Oh, I know about his known jump and SJ confirms(I’ve also seen all your vids. Thanks for doing what you do, btw), but I was just noting that even those are kind of wonky and involve some sort of risk since you can’t OS throw at the beginning like some characters can at normal jump height. As for JS vs CS I’ll say that confirming off of a stray hit from either assist isn’t really what you want IMO, since both assists scale combos to a significant degree(moreso with JS, but yeah). I think if Spidey is already partnered with Doom, missiles is the only assist he needs to deal with SJ height nonsense, and it really should only be used to keep the opponent from getting comfortable in the air. JS will net you more air confirms, but CS will net you more damage overall. I disagree on Spidey’s ability to set up her lockdown. He really only needs to air zip and call her while doing a normal and whether or not the opponent pushblocks they’re essentially stuck for the entirety of CS’s duration, letting you dash in and do an unreactable high/low with either point-blank zip -> any jump normal/landing cr.l or TK web swing/cr.l. I don’t really find it that much of a problem that CS is ground-focused since again hidden missiles can catch opponents in the air(it can also be hit confirmed into a combo) and Spidey can easily get aerial opponents to block a web throw or zip and take his ground mixups anyway. The last thing I’ll say about JS vs CS is simply that from a team composition standpoint, Dante doesn’t mesh quite as well as Ammy does with Spidey/Doom. Doom/Dante is a pretty good shell for Doom, sure, but Doom/Ammy is the undisputed BEST shell and allows the team to stay scary even if Spidey is gone. The only thing I think hasn’t been explored quite yet(and something I’m currently working on) is the direct synergy between Ammy and Spidey aside from CS. I think there may be some way Spidey can get cheap and unique usage out of Vale of Mist or even her THC.
Stop worrying about scaling. Dante, along with beams in general, suck as far as damage goes. The ability to capitalize off those stray hits is ideal simply because you turn a random hit into something to watch for. The main plan is to make them fear every hit that you can land on them. If the combo won’t kill then plan the reset or TAC, that’s what they are for. As for Spidey/Ammy I’ve seen people play it and I’ve seen people get out of it. It’s not as full proof as just throwing out an attack then locking them down. Pushblock Spidey and you have to wait for him to recover or do the next move, web zip in most cases, before you can be back on them. Ammy shoots one ice blast then there’s a gap before the rest. That’s all you need to get out of it. It’s only really good in the corner. Outside of that she’s not one of his best partners. She can’t OTG with her super so THC’s are useless with them. Even when it hits the first part would flip them out of Spidey’s range and he’d finish before they are knocked to the ground but I don’t believe in time to actually pick up though I haven’t actually tried to. Vale of Mist is good for combo video stuff or day one tag back into web throw MS type shenanigans but that’s more meter waste than legitimate tool. Ammy makes a good partner for Doom but only a decent partner for Spidey as she also doesn’t offer up too much for him outside of one area. At least with Doom he can get midscreen left/right mixups because of her.
As for air confirms I’m not sure what you’re finding wonky? You can option select into all of what I put out for air confirms, just omit the j:m:s from the start of it. Everything else just kind of falls into place.
Doom ammy might be a better shell than doom dante but not for spider-man. Theres nothing wrong with that. Its just the way it is for spider-man.
For example. Spidey/dorm/doom > spidey/doom/vergil. Even though everyone admits doom/vergil is a better shell than dorm/doom. When you play spider-man, you’re accepting that you will not have as many choices for teammates as a zero, viper, wolverine etc. Theres a reason why 90% of spider-man players have doom on their team and I can guarantee you it’s not because they love to play doom.
They’ve just always meshed well even before MvC3 came out
Are there any notable Spidey players who run my team? I’d like to see what you’re talking about, because when I use Ammy it’s pretty effective even outside of the corner(granted I’ve never played in tournament, only casuals and online, but simple pushblocking never worked against me). It’s literally just as easy with Spidey as it is with Doom, probably easier since Spidey’s ground movement is better. As for Synergy, Ammy may not have the greatest synergy with Spidey and I’m aware of that(which is why I’m focusing on them right now to possibly force some synergy) but neither does Dante, and I’m fairly sure that at this point any character you throw on a Spidey/Doom team will not have good synergy with both characters without it being restrictive(like Dorm for example. Dorm has synergy with both of them but only in a certain order). Also damage is important when talking about this game as it’s what makes the top tier scarier than other characters. Spider-Man actually has above average damage potential, so making sure he gets to exercise that is important. If all I was really worried about was converting off stray hits I would still be playing Spidey/Doom/Strider(one of my MANY earlier Spidey teams), but I stopped playing that team because despite being able to score hits with vajra I’d always end up having to either TAC or go for an obvious reset that could end up getting me killed. Since I’m a true lab monster, I will probably still end up testing Spidey/Doom/Dante just to confirm my thoughts but I don’t think it will be any better for Spidey since there is no perfect partner for him other than Doom. If I change my mind afterwards, you all have the right to shun me, lol.
