Because 2AAA is not the actual combo. I use VSion and doing the actual combo would involve doing:
2A 2B 2C (This is where the actual combo starts) 623B j.B j.C jc j.B j.C iad j.C air throw
obviously 2AAA doesnt start combos for every character, but not every character has a huge window for cancelling low forward in 3s either. i use the akihas and sometimes nanaya. i mash with warc. for normal akiha, 2A2A2A 2C 5B5B jB jC jB jC air throw is like the easiest ‘legit’ combo you can do. for nanaya, im pretty sure you can do a few 2As in a row before you have to press 2B 2C 5C jB jC jB jC airthrow. i think its same thing with warc. well, actually i know, but i will now go test something i know is right so people wont call me names on the internet (my feelings are VEERRY EASILY HURT)`
EDIT: OKAY I TESTED IT LOL.
all im trying to say is, i can mash low jab (or a simple relatively safe blockstring if you want to nitpick) a few times, and during the time it takes for the low jab to combo into itself 2 or 3 times, i can decide whether i need to press more buttons to continue the combo, or if i should start doing something else like blocking. i cannot do the same off a low forward in 3s, i usually have to ‘predict’ if it hits or not. therefore, i think it is harder to hitconfirm for big damage in 3s than it is in fighters with the weakA mediumB fierceC button system. i accept the fact that people are different and some people are better at the former aspect of execution, but i still think its easier to “hit confirm” when you have more “hits” to confirm with. i dont get what the problem is.
anyways it feels like we’re arguing semantics here.
This right here.
I’ll say this for the last time.
The reason GG got popular and VF5 didn’t is because VF5 looks boring and GG doesn’t. Yes we all know VF5 is probably the most complex game in the world to learn, but it has absolutely no aesthetic appeal to it compared to GG. On top of that, GG has one of the greatest soundtracks ever for a fighting game. And one more thing, how is GG considered an anime game? There’s no anime for it. If it’s b/c it’s from japan then you can lump every japanese fighter with it b/c they all look anime.
:rock::rock::rock::rock::rock: you said it :rock::rock::rock::rock::rock:
The thing is, you’re arguing the fact that a super is harder to “hit-confirm” than a normal into another normal, while I’m arguing that the execution is higher (in combo-heavy games) to do each one. So, to put this into perspective, what’s easier? In terms of their respective games, they probably will deal about the same amount of damage to a character.
c.MK xx SA2
or
2A 2B 2C 623B j.B j.C jc j.B j.C iad j.C air throw
It’s obvious where I’m going with this.
vf5’s problem is multi-layered.
the fans of the game tout it as the deepst fighting game ever. this has become common thought, even in the hardcore fighting circles.
The game isn’t “deep” as much as it is “complicated”. i don’t mean compicated as in difficult to perform, but it is a game where a majority of the situations play out in rock paper scissors: if i attack, you sidestep and own me. if i throw, you can attack and own me. if i sidestep, either do a tracking move or throw. if i block, you throw or mixup. its either i hurt you or you hurt me, and people seriously overplay the “depth” of vf.
(i realize that a) there’s other aspects to the game, such as throw buffering, spacing, hit levels, “fuzzy guard” and that b) this is no different than alot of other games, so no reason in pointing it out… this is the game on its most basic of levels)
the game isn’t simple, but its far from “the deepest fighting game ever”. just because the system gives every tactic a counter tactic doesn’t make it a insanely deep. just because there’s a tutorial that teaches tech roll throw buffer safe blocking doesn’t mean this game is an execution beast. i know there’s alot of pride swelling whenever you make this claim, because everyone wants to be able to play the deepest, widest, most skilled, best-player-always-wins game, but c’mon…
this in turn puts a label on vf that hurts itself in the long run. people will shout from mountain tops about how “deep” the game is… but in turn they put off a large part of thier audience. the labels says its not a 3-d fighter for casual players, unless vf is your “thing”. the game succeeds on a moderate level when people understand how the game works and can see results, but its true competitive side is so dismel and spread out that high level competition for vf falls to the wayside. so even if the moderate level players want to get hardcore, they really can’t. online can only compensate for so much. and new players are so intimidated, the game doesn’t have a large audience to graduate from new to moderate.
so much of the game is already off putting to the onlooking newbie. low floating juggles, ring-outs, low jab-fest, difficult throw system, rps style gameplay… there’s alot of people who can mix and match thier dislikes in the system to form an opinion against liking the game. and then you only have your moderate audience paired with your typical vg reviewer scaring off new people with “deepest, greatest, most technical…” and an elite level that can only pull from a small group of players in local areas… of course the game isn’t going to be a success. you’re missing your bottom and top level, and you create this secluded fanbase that will say some outlandish shit to get thier game noticed, which just creates this circle of fail.
don’t get me wrong; i don’t dislike the game. i’m one of the people who won’t invest time in it because its install base is so low. i can’t get better at a fighting game if there’s no one to play. i dislike a bunch of things on a technical level, and i understand the game isn’t as “deep” as your forum superhero would make it appear, but the game fails on a different level.
