The Vortex Thread

could someone point me towards finding the correct positioning and timing to beat out shoryus with demon flip grab? thanks.

I don’t think the grab will ever beat out srk…dive kick is what you want to do.

No, well timed df grabs can catch reversal srks. I never tried it personally, so I cant really comment, but it is possible.

Question to Loltima’s vid

Hey,

Loltima, or somebody, I’ve tried learning the vortex, I’m pretty new to Akuma when it comes to indepth practice, so:
I can do most aspects of the vortex, but practicing resets just don’t click with me.
In loltimas vid, it seems he can deside whatever reset option he like and it will reset as intended, over and over again. I can’t seem to figure out the timing for resets to do it consistently, what’s the trick or how should I practice it?
I’ve tried so many different timed hits, tried 10 x Lp, 10 x Hp etc., starting with same combo, it just seems random if I do the reset or not. Sometimes it looks like the attack just goes through the opponent and I try to do the excact same thing if I just succeded a reset.

Help!

the timing is different for every reset (ie. hp has a different timing than lp). Other than that it’s just practice, there is no real “trick” to it

Ok, then let me ask in another way:
Are the resets available specific to what combo you do before it? E.i, can you only do lp-reset after x-combo etc.
I read the thread about resets, saying which one is easy, best etc, but it’s all the same to me

its just a matter of practice, you can reset from a lp after anything there is not stipulation of when you can or cant cancel a lp or hp. you can do it at anytime, doesn?t have to be during a combo.

Thx, I expected that, guess I just need more work put into it :crybaby:

Wow, DJMOJO, that statement you made was what I was looking for! I found the timing and have been practicing all night, I finally got the last aspect of the vortex working for me.

Now I can answer my own question (sry, probably posted somewhere, and old news to some): the timing can be practiced by doing the crouching resets, (c.lp, c.mk i.e). Do a c.lk, tatsu (sends opponent hanging) and then pull down, ready for the i.e c.lp. When Akuma lands he will stand for a frame, then go to crouching. On the crouching frame, hit the lp. That’s it.
You’ll see a short blink of his crouching position, before you would press lp.
It’s the same timing for all attacks. Some attacks will wiff (like c.lk), if you pushed opp too far away before landing the lk.tatsu (like c.lk, c.lp, c.mp xx tatsu)
When doing standing resets, just wait that extra frame like if Akuma went to crouching, and the attack will land.
Bonus: Same timing for landing juggle srk, I no longer have to mash it to get it 100%! At last!

Yay! I’ve done it over and over, it works. Thanks for posting what I needed to know to figure it out!

Next step: more hitconfirm practice, it’s a bitch

PS: Why couldn’t I find this about the timing elsewhere? Pointers please

Glad i could help. just practice good combos and try to stay away from resets as a regular part of your game (dont get me wrong im not saying dont use them, im just saying use them sparingly.) good combos to work on are fs.HK>lp>lk.tatsu>bnb and mp>mp>hado>ex cancle>hp>lk. tatsu>bnb those are good combos to be able to pull off real fast.

Yeah, I read that about using resets sparringly, but I was going crazy about the timing :xeye:

I have some difficulties in landing hp>tatsu, especially after a FADC. Guess that’ll be a good one to practice then.

Thanks again
Cheers

Thanks loltima, this was a great read.

One thing I have to ask is, have you tried focus (kara) dashing after the forward grab instead? One of the easiest ways to time any jump in is to dash/backdash or jump. These movements are almost always guaranteed to come out at the right time (more buffer leniency than moves) and will always give you accurate results.

Grab -> focus dash -> HK Demon flip -> whiff palm / demon sweep / delayed dive kick
Here are the inputs:
grab -> 6, MP+MK, 6 -> 23+K…

(I omit the 6 from demon flip because its easier to use the forward input from the dash)

Depending on how fast you cancel the focus into the forward dash determines how far you will move forward. Also if you hold the focus for too long, (like 4 or more frames) the kara distance disappears and akuma will either dash with either equal or less distance than normally dashing. This is due to his animation throughout the focus: it starts off as an instant kara forward (this is why it sucks in footsies and lariat) before he leans back while charging for lv 2 and 3.

  • if you use palm, you will whiff and cross over (works on everyone, timing is harder on fatter characters). From here I like to meaty cr.hp, hadou since its a true block string and only -4 frames disadvantage, it leaves you in the sweet spot where standing still avoids sweeps, but also great rewards with FADC -> tatsu combo on hitconfirm. The distance is identical to (all block) crossup j.mk, cr.hp, hadou
  • The demon kick and sweep however will not cross up and offers the same options as jumping in normally. Delay the dive kick fairly late to keep the possibility of (whiff) palm cross up fresh in your opponents minds.

