The issue with modern fighting game stories is that they all chase that NRS style cinematic story when most don’t have the budget or ability to pull it off well. Of course each one makes their own mistakes (Tekken 7 ignoring half of its roster, SF5 making several narrative mistakes etc) but I think for the most part they all try and reach for something that’s just too far above their station. It’s why I prefer the stories of Alpha and 3, because they tell their narrative on a much smaller scale which fits better with the type of game they are. I do like 5’s character stories though, I’d like that format to come back for future games.
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His point is that story should be revealed through VS mode interactions rather than a cinematic style story. While I do absolutely love those interactions and he makes a great point about how Lowain solves most of the problems related to being canonically weak, people do in fact process story better when it’s presented as “here’s the story stuff” than having to pick up on Easter eggs during the hustle and bustle of regular gameplay.
The “fight” in fighting games does have the problem of doing relatively little to advance the story until the obligatory post-fight cutscene plays. To be fair, MOST gaming genres have this problem (ex. Audio logs in FPS titles), but fighting games specifically get the stigma because you could literally remove the fighting entirely and the story could still work (ex: Guilty Gear Xrd).
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Yeah, the entire “self-contained narrative” part of that video was just stupid…
No, dude. Individual multiplayer matches are not a fucking story.
Asura’s Wrath I think is one of the best examples of a game that turns it’s actual playable fight sequences into the story.
Which it mostly does via “little bit of fighting, lotta quicktime events, little more fighting, etc.”
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Does this mean Doraemon canonically exists in the Street Fighter universe? O.O
Damn, he could have fought Pac-Man in Street Fighter x Tekken.
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The wait for season 5 news is killing me. Can’t wait to see glorious thick big titty Rose Viper and Elena and Oros balls.
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Do we have any idea of when to hazard a guess as to when the announcement (s) could drop?
The wait is killing me too, I want someone to dash my hope that Dan is coming because it seems like literally no one cares about him but me (the Dan lore obsessive).
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You can bet balls their previous plan was to at least show something 2 August (iirc) wich was Evo finale
Now my wish was of course see Season V as soon as possible, even sooner than evo date… But tbh i fear this evo bullshit situation just made the wait longer
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Just finished watching it.
I like that he cited some important things too. I don’t agree as a whole.
I remembered we had a very recent discussion story mode with @DarthEnder and @Magegg. Since this is also discuss multiple time.
I like that he points out the statistics. which already says and proves why those that said NRS is doing things right already proves the point is invalid.
I really like also that he pointed out the flaw on Jin change, people would defend the change to be rational because of the story but it’s a obvious excuse not something that makes it reasonable. SNK did it better with Kyo changing move-set because it was gradual so it’s more like an evolution not something that is an instant then just put some excuse then claim it as backstory behind the change.
It’s good that he also good that he addressed the issue on killing characters and why it is a terrible idea in a fighting game by using an example from blazblue. Nash would be a good example also later on if he comeback as a skeleton, zombie or another Frankenstein version.
He talks about framing yet he didn’t mentioned DBFZ Dramatic finish which actually page homage to the narrative history and interaction of the character. He didn’t even mentioned Fatal blows in the recent MKs, and also didn’t point out how characters animation that conveys narrative on personality were present way back sprite based fighters from SNK along with Darkstalkers and even Pocket Fighters.
I don’t agree with him on saying that they need It’s bad for Tekken 7 to left out several characters out of the narrative story because it’s better. Here’s Why?
We got characters that are poorly implemented there like
It’s only Birdie that had a better inclusion along the least valuable casting, while the other were forced. It had strong akin to some of the original SFA art than the other alpha ova and interesting encounters too but has tons of wasted potential in terms of other characters involve in the OVA.
and like this three in that movie, just for the sake of squeezing everyone to be involved.
The guy did mentioned about ignoring character existence in Tekken which he believed to wrong, He got it wrong in Tekken about existence, It’s more of an absence.
Because in general story is okay absence, rather than just being thrown there and being something out of character or doing bunch of nonsense just for the sake of presence. What’s important is the sense of that character involvement. A character just being there without any valid sense it’s like the character forced to fit in the event.
