Really wish i could upload vids of my point Arthur in action, but lack the tech to do so.
Hawkeye is good, you just gotta spend more time with him and get used to what he does. Hidden missiles are great for many reasons, but yeah, he does stay out there a while. The idea is to Protect him while he’s out but that does not always work out
When you see him intent on getting in from the get-go, do NOT run away. That just puts you closer to the corner and making it easy for them. Instead don’t be afraid and run towards him the whole time and before the match starts, jump forward and go for an air throw. Most players will think you’re just trying to jump over to evade and go for a throw also.
This will result in you either winning it or causing a break away, both are good. Or they won’t anticipate this and you’ll jump over them, where you can proceed to use a double jump to get further away and then use jumping S to reach the ground fast. Or if they’re chasing you, jumping back and jumping S to maybe catch them for an air combo. Either way as soon as you can, use Goddess Bracelet to push them back. Totally worth burning a meter.
lol i use Hsien-Ko & Phoenix Wright’s for target practice. They’re no threat for the most part.
I play a great keepaway game with Trish backed up with Doom hidden missiles. I lay ground traps and shoot voltage from the air and call hidden missiles when I get them in a position so that Doom will appear behind them. I will also call Hidden Missiles if I get a hit confirm…the missiles OTG so I can do Round Harvest and finish with air Maximum Voltage. If Doom is on point, I get back into the corner and just stagger hidden missles and call Trish for her voltage assist if they try to get close. If I get too pressured I will go into flight and wave dash away until I can get into a good range to start my keepaway game again. I get ALOT of ragequits and hatemail. Most people call me “PUSSY” or “FAG.”
What some people are calling “keepaway” (just avoid opponent at all costs) is more accurately described as “runaway”. See early MVC2 Storm for a good example. The only viable runaway character I’ve seen in UMVC3 is MODOK; he can simply chill at an altitude that other characters literally cannot reach.
“Zoning” and “keepaway” are synonymous; the “keep” part of “keepaway” involves, you know, actively keeping them away (usually with projectiles). This is what characters like Hawkeye, Chris, Morrigan, etc. specialize in.
The “problem” with zoning in this game (at least, compared to MVC2) is that nearly every character has at least one of the following:
a) teleport
b) fast projectile super
c) super with large amount of (projectile) invincibility
That’s not to say that this is necessarily bad (from a balance standpoint), but it accounts for a large portion of why zoning is so much worse in (U)MVC3 than MVC2. That being said, UMVC3 is a damn sight better than vanilla MVC3, in which zoning was just a pointless waste of time; Phoenix dismantled zoning teams with no effort, and Wolvie was nearly impossible to zone, too.
Zoning isn’t totally hopeless in UMVC3 but the deck is certainly stacked against you. Outside of the hardcore anti-zoning characters like Dormammu and Strange, a lot of the rest of the game turns into bait-the-teleport, and teleports aren’t quite vulnerable enough to balance that. For example, in Hawkeye vs. Dante, suppose Hawkeye successfully baits a Dante teleport and gets his free airthrow. What now? Well, Hawkeye’s combo damage is unimpressive to start with, so when you tack the 50% throw penalty on top, it means you either burn a LOT of meter for the kill, or you dealt 40-50% damage and reset to neutral. And what happens if Dante guessed right? Hawkeye is dead and my next character falls into a completely safe (for Dante) Acid Rain mixup. And this is with a character that has a clean and easy self-combo off of an airthrow; Dante can teleport on someone like Arthur repeatedly with no fear. What is Arthur going to do, land 10 airthrows in a row?
It would be nice if teleports were slightly more punishable, but given the amount of complaining that exists in this game already (with heavily disadvantaged zoning), I can see why Capcom doesn’t want a precisely level playing field.
Fuck this shit. The secret weapon to stop keep away is a well played out Deadpool. You can keep Character/Hidden Missiles at bay with him all day with his guns and properly played fundamentals. Deadpool kills ANY keep away team if used even half correctly.
How is “Zoning” (to clarify I’m referring to a DiosX style) with Drones compare to missles? Drones covers the ground perfectly fine but what happens when they superjump? Ofcourse this is character specific but are there any clear tactics to deal with this? On a final note how would one call drones while keeping away? Just find a hole in your specials? For referral I am talking about Dante/Ironman/Sent in any order
Mystic Sword has enough speed and durability to win most grounded firefights, he has two different projectiles that track to fullscreen (one of which can crumple), projectile supers do not work on him at all, he has an extremely fast air-usable teleport, oh, and he can confirm happy birthday into two dead characters with 1 meter from any point on the playfield.
If you’ve figured out how to zone without using an assist, then more power to you. Otherwise, trying to zone Strange is not advisable.
