Can you do kara moves with any normal attack?
Where can i find data for air juggle counts for every character’s attack?
Shoot, forgot I just asked about this too.
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The last part being most relevant to this question/discussion.
the sjc grab invulnerability isn’t throughout the attack, it’s at the beginning when the throw and and attack hit boxes overlap. The reason I said sjc super would beat it is because supers aren’t hit invulnerable
sjc super with chun would be beat by a full screen grab maybe but not an up close one. I believe so because a grab isn’t active for the entire time it takes a super to reach full screen. You’d whiff by the time it reached you. I know this. Why? Because I have wall thrown chun out of her super from full screen. I have grabbed Ken out of his super countless times. Grabbed Q out of his super. Grabbed X out of their super. SO on and so forth. It’s all simple physics but I can’t prove that because I don’t care to.
You don’t need Japanese explanations for all these things, it’s not difficult to figure it out. I figured it out when I was like 19 years old and that was only because I didn’t play the game til then. I was doing shit like this in smash bros 64 when I was like 10. I had a jp copy of it, just in case you guys try to throw more “facts” at me. Not saying I don’t trust your programs ESN but I trust actual applied experience more than a number you pulled out of a controlled environment. It’s not the same.
Supers don’t have any priority, their hit boxes just reach the hurt box quicker because hit boxes in 3s don’t function like hitboxes in your diagrams or in ST for that matter. They don’t just appear, they gradual extend outward. There’s this kind of hadouken, in the energy from the palm sense, attribute to most of the attacks. A lingering hitbox of sorts. Chun back fierce being the best example of it. Even then I don’t think it’s ever just one way. As for the super hitboxes, those just appear. They are there immediately but hurt boxes during a super still function normally.
I really shouldn’t have to explain that I understand super invulnerability doesn’t last throughout the entire super. Otherwise parrying supers would be useless.
it’s if two boxes intersect at the same time. not just a timing thing which is what you’re describing.
the thing is. in reality it’s so extremely rare that 2 hit boxes intersect opposing hurtboxes at the exact same frame that it really barely matters at all.
You are missing the whole point of the question…
I was not questioning whether supers are throw-able or even hit-able, but why Ken got grabbed in a situation he should still have his inherent wake-up throw invulnerability frames.
Let me put it this way if Ken had a special with the same startup as shippu that was also throwable on its first active frame it would NEVER get grabbed in this situation.
this has happened to me before on arcade board.
was very wtf when my karakusa grabbed em, nice to know why it worked now.
Man, i may be really tired, but i have no clue why you’re saying all this and what does all this mean beside “throw will work if correctly timed, won’t if not”.
I didn’t understand first why you talked about sjc, cause it doesn’t matter at all to determine if you’re able or not to grab a super.
For supers priority: who will win between gouki far hp vs jinrai when only end of both active hitboxes (no hurtboxes reachable by any)? That’s how you’ll determine priority, not with active hitboxes reaching hurtboxes faster than the other, where it’s just a matter of timing/positionning like Tebbo said.
Haha, i just realized i didn’t actually answered your question as i only tested regular jinrai vs throw, not wakeup jinrai :d
Just tested this precisely, and no problem to catch a wakeup jinrai with a karakusa. So, it seems superfreeze gets rid of those throw invulnerability frames, on wakeup. Same on hitstun/blockstun recovery btw. Specials still keep inv though, hence your remark on Gouki tatsu.
One thing about the superfreeze glitch, what i said before is probably wrong or at least may not be that obvious: i used karakusa to test this time because i haven’t been able to grab Ken with regular throw at first. In fact, i found throw won’t connect if… mak is point blank range to ken (as far as i can tell, it may be due to something else), cause all throw startup frames occurs during superfreeze, one on the beginning, the other one somewhere before the end, no idea why. If mak is not that close to ken, throw will connect (works like i described in previous post). Some glitch magics there…
Yeah it is good to know why even though realistically it should only happen if someone throws too early as karakusa would whiff if the did nothing/anything but super.
Also come to think about it this would/could also explain how gigas can be possibly thrown out of. (assuming that it wasn’t just missed timed)
Wake up grab inv frames are no longer active if you press a button or commit to an action. Simple answer. You expect too much to be handed to you. Go play sf4. I know that’s harsh but you prance around these boards asking people for answers and don’t value them unless they are followed by facts and figures. 3s wasn’'t made in a way that requires that. It does require some ingenuity but that’s neither here or there because even then it isn’t that difficult.
The game provides you with the tools to answer the question yourself, was my point then. It’s all there.
But IT IS just a matter of which ones reach faster because the time that they will reach there is dependent on the positioning etc because placing a point blank normal up against a point blank super and expecting to get any differing results is just silly and, by definition, insane.
First, let’s get out of our pseudo 3s scientists clothing and realize that you’ll never beat out the first hit of shippu by attacking it head on unless you meet it with a super yourself. So in order to really determine whether or not shippu has more priority and not just invulnerability frames ( I’m implying that priority is not some hard coded number but rather an abstraction of priority that we created on the perceived notion that invulnerability frames act like “a shield” from damage and then allow the move to pop out full force thus creating this “priority” we see )we are going to have to place the super’s hit boxes along side the normal’s hit boxes in an actual fair situation.