About the versus mode thing, I like what he is trying to say there but it’s not something that replaces general story mode or individual story. I felt his trying to used a different logic which doesn’t worked, It’s like his trying to sound one on the topic I have watched before but thats more on a different area so it’s not the solution.
I don’t agree also on what he said about with blazblue, I don’t think it is something good to be in playing a fighting game story.
and also what he is saying about versus mode having a story in what he tries to describe is already been done years ago in another capcom game.
Max did it more better and I agree with him in this matter.
Agree with what @DarthEnder pointed out on Asura which also did well in the some encounters, but Tekken 7 was the better on implementing it and while NRS games had the better phasing than anyone else.
Here’s my personal thoughts on the subject
All of those narrative trying to develop decent fighting games stories, It’s the Juri OVA are the ones that really worked atleast to convey a decent fighting game general story narrative that it even beat SFV cinematic mode in terms of sense, because it had a sense of focus and pay homage to the character in-game.
Another common problem is also about playing it for hours lengthy just to see a fragment of information and people wouldn’t bother picking it again in a week or even months. A waste of resources. So having a few cast and few cut scene but meaningful and had sense to the settings is better like the example with the Juri OVA with NPC and few playable characters.
This could even worked okay by just adding NPC dolls, then had Guile, Chun Li, Cammy and Juri being playable after and before each fight with some cut scene from the ova.
I also had wrote something in the past how to fix another problem this was during the early days of before season 2 and along season 2 of SFV, but truly I understand that it still doesn’t correct the problem because the problem encountered in a fighting game general story is more on narrative aspect that the traditional writing on how movies is done doesn’t worked in a fighting game like SF.
People comes into the idea thinking that…
1.) …a reboot actual magically fix everything up to make a better narrative.
why it doesn’t worked: because the same faults are always to happen. I’ll address this bellow.
2.) …a huge budget would fix this.
why it doesn’t worked: because it doesn’t . I’ll address this bellow.
3.) …to simply just hiring a writer which they believe automatically fix stuff. I have address this in the recent previous and will address this bellow again
For me it’s knowing the priorities and constraints on writing it and what the possible consequences that it can affect the game. I don’t believe in sayings but it’s true that limitation breeds creativity.
We can throw tons of writing techniques to make a specific SF story narrative appealing and satisfying for the ever-changing crowd, like tons of plot twist and jaw dropping moments but it doesn’t guarantee coherence to the what is established in the past and what would be done in the future. For me what makes a better SF general story is making it complimentary to what is established and something that the future general story can pick up to connect easily, how by avoiding complicated conclusion.
An artist can throws tons of references to justify and forced to change everything but an artist that works with the restriction and limitation are the most amazing and the most historical. It’s more of the passion than the appeal and prestige.
What makes a fans tic… It’s not the storymode it’s what’s happening with that character. It’s about individuality.
For example is @Daemos that is okay with him for multiple stories having a plot centered on either on of the following…
1.) Ryu destroying Bison multiple times
2.) or protoganist character beating Bison multiple time or
3.) Ryu or a new protagonist beating someone that Bison stole a body and controlled.
Basically it’s a mix or swap of those things…
So in conclusion Daemos doesn’t believe that what makes a decent story is what he wants or it’s not about Bison and some protagonist fighting to each other that makes a decent story for Daemos. It’s clear that the goal is just for Bison being in a the spotlight or related to the character in the spotlight.
What he wants and really cared about is making Bison the ultimate power that he even wants the character to be a demon.
What really make fans tic are not movie like scripts because it doesn’t worked on a fighting game structure unless it is a one shot and it is a continuous franchised because fighting games isn’t about getting a blockbuster like entertainment script. What make a fan happy is simply just make the story invested to the character a to more personal and individual like how individual story mode does in SFV, not for a general story because a general story is more on the whole settings.
We can see this in some recent comment saying atleast their favorable characters had a possibility to be reserve as cast for SF6 or a future SF title.