Drones are better at stopping rush from the front (or teleports behind). Missiles are better at stopping rush from above. Either assist can have problems if your opponent has a beam assist (drones disappear and Doom won’t get missiles out).
Mystic sword is probably Strange’s best tool for anti-zoning, however it is nothing to brag about. Sure it has tonnes of durability, but it comes out relatively slow compared to most projectiles, it’s not very spammable either. Anyone who knows how to jump will easily avoid Mystic Sword.
Secondly, he has more then 2 different projectiles that track fullscreen. He has DoD L, DoD M, EoA+IP, quite a few variations of GoH L and M. The problem with these is that they take way too long to come out/setup, they’re not that great for tracking and can easily be avoided as well. No zoning team is just going to sit around while Strange summons all his shit on screen.
Plus if Strange gets hit the DoD’s disappear, same with EoA. The EoA also has garbage durability as well (things like Spencer’s grapple, Wesker’s gunshot, etc go through it).
Projectile supers do work on Strange if he is not on the ground, or if he doesn’t have meter. Anyways, I don’t know too many zoning based teams who would randomly use fullscreen supers, let alone on a Strange player. Hawkeye’s gimlet is too hard to counter due to it’s speed, Morrigan will never be seen doing fullscreen supers, Arthur will usually just spam projectiles fullscreen and occasionally use gold armor to power-up, Joe will send out voomerangs, etc.
Since Strange’s counter beam doesn’t come out as fast as say Akuma’s beam, or Dorm’s beam it can usually be blocked unless the projectile’s being thrown out have a lot of recovery.
Sure his teleport is fast, but against zoners who jump a lot (Hawkeye, Morrigan, etc) it’s very hard to hitconfirm into a combo for him; he certainly isn’t Magneto or Nova who can hitconfirm off of just about anything. Plus, the only teleport that tracks in the air is his teleport H.
Sure, he can happy birthday from anywhere; the problem is the strict spacing of the two characters. You have two options in this situation.
Use SoV, x-factor, then use SoV again. Keep in mind that this is a tad risky since your essentially blowing x-factor and 2 bars for a non-guaranteed kill. Also, this assumes that you have x-factor and 2 bars to spare.
Use SoV, x-factor, teleport H, IP, convert into a combo. This is also quite risky, unless the two characters are almost right next to each other one of them will most likely drop out due to spacing issues. Also, this assumes that you have 1 bar and x-factor to spare.
Also, keep in mind that Strange has low health (850k) so chipping him out can be done quite easily and he will most likely die from a single combo. Strange is not a great anti-zoner. I wish he was, but sadly he isn’t.
Luckily for me I have Doom+Hidden missiles on my Strange team, so it makes things a tad easier. It can still be very frustrating to deal with proper zoning though, if EoA had better durability it would make things a lot easier for my team.
I wish you could pick the same character multiple times here. I would pay money to watch Doom/Doom/Doom spam missiles with random beams or photon shots thrown in.
On a serious note, why don’t more people use Doom keep-away? Missiles, Photon, and Beam are all very good zoning tools. Give him an assist to cover him (Sent, Strange) and you have a team that fills the screen with hitboxes.
Don’t really know why you had to change the post to “teleport.” Like I said, properly played Deadpool can shut it down. Morrigan doesn’t even have a teleport to get out of bullets. Jumping out doesn’t really matter since things will just be reset again when she gets on the ground. Doom isn’t going to be getting any shine since Deadpool is already going to lock him down. Like I said, Deadpool shuts down Character/Missiles easy. Once Deadpool makes sure that Doom doesn’t want to come out anymore, dealing with Morrigan gets way easier. People already said and a example like Bum quoted, “Okay, Morrigan is figured out but Morrigan/Doom isn’t.” Once you get rid of Doom, yes, Morrigan is still an annoying tramp, but its easier to deal with her afterwards. Teleporting from Deadpool is just a plus weapon to have.
You don’t need a teleport to beat Morrigan/Doom as Moon’s proved it and beat ChrisG twice at Big Two #39 with his Nova/Task/Ammy. Sent Chris to losers and met him in losers finals and knocked him out. Truthfully, I’ve never seen anyone do that at Big Two yet but Moon’s slowly grinded it out and took the W even if it was 3-2 for both matches.
Mystic Sword is not a zoning tool; it is an anti-zoning tool. The fact that you can avoid Mystic Sword is irrelevant, since the purpose of the move is to interrupt your zoning attempts, not keep you from moving.
I suppose you also consider Unibeam L and Unibeam H to be two “different” projectiles? Eye of Agamotto does not track fullscreen and Grace of Hoggoth is not a tracking projectile at all; Flames of the Faltine is. If you are going to continue this sort of pedantic, useless nitpicking, at least get your facts straight.
