storm tries this, she’s screwed either way because hail storm always comes out.

i was just saying that i personally like using strange when a projectile heavy anchor is alone because there’s no DHC bs, probably no xFactor; even if there is, you got them to use it prematurely, no more randomly throwing an xFactor lvl 3 projectile hyper in hopes of gaining some advantage, because people still have this very bad habit, and they won’t stop in the middle of a fight because it’s what they’re used to doing, etc., etc… so they can either get 7 ringed to death, or succumb to strange’s mediocre zoning knowing they can’t throw a projectile hyper to stop it.

93

Spoilered by request, though I don’t understand when PageDown became a big hassle.

[details=Spoiler]

How is your zoner opponent still chipping you if you have stopped his zoning? Make up your mind.

In case this part is unclear: you cannot just stop your opponent from zoning with Mystic Sword, or with teleports, or with 7 Rings, or with SoV. The point is that with all of those options on the table, you can reduce their options to a subset that is drastically in Strange’s favor.

Can an opponent call an assist and pump out enough durability to beat Mystic Sword? Sure. Can they pump out enough durability to beat Mystic Sword+assist? Probably. Can they do so in a way that does not glaringly expose them to teleports or SoV? Not really.

Didn’t we just establish that fullscreen is bad for the zoner, since calling an assist limits your options to jump/dash forward or block?

If you’re playing correctly, you don’t actually have to use them. Much like Cable, it is the threat of the super that modifies your opponent’s behavior in a way that makes it easy for Strange to defeat their zoning.

I’m not particularly interested in what the Strange players who apparently have problems with zoning are doing.

…unless Strange also has assists, in which case it keeps up quite nicely.

So basically, you don’t do anything that any other teleport character couldn’t do. One benefit of that strategy is that it’s simpler, I suppose.

I am absolutely stunned that you think that his close range abilities are even remotely relevant as to whether or not he can make his opponent want to stop zoning. I’m not talking about anti-zoning in the sense of rushing the opponent down and confusing them; Strange sucks at that. I am talking about anti-zoning in the sense that when they try to zone Strange, he is perfectly happy to let them sit at fullscreen and punish them.

Why does Strange care about moving forward? The point of his prowess as an anti-zoner is that you force the opponent to abandon his zoning strategy and rush you. Strange doesn’t even want to move forward against an opponent that’s trying to zone! The only time he should be moving forward is when he teleports to punish them (or as a FoF mixup).

…which means that at fullscreen (a zoner’s desired range), they can only call an assist when jumping/dashing forward (i.e. as they give up fullscreen range).

If you don’t see an issue with a zoner being required to move forward any time he wants to call an assist, I don’t know what to tell you.

At maximum normal jump height, air Legion Arrow is hit cleanly by 7 Rings. Are you seriously talking about Task zoning a grounded opponent with SJ arrows? How are you possibly integrating an assist call with that… call them before you leave the ground and shoot arrows on the way down? Your assist would be getting murdered by Mystic Sword + Strange’s assist.

Meter parity: if Task has a meter to use Legion Arrow, it is not unreasonable to presume that Strange has a meter for 7 Rings. Unless your “strategy” is to somehow have the meter advantage at all times?[/details]

94

Spoilered by request.

[details=Spoiler]

If you’re really interested in debating terminology, I would classify moves that are the-same-but-more (at different strengths) as “the same move,” as well as moves that are the-same-but-at-a-different-angle. So by that logic, I consider Gun Fire L, M, and H to be “different” moves, as all of them serve completely different purposes.

Jesus Christ, man. Are you reading the thread?

When I said, “GoH is a tracking projectile,” I WAS CITING DREIZE’S POSITION, NOT MY OWN. Try reading the entire sentence that you plucked that quote from:

“It’s one thing if you were actually making corrections based on falsifiable facts, but the majority of your argument is completely content-free subjective garbage like ‘DoD L and M are two different projectiles but Unibeam L and H are not’ and ‘GoH is a tracking projectile.’”

My position, and I quote, is:

“GoH is not a tracking projectile, period. The only projectile from GoH is the stationary explosions from a red GoH. FoF tracks; GoH does not.”

Does “up” exclusively mean “at a right angle to the ground” to you?

When someone says that Zero’s air buster fires down, are you confused that it doesn’t fire directly below him?

Not if he calls his own assist. What is the opposing zoner going to do, super?

How does any character deal with an opponent whose strategy is dependent on spamming Strider assist?

  • pick an assist that stops/punishes Strider (e.g. AA Gamma Charge, Lariat, Jam Session)
  • chicken block the assist and punish Strider manually

It’s not like Strider assist is more annoying for Strange than it is for anyone else. For what it’s worth, Strange can just S Strider assist cleanly (the timing is incredibly easy).