This is also what max said also in his video like he didn’t sometimes care about the hulk…
What makes them tic is by making the characters they are a fan with in a better position or at least floating for the next title or a possible future title.
Or what certain types of audience is just interested with just certain characters, it doesn’t mean that they play it so they want to know their backstory, sometimes they are just interested for the character being either new or interesting. So this doesn’t applied so much to the already known characters
And what makes storymode relevant is not the competitive scene but the casual crowd, this type of audience is saying that story is necessary so that they get to know/familiar to the character or to get invested on it. Right? So the spotlight of the story should not be all about the old same protagonist and same old antagonist as always, another version of a story of them clashing but told in a different way (Rashid is a good example). Ryu can be a side character nowadays but should still remain as the poster boy while the protagonist spot every game can be rotating to other characters either new and old just to tell another story. Like I will mentioned below in How do we introduce new fighting game general stories?.
What makes fighting game characters relevant in a fighting game narrative is their reason to be involved or the reason they are fighting if not being part of a major event. It ends to character motivation which is the important part because it about them being available in the game or it’s future titles,
So here are the things that is important that a writer should be cautious with characters in a fighting game
- Character preservation.
- Character motivation.
- Character flexibility/availability.
I have mentioned and address this long ago and many times, Yet it clearly hampers a typical movie writer because it’s all about restriction not appeal, especially if it would be terrible for someone expecting putting everyone in the the game to be involved in the story. The story also is not focus on appeal and conclusion it’s more about settings for characters and also it needs to be complimentary not just for the current settings but also to the previous and future installment.
Why are those the important? for some will questioned… Why? the answers is simple because character > appealing stories in a fighting game.
Those that I have mentioned is where a writer should worked around not by throwing some trendy narrative that aim either to caught someone by surprised like plot twist and appeal. People that expect stories noways is not expecting generic story progression in Hollywood like movies that they are the critics that hates the plot armor on popular and pop culture characters, which contradicts the essentials importance in a narrative for a fighting game.
… and those people that claims to welcome it that are commonly okay of killing those characters with plot armor for the sake of plot twist for the sake of a better story like holy-wood, is only okay as long it’s not their favorite character.
It’s a fighting Game not a story driven game. even Final Fantasy cut a lot in the past that every cid isn’t the same cid in the newer game. People would say that I am wrong and would tell that HOW ABOUT DISSIDIA…. lol this is the same people that believe NRS stories proves that it can worked because of big budget and writers but not looking it what made it worked in the first place after the time travel.
Take note the guy in the other video praise the battle of Lui kang and Raiden with Shao Khan but it doesn’t make that MK story better.
I have said this before. It’s either they(NRS) overused something similar to time travel or traveling to different dimensions and parallel to justify other things along with a famous tv tropes in like healing vat and other revival sorcery that either revive those characters into a meh version of him.
Most of the people in the years that this topic is discuss countless times would like to point out NRS or Reboot but dislike the idea of time travel and parallel dimension, same thing on reviving a dead character without the detail how they returned. Isn’t that contradicting and ironic… If you would think about it Samsho could even worked better with writers because of the elements present in it’s world building that makes it more flexible compare to SF.
Juri OVA worked atleast because it had sense with the casting and the narrative that ties in-game. It’s not an crowd appealing story and trendy compare to the other stories that is mostly favored by the crowd but it made sense. It would even be an obscure SF OVA as the years gone by but it is the most that did things in-terms of narrative is right.
People expecting a that a big budget in a proper fighting games general story to make it more about appealing and have surprises like having exciting plot twist is likely to feel huge disappointments. Tons of disappointments.
Plot twist, Shock value and other things we expect in a Hollywood like movies isn’t what a proper general story in a fighting game is supposed to convey, It’s basically a backstory of the settings for a certain group of characters in that fighting game, So it’s already meant to expect to be generic and sometimes average which is boring to some, because it’s not about plot twist like shock value and surprises. Take note that Injustice isn’t the typical DC origin stories or coherent to the justice league source material, So it is more flexible.