Seriously?
Seriously. What does Dante really offer Spiderman aside from Jam Session?(which like I stated earlier is a double edged sword) It’s not like he has anything BFF worthy that would make anyone automatically suggest they go together. Million Dollars does good damage, but JS already takes alot more away. DT is a safe DHC, but it’s not the only one. I’m testing out Spidey/Doom/Dante right now, btw. I’ll make a good list of what I think in a bit.
I think the scaling of a combo after JS isn’t that big of a deal because of TAC infinites, fake TAC resets, UWT setups and other resets. You can do some raw tag combos with dante after a spider-bite, which is pretty useful if you don’t want to spend two meters. Plus, iirc, you can use Jam Session to extend combos if hidden missiles aren’t available or something.
I’ve already done some testing with it and I’ll be the first to admit that I may have given Dante the straw-man treatment a little. While it’s true that JS scales damage terribly when used to start a combo, it can be used at the end of a combo to get more damage than CS would. So far I’m feeling that:
-While JS CAN get consistent SJ confirms, the window isn’t all that huge and certain heights make it awkward/difficult to determine which web throw to use(some angles are actually impossible to confirm from I think). It would probably be easier with more practice, of course
-Dante can do hard tag extentions after web throw and spider sting, but they don’t add any damage and build only slightly more meter than Spidey would if he finished it himself. If Dante was second it would be more beneficial, but for this specific team composition hard tagging isn’t worth it imo.
-Dante can probably do a dirty UWT setup using acid rain as a fail-safe. I haven’t fully tested this out yet, but this would be good bit of tech to have if Doom were to die for some reason.
-The way JS comes out and the way Spidey travels can actually make positioning the assist call kind of hard. Spidey’s usually either in the opponent’s face or 2/3 to fullscreen away with zips, and JS can either fall very short or pass up the opponent sometimes. It’s not quite the same as with a character like Zero who can set up for JS perfectly with his good mid range game.
-This may be just me but I feel like it’s kind of redundant having 2 vertical assists for Spidey. If I need to control the air I’ll only really need one and JS may not cut it for every situation(more mobile aerial characters can avoid JS well, so the tracking on missiles will at least force them to dash around more, making them vulnerable to web throws and such) If Spiderman could put more durability on the screen, JS would work much better, but right now I think Spidey doesn’t really force opponents to take JS.
So overall I think Dante is an ok partner for Spidey and has some possibly cheap stuff but I still think Vale of Mist -> UWT is cheaper(I can expand on that more for anyone that’s interested).
If you are running Spidey/Doom/Dante, it would probably be best to have plasma beam instead of hidden missiles because it helps spidey cover space horizontally, it has lots of durability, and it is pretty easy to confirm off of.
You mention mobile aerial characters can avoid JS which makes missiles better because they track, but in my opinion it is the other way around. Characters with good mobility on the ground and in the air can just maneuver around missiles, but JS is literally just a wall. They can move around in the space in front of the assist, but they aren’t getting through it. This helps spidey push characters into the corner, where he can get some high/low mixups with his grounded web zip.
Oh, with the JS vs missiles thing I was referring to how characters with good aerial control avoid them. JS is faster, so it’s obviously less reactable but when there’s nothing else to pressure the opponent in the air it’s actually easier to avoid. With JS, it moves to one part of the screen, so they can just simply airdash once back or forward to avoid it. With missiles, they have to airdash multiple times or plink dash to avoid getting hit. Since Spidey will mainly be fishing for web throws at that height, the more times the opponent has to move the better the chance you will catch them. This is only really a problem for certain matchups, though. And as for using plasma beam with Doom I am already sacrificing damage with JS so adding plasma beam onto that would get rid of my damage entirely and I’d lose a ton of versatility in combo extension. The sad part about Spidey is that there are quite a few characters that give him everything he needs but not all in one character, and those characters often don’t make good teams together anyway. Out of all the assists I’ve used, I still think the most reliable and helpful neutral assist Spidey can have is, interestingly enough, Rising Fang. I don’t think I need to explain why I didn’t keep using that assist, though, lol.