Most non-missiles zoning teams have major problems attacking an opponent who is at the far top portion of the playfield. Strange can set them up there rather easily. EoA is completely useless as anti-zoning and there is nothing more to say on that.
Characters like Trish, Taskmaster, Sentinel, Joe, Deadpool, etc. can normally throw out their projectile supers to win firefights (particularly when they have a chance to also hit an assist). This doesn’t work against Strange.
Um, teleport M and hit the opponent in the back as they are falling? Morrigan is a slightly different story (if she can side-correct her flight input fast enough) but any of the other jumping zoners are a non-issue.
Then I guess it’s a good thing for Strange that zoning assists come out almost right next to the point character, isn’t it?
This is what I meant when I said that unless you can zone without using an assist, keepaway does not work on Strange.
Because Deadpool doesn’t have any particularly scary tool against zoning outside of his teleport, and any character with a teleport is scary to zoners. His guns have pathetic durability and he struggles to compete in any kind of firefight.
This is one of the most impressive examples of talking without actually saying anything that I’ve ever seen.
Jumping out “doesn’t matter” because “things will be reset” when Morrigan lands? What things? How does it “not matter” that Morrigan has two Soul Fists falling on your head when she lands?
Deadpool is going to “lock Doom down”? How?
How does Deadpool “shut down Character/missiles easy” when real zoners like Arthur and Hawkeye shred through Deadpool’s bullets like butter?
None of those characters are Deadpool. And you’re right: Morrigan is the one zoner that teleporting isn’t particularly effective against, which is why she’s done far, far better in tournaments than any other zoner.
So again: given that Deadpool’s only real anti-zoning weapon is his teleport, and teleporting isn’t even that good against Morrigan, please explain how Deadpool shuts her down “easily.”
Even so, it comes out relativity slow and zoners who neutral jump or superjump a lot are going to completely avoid it and continue with their zoning, your going to be left in no better position then before, and at a frame dis-advantage if completely avoided.
You clearly know little to nothing about this character. First off, unibeam L and H have the same hitbox, thus I consider them to be the same type of projectile. When using DoD L only 1 dagger comes out, when using DoD M, 3 come out. Thus they have different hitboxes, thus I consider them to be two different moves. Secondly, EoA+IP does track fullscreen; if you knew anything about Strange you’d know that. Also, sorry for giving you too much credit; I had assumed that you knew what I meant by “quite a few variations of GoH L and M”. Obviously you have to FoF them, and yes they have fullscreen tracking properties.
So you expect me to superjump and place 3 graces, then fall down since I can only use 3 special moves in the air; then hope my opponent gives me enough time to FoF them? And on top of that, it’s not even a guaranteed hit; plus some zoners can punish me during the placement of the graces.
How ludicrous.
Must I say it again? This assumes that Strange has meter to spare, and that he is grounded. Sure if you have the resources to spare you can counter their super depending on how much recovery the super entails.
Sure I guess, hopefully they don’t react in time. Strange’s normals are pure ass. On a good Morrigan, this is out of the question; as she will flight cancel and block. I was mainly referring to characters who like to stay at superjump height while zoning (trish, morrigan, task, etc). Strange has trouble hitconfirming from superjump height.
This is the type of remark that would come from someone who does not play Strange on a regular basis. You better hope to hell that the person doesn’t neutral jump forward, backwards, etc while calling the assist. Also, you better hope that the two characters have a similar hitbox as weird spacing issues often occur. If it fails, your down x-factor and 1 meter.
Sounds risky to me.
That’s great. You just named 3 low-ish health characters who are all better solo zoners then Strange, I applaud you. Not sure how this is relevant, chipping those 3 characters isn’t exactly easy since they are all quite good zoners themselves.
The quote in your signature says so much about you. I now understand your rather conceited internet attitude. How wonderful.
His durability on his bullets isn’t the greatest yes, but what they can do to keep people locked down is very good. Deadpool, I agree, needs another projectile assist to get in with and aid his lockdown but that’s easy stuff. The angles on his bullets are good and the j.Happy Trigger M is a great projectile to keep them from jumping and controlling the air space.
For the jumping “thing’s will be reset” when Morrigan lands part, I meant she’s going to touch the ground so she can repeat her nonsense of soul fist then jump up soul fist. That’s when you got to play patient and look for those small opening like that no matter how tight it might be. You can just jump assist and shoot M bullets to try to keep her on the ground. If she stays on the ground, play it right and try to keep her there will L or M trigger happy’s. How Deadpool locks it down? I just said it, assist and trigger happy and smart decisions.