I don’t think that’s it
because Tekken is pretty popular over here, and one hit into long combo is alot worse in that. Especially with there being no way to escape like in Arcana and Guilty, and ESPECIALLY when they do like 60%.(I also know I’m overgeneralizing.)
I think it has more to do with them being new, and relatively unknown/hard to find.
I mean it’s not like people aren’t playing the games. It’s just that their communities are relatively small compared to the communities that have been built up for decades, which is to be expected.
I mean guilty gear, the most accessible of these fighters at the moment, has a pretty healthy US following.
It’s called deep, because it’s deeper than it’s 3D counterparts T6 and SCIV.
Combos are combos, more efficent to kill your opponent which is what you’re supposed to be doing. But if you look at the other extreme you get ST and Smash. Spamming stuff left and right until they make a mistake OR get bored and try a meaningless combo for some style points. But I guess the reason combos starting getting popular was characters with no projectiles usually lost against characters with projectiles. So a big rushdown combo heavy character would be balanced out with a character able to fight from full screen. If the projectile character fails to keep the rushdown character away the proper punishment would be some big long damaging combo. So I do think some variety in character design is necessary for a fighter to be more accepted.
I do like Arcana Heart for the fact that there is no tier-list really (well at least for Full! anyway). You can’t necessarily tier whore or pick Fiona/Yoriko and be looked at as crazy/stupid/scrub. I respect that kind of balance unlike Capcom titles and GG. MBAC not too sure about, but I’m pretty sure it’s just as bad as GG at least. So I think Arcana Heart is a little bit more of a friendly game to pick up since you can pick who you like and play it on par with everyone else in theory. Everyone goes through the I’m not picking top-tier phase for fighters because I like this character.
Lol
I’ve always taken the word “depth” to mean the amount of options available in the game. Thus much more to use, learn and take into account while playing
but that said, I’ve always found it dumb when people get into arguments about what game is deeper, or throw it out often enough to where it loses meaning
So I wouldn’t get too worked up over people saying “VF5(or any game) is the deepest game ever!!” because chances are they have no idea what they’re talking about.
Well, shoot: What’s wrong with Capcom Fighting Jam?
Also, to answer the original post, SNK games don’t take off in America in general.
i see what youre saying but
you need meter to do SA2. you can do the combo below anytime you land a low jab. i think low jabs are easier to land in MB than low forwards in 3s, but for the sake of argument lets say they land with the same frequency. sometimes you will only get “low forward damage” in 3s unless the only time you do that move is when you have meter…which i dont think actually happens in 3s but i could be wrong. You can get combo damage (or “almost combo damage” if you mess up) pretty much anytime you land a low jab. it comes down to how “hard” it is to do the aircombo from it.
i dont know how much damage your combo does so ignore this if it does like half life damage, but with warc i can do 2A 2B 2C 5C jBB jC jBB jC airthrow for 3555 damage on akiha and 4300 or 4100 on red akiha. its like 100 less damage or so if i leave out the 5C. i think thats respectable damage for the most basic, easiest combo. it happens every time i land a 2A (in actual gameplay not training mode lololol), and my execution SUCKS. EVEN IF I FUCK UP (which would be like not doing the super from c.MK), i get around 3000 damage, which is a lot more comparatively than “low forward damage.” learning to hitconfirm a super has to be at least as hard as learning to execute a basic combo, since i cant hitconfirm for shit.
imo after you have committed everything you need to muscle memory all that really matters is getting in that first hit and following up. thats why i said the stuff about hitconfirming 2A vs c.MK.
anyways we could probably go back and forth for pages but i dont think anyone else cares so im just going to stop. i appreciate you actually typing out an argument instead of saying “your stupid lol”.