I keep hearing stuff about damage scaling but what kind of damage are you actually fetching for? You won’t get clean hits 100% of the time in this game. Knowing how to convert hits is a huge priority over damage any time of the day. Dante is easily one of Spidey’s top five and arguably top three best partners besides Dorm and Doom who tie for the first two spots respectively. Missiles alone, when used properly, can net Spidey up to 950k for one bar, outside of those type combos you should be averaging close to 900k off most of Spidey’s combos with missiles period outside of throws obviously but even then so long as you use your other assist you should still be hitting 800k or more. Missiles has more versatility than Jam Session but I would never call it a vertical coverage assist as it’s way to slow for that while Jam Session is. Just the fact that it goes upwards doesn’t automatically give it the same use. Missiles is more lockdown than space control, which is apparent in the fact that you can run around missiles while you can only move around in the space limited to you with Jam Session. When talking about post tag combos with Dante it’s about meter build. Spidey can build up to a bar or more on combos, raw tagging in Dante allows you a bit more extensions to get a slight bit more damage but a shit more bar that you wouldn’t have got with Spidey. Spidey even helps reset his ground bounce for more meter with Spider Sting, but that’s provided you’re running beam for Doom to help with Dante’s left/right mixups. Let’s also keep in mind that Dante’s super at max scaling still does more than Spidey’s, but if you’re really wanting damage he can easily go DT and finish a character off at the cost of using another meter afterwards. The more important part to highlight though is the fact that Dante has stronger resets than Spidey so yes naturally tagging in Dante to gain meter and put the opponent in neutral reset mixups is pretty strong. Other things Dante offers is the space control/corner push that kept getting brought up which is very damn strong and the lockdown it provides right away with no gaps making it harder to pushblock Spidey. Jam Session also can make incomings more of a threat and can fetch for pushblocks for throws/UWT. Those are things that set him apart from Ammy and makes him a better suit over her. Adding characters to Spidey with the properties Dormammu, Doom, and Dante have keeps momentum on your side which is what you want in this game in general. For every strength there’s a drawback you just have to know how it balances and where to work at.
Also yes if you have Doom and Dante on the same team I would recommend beam.
I guess we’re at a misunderstanding with the damage thing. I am not referring to the damage you can get with a clean hit/optimal starter, since that would not use JS till the end of the combo and like I said earlier would add more damage than CS would. I’m talking about non-optimized bnbs using JS to initiate. Like I said in my earlier post I exaggerated the cons of JS a bit, since it’s not really a deal-breaker if only one of your assists scales damage like that, especially if it nets you consistent confirms. What I was talking about with Doom beam is that not only does Spidey’s damage problem exist when starting combos with JS, but they now exist with Doom as well, which would mean for a hit with EITHER assist I would always have to pass the torch over to Dante. That is totally unnecessary in my opinion and does not make Spiderman worth putting on that team. Spidey already has raw tag tech with Doom who can gain comparable meter to Dante(and the fact that Doom is 2nd makes this a much better option than tagging in anchor Dante and leaving Spidey in the back), and while Dante may have more reset tools than Doom solo, Doom with Ammy has better reset potential than Dante alone. What I’m really saying is that if putting Dante on the team will mean I have to run plasma beam and gimp my damage/combo potential entirely then there’s no point since I can easily do the same things with Doom/Ammy. JS is good, sure, but is it worth all that?
xero, do some spidey\dante and put it on youtube!!
Hey Xero i know these requests might be annoying lol but if you have the time, can you do a spidey/drones video or BnBs?