Again, whose LV3 are you talking about? Nearly all of them fall into one or more of the following categories:

  • won’t do anything to an assist
  • won’t reach Strange at fullscreen
  • gets swallowed up by 7 Rings[/details]
95

Edited because my added statement made this a much longer post.

Spoiler

It just looks cleaner and neater than massive walls of text. It’s not about convinence, it just looks better and more presentable.

Spider-Dan, I think you are confusing zoning and keep-away. Strange does well versus most character’s zoning because he can stay out of their ideal “zone” where they want you. If you are fighting Magneto or Dorm, they have several “zones” where they are effective, so Strange has trouble sticking to a solid plan. Keep-away is similar to zoning, but your ideal “zone” is “blocking and not in close range”, as opposed to a set physical part of the screen. Strange has trouble with this because he doesn’t have the tools to cover his approach assistless and doesn’t have the projectile durability or projectile speed to contend with true keep-away characters, so he’s pretty much stuck with a risky approach or having to rely on meter to threaten the opponent if they refuse to understand that you only need to change your gameplan up a bit to cope with what he has. Without meter, he’s an anti-zoner, not an anti-keep-away character. If you are wanting to focus on how he fights your opponent’s attempt to space him out and keep him in an ideal spot, there is a thread devoted to spacing.

I’m not arguing what you belive, I’m arguing that your phrasing doesn’t talk about what GoH should mean, it talks about GoH is. If you are trying to prove that GoH should not be defined as the FoF after it reaches the GoH but as the GoH itself, you need to talk about the definition. I do find it hypocritical of you that you will complain that people aren’t quoting the rest of your sentence to distort the meaning, yet that is exactly what you are doing in order to prove your point.

No, but I am confused that you are (denotatively) saying that he can’t fire up when you say in a later post that he can fire up. I know Mystic Sword H travels upward, but I’m finding your phrasing very inconsistent.

96

Man I don’t even consider Strange a zoning ANYTHING, he’s so bad at it

…I really don’t see how Chaotic Flame is better than Spell of Vishanti as an anti-zoning tool though. SoV is one of the defining tools in the game for that.

97

SOV is better as an anti-zoning tool for 2 reasons. Its not limited to him being on the ground period. The 2nd being the player trying to zone strange will have to alter his strategy. Forcing a zoning style player is to alter strategy is the single biggest thing you can do to put yourself at an advantage.

Why is there an argument about what strange does? Just put him second DHC into him xfactor happy birthday and be up 3 to 1 against the oppenent. Thats all you need to know to have an effective strange. Dieminion for the longest was doing this and getting wins.

98

I’m not getting into another argument about terminology.

Given that my very first post to this thread was a clear and unambiguous definition of what I consider zoning, when I say that Strange is anti-zoning, I mean that he is effective at stopping strategies that involve using long-ranged attacks to keep your opponent as far away as possible while you whittle them to death. Whatever term you personally want to use to describe that playstyle, Strange is good at stopping it.

…

I see the source of your confusion. When Dreize was talking about characters like Morrigan and Trish that like to fire down at angles, and I said, “If only there were a version of Mystic Sword that aimed up, so you could fight against these characters that are trying to zone you from the air. Then this would be a completely different discussion,” you believed that I was unaware of Mystic Sword H and that this sentence should be taken at face value, not unlike if I had said, “If only Strange had some way to counter projectile supers to protect his assists from being punished.”

When I say that this is intended to be a high-level discussion, these are the kinds of things I feel are implied. I thought that the existence of Mystic Sword H was something that was so basic and fundamental that anyone reading this thread would take it for granted that my statement was facetious. But I was apparently wrong, so let me rephrase that reply so as to relieve any confusion:

Doctor Strange has a special attack called Mystic Sword, which fires a fairly-high durability projectile. If you execute this move with the heavy attack button, it will travel at an angle that is useful for attacking opponents who are trying to fire down on you from an angle. Given the speed and durability of this projectile relative to the projectiles that the aforementioned characters possess, this move can be a useful tool for discouraging such a tactic from said characters.

99

All right, I just wasn’t sure if you were being sarcastic or uninformed; I just played it safe and made sure we were on the same page.

100

Trying to play the game differently than everyone else, because you are so desperate to win, is the definition of lame. You play a game to have fun, and winning does not equal fun. I’ve been in lobbies where I destroy everyone over and over and it’s quite boring, even if you are trying out new teams. Constantly running away and spamming projectiles is not fun for anyone involved, especially for your opponent who wants to play the game as it was meant to be played.

BTW, it’s called a fighting game, not a zoning game, not a keep away game. Maybe someday Capcom will release “Super Street Zoner” for you guys. Until then just stick to SFxT, and leave UMvC3 to the rest of us.