Coming straight from third strike, I’ll be honest. I’m not a fan of the cross up tatsu; its way too “go with the flow” than using frame-accurate calculated setups. You might as well try honing your demon flip timing to safejump with the dive kick >.>

This setup is much more familiar to me, the whiff causing me to cross up is very similar to what you can do in third strike. I also argue that - while on the surface it may look different - this is very much similar to the exploding heart setup, just flipped backwards.

  • Instead of cross up tatsu you have delayed demon flip dive kick or sweep
  • demon palm (whiff) cross up gives you about… at most 6 frames before you opponent wakes up (I can tell because immediate close hp whiffs). You can even demon flip again upon landing (2321+kick for auto-correct while crossing up, but a really fast demon flip input works too) which causes ALL reversal uppercut-type move, including the lame wide-hitbox cannon spike, to whiff. If they did HP or EX srk, you have enough time to Ultra their ass after landing from the 2nd demon flip. Note: HK and MK demon flips are recommended for this shinanigan, lk flip always loses to reversal lp.srk. even an lp.TU! exception is on cammy, her lk.cannon spike moves her way too foward to counter the lk.Demonflip

You may argue that dive kick can be blocked low, so the sweep and the kick are pretty much the same thing. Yes, this is true to some degree, but crossup tatsu can be blocked crouching too! I’m trying to compare the two since they can both start from the same grab. The only real drawback I see is in the corner. This setup is better used midscreen, where crossing up doesn’t really matter. If the grab ends up cornering you opponent, you have much better linear options and should save the bag’o’tricks for later.

Finally, even if you failed the kara dash and don’t cross up, you can still palm (whiff) and land in time to block reversal srks or immediately switch over to the original exploding heart followups. I like this feature of the setup, what better way is there to confuse the opponent than to confuse even yourself?! Very much like an ambiguous crossup lk. However If you failed the kara dash to such a stupid degree you wont even dash, instead you will whiff a focus lvl 1 from full screen away. Instant noob status, but id rather “strategically” whiff a focus from full screen than jump in with terrible timing. (read: noob friendly! :tup:)

  • btw. you can KKK teleport instead of HK demon flip for nearly the same effect… just a little more recovery. Great if you want to go for a super demon.

Edit: Hoping for some way any of these setups can be incorporated into resets.

  • trying demonflip throw to counter reversal srk. It works fairly well after tatsu, ©hp, but I cant tell if its distance dependent or timing dependent
  • do i have to time my demon flip cancel late AND throw late? or a combination of early and late? Regardless, the odds are stacked against your favour; its like having to win a lottery twice before getting your prize.

Exploding heart technique in first post should be updated to include it’s effect vs. the cast. There’s another technique using Throw>S.HK>HK Demon Flip Dive Kick which I saw Tokido first using, and it’s very useful where two dashes MK Demon Flip Dive Kick fails.

vs. Honda: stuffs LP (I think) and EX headbutt, normal and EX buttsmash passes harmlessly, also makes ultra and super whiff.

vs. Dhalsim: Better option to use since it stuffs his upwards yoga flame which trades hit using two dashes, and doing it with option select HK hurricane kick will take care of teleports. It should also be able to stuff backdashes, but if fails will simply OS to HK hurricane kick.

More to come as I keep testing.

almost none of this is true

x-up tatsu vs crouching vega (claw)… is it posible? i swear i must have tried it for like 10 mins and i dont think i hit him once. this was probably covered earlyer but i didnt see anything on it.

also @west. lol pwnt

Is there really any difference in the throw range between the 4 demon flip versions? (lk, mk, hk, ex)

Check the notes in the frame data table: http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Akuma_(SFIV)

Incorrect wiki information??

Also, I wasn’t sure where to post this, since I didn’t want to create a whole new thread and the DF throw is a pretty important aspect of the vortex, I just thought it would be alright to post in this thread.

good idea not to make a new thread and definitely yes the ranges work. try doing a reset in the corner with LK demonflip>grab. it will miss on a lot of chars besides sagat and maybe some others. the ex grab works on those chars

Yes, the ranges on the demonflip throw are a bane to my existence. If you encounter a throw attempt and your throw mysteriously misses, this could be the case.

vs. Sagat

I been playing my friend alot lately and he is a low-level Sagat so I get to practice loop.
try to loopp a few times then lp xx HK demonflip palm whiff> crouch tech and start the loop all over again
or u can do MK demonflip to grab or w.e:zzz:

Where is the vortex most vulnerable? How do you escape it or counter it?

My character has a 5 frame DP and 3 frame cr. jab, cr. short, and jab. I read through the first 4-5 pages but I couldn’t find anything.