The general story for a fighting game should not focus about increasing power level of both main antagonist and poster boy protagonist… (This is coming from a Ryu Fan, more than words that also collects ton of his merchandise) Why? because it creates problems that breaks the feel of how a fighting game is meant to be played. How? It creates a illogical perspective in multiplayer in a way, It ruins the individual clashes in multiplayer experience because it distance some characters to each other in terms of narrative sense.
Everyone needs to be in a certain level to avoid increasing power level to absurd stuff like anime type narrative like DB because this is a fighting game that everyone in-game needs to feel that every possible encounter had a chance on each other in-game encounter than captivating an audience. Raising the power ceiling of the protagonist is also means the need to raise the power level of the antagonist, vice versa and this is why it is terrible for a fighting game.
Learning new techniques is better as character development than having a power-up that is to raise the power ceiling for certain antagonist and protagonist that would likely leave out the rest. It makes the rest of the character irrelevant. This can also bring a long term consequences that doesn’t just affect the current setting of the game but also for the future titles. It would create more inconsistency and division, because it distance the protagonist and the antagonist to the rest of the cast. which isn’t good to a fighting game experience. It’s like the pairing of MK to DC even making them in the narrative to be equal it still doesn’t worked.
Fighting game general stories also should even be written like it was meant to be a huge continuous franchise at conflict can have a resolution that is always open for possibility that those current characters it should be complimentary from both past and future settings of other fighting games under that franchise. So it’s not something like Hollywood script do.
How do we introduce new fighting game general stories?
Like I said also before and mentioned also above
It’s better that every game general story is more on focus on a new protagonist or rotate to somebody else that is already a previous character and then dealing with alternating new antagonist or rotate to a previous antagonist sent or related to either shadaloo or the secret society. KOF did this right in the NEST Saga.
For an example: For SSF4 having Abel and Guile being the protagonist and their investigastion would lead them to an overpowered version of Seth, then next is Juri in USF4 as the main villain while Chun li or Cammy in their investigation gets the spotlight as the main protagonist of that story. It would even not feel bad if Viper had been a default over powered boss for SF4 while making Ken as the spotlight protagonist of the story to rescue her kidnap wife. if the game was planned to be a three title in a saga like NEST in KOF. Something that also Arcsys did with Ino.
This is a new and fresh take on stories in SF It’s like a more broad version of arcade mode that the stories is more personal but multiple people are involved and it isn’t just another stopping the bigboss from destroying the world or conquering it. Something like Seth, Viper and Juri something dangerous but not the middle part of a whole huge scenario playing out. Something like NEST bosses was.
So is SFV story still in a decent narrative and better position compare to others?
The answer is absolutely yes. Why? because the story isn’t as out of this world that introduced complicated narrative tools like what MK, GGX and even were KOF is right now. We don’t need those narrative stuff like time travel and parallel dimensions.
As long those things are avoided along with deaths they can still make good general FG stories but they should be more careful and understand that they are making stories that have a priority on fighting game characters and their identity than appealing to the ever-changing trends with a certain crowd that bandwagons into.
So can future SF titles still can do decent general story? I mean general story not individual story
The answer is also absolutely yes. then how? by being doing things more cautious.
1.) They should pick characters that would be relevant to the major event which is the plot of the general story. Avoid putting characters just to diversify the cast or just putting characters because they are popular and trendy.
2.) A decent general story doesn’t need everyone in the game to participate on it or do a cameo for the sake of appearance. This is a common mistake in many fighting game based movies.
3.) Avoid pleasing curiosity from the what if and should if thoughts of the ever-changing crowds of fans wants to see in a character be in a different situation that can re-write the whole character in a very unlikely and complicated situation. Characters in a fighting game should stay relevant, reserve and available for a possible appearance in the future. Trends are ever changing like that most of the other fans bandwagon with it. Not that are requesting for change are fans of the characters some were just wants things change for the sake of change and curiosity.