How does he shut down Character/Missiles? The best example would be Dormammu/Doom. That I can say is one of the strongest characters with missiles and easily the truth. Filipino is always wrecking havoc with the team and you can’t deny it too, he freaking won EVO. It doesn’t matter how sloppy it was and there was mistakes, he still won out of hundreds of players. Filipino himself said Deadpool is the weapon to shutting down Dorm/Missiles. His bullets come out too quick and stop Doom from shooting missiles. Because of this, he won’t even get a chance to shoot his missiles and just takes free damage. This is why I said that Doom would never get his shine and that’s the same as in Morrigan/Doom. If Doom doesn’t get the chance to come out anymore, fighting Morrigan head on isn’t as bad and her keep away drops significantly.
Real zoners like Arthur and Hawkeye? I agree that both are great zoners and I would say that Hawkeye is also probably like Deadpool that can do great lockdown with proper judgment and patience. Arthur on the other hand is going to be way harder to shut down Morrigan but chances are WAY more slimmer for youngold dude. The difference here too is that Hawkeye is a good keep away character and he doesn’t do great at close game.
I agree with that Morrigan has done way better in tournaments and it shows in the results as well. I already said that once you shut down the Doom part of Morrigan, dealing with Morrigan is “easier.” It might still be hard but it still is easier when Doom can’t support in the back when he already is out of commission. I explained so much why now since you didn’t get why I said Doom is shut down but yes. The quote I said from Bum’s is still the best example, Morrigan is figured out but Morrigan/Doom isn’t. Keep Doom in check and Morrigan isn’t as hard to fight. Taking care of the team with Deadpool is “easy” it just gets easier fighting Morrigan alone which makes it “easy.”
The purpose of the move is to shut down opponent’s zoning at normal jump height and below.
It accomplishes this task quite well.
Wrong. Unibeam L and H have:
different startup
different active frames
different advantage on hit/block
different damage
different meter gain
different durability
So if all of those things combined don’t qualify Unibeam L and H as “different,” how can DoD L and M possibly be considered “different”?
Furthermore, your argument is necessarily self-defeating. There is no possible way you can arrive at “4” tracking projectiles for Strange; if DoD L and M count as two, then FoF with 3Y/2Y/1Y/1R would have to count as 4, putting the total at a minimum of 6. Q.E.D.
And last but not least, your nitpicking doesn’t seem to have any purpose. I say that Strange has 2 fullscreen tracking projectiles to harass zoners and you, the person who claims that Strange is not a good anti-zoner, insist that… he actually has 4? What possible point could you be trying to prove, other than extremely flimsy nitpicking of semantics?
EoA has slightly less than one screen of traveling range. A fullscreen EoA will whiff against a fullscreen opponent that normal jumps, or does anything to change its path from a straight line.
GoH is not a tracking projectile, period. The only projectile from GoH is the stationary explosions from a red GoH. FoF tracks; GoH does not.
Again, I marvel at your pointless nitpicking. Even if I agreed with you on DoD and GoH, what is your endgame here? You have done nothing to actually advance your argument.
Because FoF only works with 3 GoH, right?
How many zoners can punish an opponent at the far top portion of the playfield? Of those that can, how many can do so in a way that does not leave them wide open to punishment?
At this point, I am extremely interested in hearing you explain why you believe that Dormammu is anti-zoning. The weak explanations you have used to dismiss Strange apply even more harshly to Dorm, unless it is your position that Dorm’s 150k in extra health makes the difference.
Well, yes, it presumes that if your opponent has a meter to do their projectile super, you also have a meter to counter it. Since Strange has plenty of anti-zoning tools without meter, this is not a crazy requirement.
What you are describing is someone who is fishing with SoV instead of using it on reaction. When you use it on reaction to something that you see, this stuff doesn’t apply. Nevertheless, since SoV is definitely not going to whiff the point character, if you’re unsure as to whether or not you hit the assist, just don’t use your XF! The worst case scenario is that you landed a free super.
Let’s see if we can follow this logic:
I say Strange is good against zoners
you say his health is too low to be effective
I point out that the zoning characters he’s trying to kill also have low health
So let’s see, if both Strange and his zoner opponent will die in one combo, but Strange can instantly teleport to them from anywhere on the playfield, who is more likely to land a combo first?
And yes, you are correct in stating that I don’t play as Strange: I play against him on a regular basis, and I use a hardcore zoning team (Task/Hawkeye/Arthur). Strange/Dorm are the two characters in the game that I usually don’t even attempt to zone, because it’s simply a waste of time. I do attempt to zone other teleporters as a means of baiting out a teleport, but those two can bust up zoning without even having to use their teleports.