The problem is when you get that much insane damage off a jab, the other moves which are harder to land become less important by comparison. That’s one reason VF is so balanced- most characters have their risk-reward homogenized, though some lean to low risk/reward and some to high risk/reward. There aren’t high reward/low risk chars like in many other fighters.
I was actually specifically talking about jojo’s there, and not melty blood or any other games in particular, though it definitely applies to other games, but I definitely didn’t make that clear in my last post. I played Rival Schools for all of an hour before I got sick of seeing the same combos out of every hit over and over again.
Jojos especially has some VERY long combos which are actually possible in a match. [media=youtube]rMkV8woohqs&feature=related[/media]
Jotaro gets hit with c.lax2 at about 1:31, and dies to the same combo at 1:52, just over 20 seconds. Given, thats an extremely long and fairly difficult combo (based on him missing the ender for it at least 2 other times). And quite frankly, its not that interesting of a combo to watch. About half of it is the result of him mashing a few buttons for a while.
as far as i remember the game is pointed as one of the most balanced wich doesnt mean one of the most deepest, putting that aside i have to agree with some points that you posted, one of the problems of the game is the lack of audience and competition (i dont know if its because the elitist circle problem that you mention) wich turns off a newcomer
you failed so hard, specially in the second part of your post :shake:
well, let me first say, the vf community isn’t elitist. they are actually very helpful. most of the times the shout the name of vf from the top of thier barns is because they want other people to get into it. but its a very roundabout way of getting people to play. saying “this game is so deep it will leave you mindfucked for days” isn’t the best way of getting people lined up to play your game.
as for vf being deeper than sc4 or t6, i’d say either of the games can be played incredibly dumb or incredibly smart. you can get away with doing dumb things in either games and find success. i’m not trying to start a flame war, but saying its deep because its deeper than another game is like saying dat phan is a brilliant comedian because he’s better than dane cook.
Then would it be better to say VF is so easy, even a scrub can play like a pro? Mash some buttons?
i wasnt trying to say that the vf community was elitist or anything like that, maybe i wasnt very clear, but thanx for the correction, i agree with you that in fact if the community says that the game is to deep and complex they wouldnt atract the casual players, specially if they arent motivated enough to spent their time in a game that they dont know and maybe they wouldn’t be rewared for the time that they spent on it, as for the other part, sadly this is very common in the fighting games communities in general, the people will always say that their favorite game is more complex deepest or better over the other games because they are more like fanboys
no, but it would be better if they point the good parts that the game has, and not try to exagerate the quality of the game (even if this is true)
your forgetting that the rebeat penalty applies to cancelling As into itself too, in order to reduce the reward for the really long hitconfirming window. besides that, who are you going to open up with 2AAAA anyway. its not even considered something good to do on block (since theres no mixup in there), and nobody’s getting hit by it raw unless they’re not really paying attention to the match or what your doing (eg. a bad player). it seems like you have complaints about the absolute lowest level of gameplay, when you haven’t seem to have referred to any real bs from high level matches. what’s important in higher levels of gameplay is using attack strings that have some combination of suki/baits/mixups or other mindgames in them, and THEN hitconfirming when they make a mistake. your making it seem like its soooo free with 2AAAA when its not. especially considering the number of universal and character specific defensive options a defender has.
I’m not gonna act like I’m a VF Expert and I quit because of some horribly flawed game mechanic. I played for about a month or two and REALLY tried to get into it. I liked it at first, but the more I got into it, the more bored and frustrated I became. When I first got into training mode in VF5 and I looked at my command list, I just see this giant ass list of like 200 moves, and I thought to myself “So what do I do? Are most of these here for flavor or should I actually know most of them?”
And meanwhile (and I hope I don’t sound like a dumb noob when I say this) ALL OF THE CHARACTERS IN VF ARE BORING AND THE SAME. I immediately gravitated toward Wolf and Akira when I first played because they look the most interesting and they have pretty dramatic moves (Akira’s rush punch and Wolf’s grabs in general). Besides those characters, they all seem like boring 3D Fighter templates with names and faces pasted on them. Lei-Fei, Kage, Pai Chan, Lau Chan, Jacky, Sarah…they’re all the fucking same to me.
Once again, I’m sure at high level play, the differences are countless, but to me it seems like they’re all the same character with slightly different values for attack startup, frame advantage, and damage. I get the feeling that there’s a SHITLOAD of homogenization and that the balance is mostly created by the Super-Turtle option selects that everyone shares.