4.) Avoid trying to please this crowd with trendy request which is… “lets replace this character with his apprentice or lets introduce the sons and daughters as the new character and replace this character. they need to retire or be killed and replace by sons and daughter or apprentice” This trendy kind of request isn’t really into SF it’s just another variation of wanting to see something new or wanting a new character, or curious about another what if scenario. We had tons of new generation characters already that are likely falls on a new era characters. It’s obvious that they just want the other character to retire and be replace with a possibility that it might be close to his/her taste.
Imagine trying to please the ever-changing crowd in 3.) and 4.) combined with the fast forward timeline for every the title in every game it’s like after 3 or 4 titles the SF brand would lose it’s identity because the characters mostly new and the other are aged. Those thing are irreversible even it is reboot later because it already creates an expectation and others fans would already attached to it so it’s more complication and confusion.
It’s not stagnation like this kind of ever changing crowd would say that demand radical change. It’s more of street fighter being a brand and avoid the mistakes that mostly done by popular various media in the 90s that tries to re-imagined a future that they would soon ignore and treat as separate parallel or simple ignored and never talked about it again. There is nothing wrong keeping the iconic ideas in a street fighter which is more than a video game but pop-culture symbol of an era in video games and a revolution in the fighting game genre. If people want new stories then have new stories and new characters in the spotlight or had a new story based on a different character that wasn’t the spotlight in previous. Rotation and shifting protagonist is also bring new to the table if the conflict is different from the previous.
Not all change is improvement and chasing the ever-changing trends is a terrible idea. Innovation in a fighting game is not by changing the iconic representation and impression. Fighting game is more on mechanics and street fighter is more on it’s brand identity. SF is more like to Mario that also revolutionize the platforming genre.
Imagine reinventing Mario to a skinny italian kid because of trendy anime reference to reach out for a certain crowd then do it again after 10 years with a newer crowd and again and again? Sonic had been also it this mess. Ryu is more than Kazuya, Liu Kang, Akira Yuki, Ryo and Kyo. Ryu is an a pop culture revolution like Mario. His not just another fighting game protagonist, He is not also just another iconic fighting game character, His even more than just a nostalgia like Terry, his more than a poster boy and a brand mascot like Sonic. He is the Mario equivalent of Fighting Games.
So whats the next SF general story direction should be?
It is better that the next general story is more on simply filling the gap of the absence of old SF along with the new from SFV and SF4 to have a narrative to be told within SF3 timeline or having a next game narrative set with-in the timeline of SF3 while having mix of the cast from both old and new that weren’t present in SF3. The story simpler that avoid it conflicting with what SF3 established. The only problem with SF3 is because the existence of other characters are ignored as they weren’t the best and major important characters in the recent plot of SF5 and SF4. So making an event entirely involved those characters recurring within SF3 timeline solves it.
So it does explain the absence and presence of other recurring characters in the future titles beyond SF3 timeline. Slow and gradual transition is better than the typical fast forward that many are expecting and wanting most of those that were wanting what to see beyond SF3 are either curious on what happened to some characters after many years, while some are just being tired on the repetitive story of being Bison as the main villain because they hated another shadaloo story.
So what we had bring into points
- The protagonist doesn’t always need always the spotlight to the poster boy
- The protagonist doesn’t always need be always a new character. Rotation of a protagonist from either from old establish characters is great too
- The antagonist doesn’t always need to be the big boss and the head of the organization.
- The FG stories doesn’t need to be always centered to world domination.
- The FG stories need to be gradual in progression to avoid unnecessary complication.
- The FG stories doesn’t need everyone to be involve.
- The FG stories needs to be complimentary to the settings of both past and future titles.
- The FG stories doesn’t always need to be another variant story of shadaloo raid or an evil organization raid.
- The FG stories priority isn’t about deaths and conclusion but the opposite it’s more about preservation and availability.
- The FG stories priority isn’t increasing power-scaling but it’s about the opposite because it’s not about distancing each other that would make matchup illogical but It’s more on making sense of every possible encounter when they are used in-game matches.
- NRS isn’t the gold standard for a decent Street Fighter “narrative” should be based on.