I play with Spidey(Wball)/IronMan(uni)/Sent(Drones) and i know you did a spidey unibeam combo video (wich was awesome! btw) but the problem is that i get most of my hit confirms of a unibeam so i cant count on it for combo extension (i use drones mostly for IM) but i cant find a good BnB with spidey/drones my creativity is ass lol
So if you could help me with this problem that would be awesome ^^
I did some more testing with both Spidey/Doom/Dante and Spidey/Doom/Ammy and spent some time thinking logically about how each team would be practically used and I found that there were some things I wasn’t taking into account with both teams. The short version is that I was wrong about Ammy working better on the team than Dante, and Spidey/Doom(with MISSILES)/Dante is the superior team.
When I looked at Spidey/Doom/Ammy, I was looking at its effectiveness when Spidey already has momentum and when looking at Spidey/Ammy synergy I was mainly looking at ways Spidey can use Ammy(Vale of Mist -> UWT is a good one, since setups with this are inescapable for airdash characters and only Sentinel, Phoenix, and Morrigan can get out of it) but I didn’t look at how the team would hold together in other orders. If Ammy is snapped in(which would likely be the case to get rid of offensive momentum) she has no good way of dealing with incoming mixup and her airdash is VERY vulnurable so getting away isn’t easy for her. In short, the team is more vulnerable to falling appart, and since Spidey isn’t really a momentum-based character it’s not quite worth it.
Dante may not give Spidey an inescapable UWT, but he’s a more well rounded character and the way Spidey uses JS isn’t dependent on offensive momentum like CS. Snapping in Dante isn’t as much of a problem since although his normals are slow his double jump and his wide array of space controlling special moves can get him out of danger much better than Ammy. I was also thinking a little narrow mindedly when looking at the uses of raw tagging Dante, as I forgot that tech would only really become necessary if Doom is not there and in that case it would be the best thing to do.
The reason why I still think Doom should have missiles, however, is that this is a Spiderman team. Spidey can definitely make good use out of plasma beam, I’m not denying that, but missiles are his baby. It gives him so much as far as combo extension and helping control the pace of the match in the neutral that it should always be considered over beam if you already have a good neutral assist(missiles should only be used selectively in the neutral because of how slow it is). I understand that Dante would make better use out of beam in the neutral, but he’s on anchor anyway so it shouldn’t really matter too much.
my rule about hidden missiles has always been you need to be able to cover them. Spidey can’t do that. He doesn’t have an absurd projectile game to make sure doom comes out. He doesn’t give enough block stun either to make sure missiles will activate clean.
In heavy projectile war fights, missiles are useless for spidey. Its too easy to hit as zero\morrigan\magneto\dormamu\hawkeye\strange etc…
outside of combos, it doesn’t do a lot for spidey. Its not present during neutral in top tier fights because he can’t get it out safely. Way too easy to pick off.
I know what it gives spidey, its fucking retarded damage output but IMO, its not worth the trade off. If you lose your other helper, good luck with spidey\missiles doing ANYTHING against a competent player playing a top tier team.
It’s actually not as bad as you think. The only times where calling missiles with Spidey is a bad idea are when you’re either right next to your opponent or the opponent is a zoning team that can put out more than 5 low durability points at a time. In both of those cases, plasma beam isn’t going to make the situation much better. All top tier zoners can fly and shoot projectiles downward(unless you want to count C.Viper as a zoner), making Plasma beam not all that helpful in projectile wars unless the character using beam can put out durability in the air to compliment(ie. Dormammu). It’s sad, but neither assist will make Spidey win against zoning. Also, keep in mind that Spidey will already have Jam Session, an assist that WILL help against top tier zoners. Missiles should only be used for combo extension in situations like those, and in that regard it’s VERY worth it as it allows Spidey to guarantee a kill on the point character.
I could do a write up on the misconceptions of missiles but I’m tired at the moment. What I will say is Dante does have setups for “inescapable” resets into UWT and Doom doesn’t build more bar than Dante. Do a real Spidey combo that’s meant to hurt then try raw tagging into Doom and tell me what you get. Do the same with Dante. Dante has the special properties the game lets us abuse to get extra stuff within means, the ability to use glitches that recycle properties also helps lend towards why Dante builds more meter. I’m just picking up Dante now but from what I’ve seen and what I am speculating I can probably come up with some added extensions given I properly learn Dante like I have Spidey.
He does? If you don’t mind me asking, what can Dante do to keep airdash/double jump characters from getting out of UWT’s range? UWT setups/guard breaks are a HUGE focus for me since I believe that mastering them will make Spider-Man teams hang with other top tier teams in terms of “end-game” capability.