- A reboot doesn’t fix things, It just ignore the large portion of the established fanbase because it would likely left out events and characters out of existence than just simply being not involved, so it would cause more complication to expectation and known.
So here is another question people could possibly ask… How about other characters present in-game but were left out and didn’t had direct involvement of the general story event? What do I do with them?
- Just have them roam around and focus on personal minor issues
- Finding clues for certain future event for a future title
- Being aware that there was an event that took place and it’s over. (Something Like Viper in the SF4 aftermath)
- being a spectator of the event
- They could do also flashback encounter like individual stories in SFV to fix and retell with slight new details of the past encounters of that character.
- That character is not involved in the general story event but just would bump-in or meet those character that are hugely relevant to the general story, either after or before.
Here’s another possible questioned to what I cited, Like I mentioned “Just have them roam around and focus on personal minor issues”, “Finding clues for certain future event for a future title” and “Being aware that there was an event that took place and it’s over”, So here is the question “Why can’t just used it to instantly fix major characters in SF that were absent in SF3 timeline because that’s easier and convenient for a fast forward and timeskip SF title?”
The answer is: Those things are effective if just happening in present situation and they were in-game in SF3. the problem mainly in SF3 was more than absence but it is there existence being ignored like they were never been the best and greatest of their universe that this characters from SF3 are the one that only exist. So it creates a disbelief since it’s not just few characters but it’s a huge cast that are mainly major players of the events not just from SFA but also the most recent from SF4 and SF5 which is not as far with SF3. It look like they were sucked into a black hole that all of their existence and events never occurred. So putting just those kind of narrative excused doesn’t worked because of the whole settings of SF3 and the only solution is have those that are new and old that being involve in Shadow Falls that were not in SF3 to be involve in another event recurring in SF3’s timeline.
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Then another distant future story or fast forward after SF3 creates more gaps and absence thus complication and more distant arises it also aged the characters which already a terrible idea for a fighting games which a fighting game characte because most of those weren’t in SF3 are major characters in SF universe and the most recent events in SF4 and SF5 being them simply absent in SF3 timeline makes people questioned.
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My other complaint with that video is his point of “Only 32% of people finished MK11’s story mode” as if that was some kinda knock against fighting game story modes. When that’s true of practically EVERY genre of games, ESPECIALLY the ones that are built around their multiplayer modes.
Call of Duty and Halo games only have a story completion rate of around 30-40% of players, and most of those games put a HUGE amount of effort into their stories.
Lots of people just don’t finish games.
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This is true, It’s a common problem to various genre even in videos because of the major shift on the attention span of majority of people nowadays has became less.
That’s why Tekken 7 did it right on that part when you just don’t drop the controller in the cutscene.
Don’t tag me again, and certainly don’t attempt to speak on my behalf again. Clear?
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To be honest, I’d love so much to have Mysterious Budo join Street Fighter one day.
He was a great design, in my opinion 
IDK, Capcom trying again a wrestling game for once could be a great thing.
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Probably just Ryu in disguise
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He was a good chara design, but tbh not even the most interessing char SF can take from SM saga
So, Lucia’s now a Saberface (Fate/Stay Night + auxiliary series’ term for Saber lookalikes). I could actually see her as a Saber type character. It’s funny, because Rider Francis Drake from Fate/Extra looks like Poison.
- Budo
- Ortega
- Astro/Scorpion
- Gomes I like
- Alexei Zalazof was kind of rebooted as Alex
- Stingray don’t think necessary because there’s already El Fuerte, who knows
Also, the rest of the sequel’s newcomers were interesting but they were much more outlandish and didn’t feel like they fit into the game. Wraith and Sabre were cool, and Black Widow had potential.
Black Widow is badass and should be utilized again. I wanna see her and Haggar team up just like in that SF3 ending.
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I think she got potential but not too many interesting special moves.
More than Street Fighter I think she would fit into a Marvel vs Capcom game. Same goes for Rip Sabre and Wraith.
I’ll liked to see the Wraith in SFV even before season one but we got later Necali
The scorpion was awesome too.
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