Knowing this, I’ll place the 2nd character at max range for shippu’s second swing of the leg, this will mean that the first hit ( the invulnerable one ) whiffs. Now it whiffed and moved a bit forward and is getting ready to make the second swing. If the second character throws out a normal that is just as fast as the shippu or at least times itself so that the two attacks meet up in the middle at the same time there is no magix number in the coding that says the super will always win. It is all positioning as Tebbo was saying. And if the number both match at zero, considering there is a hurtbox available for shippu to actually be hit, they will trade. If there isn’t, shippu out-prioritising the normal will be simply because that normal has a hyrtbocks within reach and sheepoo doesn’t. That does not = priority. There is always going to be a “sweet spot” for any two attacks in this game to trade. Unless that super is genei jin. I think. And a normal with “less priority” only has less because it was put out there without “a shield” or is simply not being used in the appropriate situation. That’s your priority. There is no priority variable in the character class coding, it’s made up.
The only reason I responded the way I did was because you felt the need to let me know that super jumps aren’t Roll Cancels. I was like “wtf”, I didn’t even touch ggpo for like 5 years into the game, I know how it really works.
You need SoCal 3s, bruh. That situation you described is a trade by definition. Which is not uncommon, I don’t think, between two equally matched players.
lol
that’s not socal anything.
i have been skeptical since forever of that whole thing. jedpossum made this to show me exactly.
tell me where you see a trade. this is with opposing hitboxes intersecting opposing hurtboxes on the same frame.
like i said. the reality is this rarely happens or seems at all odd. weak moves are much quicker and so they often interrupt stronger attacks before they are active.
you can get trades in a few ways i think. like hitting the character hurtbox, not the move hurtbox at the same time. or two moves of equal strength hitting at the exact same time.
i can’t verify that this moment but from experience I feel that must be true. the only time the move strength priority part of the game comes into play is in this specific scenario.
also i dont get trades because remy’s legs are longer and beat everything ever.
I don’t really know what you’re trying to prove with that example, seeing as Sean’s attack was already out. Do Q’s attack one frame earlier and see what happens then.
Maybe Sean has an even number of frames for his attack and Q has an odd number. This isn’t going to provide a definitive answer right away but it’ll surely point us in the right direction.
Maybe Sean’s attack staying out longer is what determines the “out-prioritising”. The calculations, I’m fairly sure, aren’t exactly 2 + 2 = 4, it’s more like 2 + 1 = 3 unless it’s 1 + 2 = 3. I hope that makes sense. Precedent, I think, is the concept here but once again I could be completely wrong. I present it as an equation because they are combining to determine a result, the two attacks are, and that is how the game registers it. You won’t truly understand the game until you start to treat it as a singular entity despite there being two players. That’s a program for you.
Also, Sean hits two of Q’s hurtboxes while Q barely touches Sean’s one. You can’t undermine the importances of substance as it plays into the decisions the game makes. If I hit a meaty attack and you uppercut, the only reason I was able to hit with the meaty is because so much of my hitbox was already in your hurtbox.
The need? Come on…
You wrote something which was wrong the way i understood it, so i tried to explain things, that’s all. And then, seems you took it personally or something…
And now, this…
…is plain wrong. Seriously, it’s part of what i’ve said in my first answer here, even with an animated example to show it in game with throw/hitboxes…
Makoto using Karakusa vs Gouki using reversal tatsu, fireball, normals and even taunt.
Gouki wins.
Reversal SA1? Gouki loses.
EDIT: ESN’s a ninja…
are you saying reversal fireball/normals besides f+mp/taunt beat makoto karakusa?
I understand HK tatsu not being grabbed as it, if I remember correctly, is airborne on the 1st or 2nd frame. And to address the latter, did you try not attempting to land a grab at the very last frame and instead time the grab to land on their second start up frame?
Super flashes in Capcom have always had strange phenomena attributed to them, such as killing frames, buffering inputs, etc. That might explain why the invincibility frames wear off.
And as for reversal, do you mean using the attack as a counter or doing the attack out of block or wake up without going to neutral? Reversal is the latter in 3s if not every capcom game.
the need part was brought in when you failed to give to person you were speaking to any credit. It was very condescending and the only reason I responded the way I did was because I thought there was an air of respect being thrown around in here seeing as we are all trying to accomplish the same thing. An understanding of the game’s engine through the game’s engine.
As for the second part, I think maybe you’re just trying too hard to defend someone that isn’t being attacked but rather being provided an answer. I’ll admit telling him to play sf4 is a bit harsh, no one deserves that but I wasn’t wrong. He was saying Ken was grabbed out of his wake up super when, knowing that his super is grabable, his super shouldn’t have been grabable due to the wake up grab invulnerability frames. I was telling him that it became grabable because he commited to an action. Wake up invulnerability comes from the fact that you don’t press anything on wake up. Pressing anything, whether it be a motion, or an attack negates that invulnerability. That is all I was saying. Maybe my syntax is all mucked up.
yeah i don’t know why he did it that way. i don’t know why he couldn’t just do it as both attacks becoming active simultaneously. as opposed to one and then another intersecting with it. that’s actually what i was hoping he would show, but he didn’t. don’t know why. can’t be that hard to step through frames and hit buttons and calculate the 5 - 6 difference that q needs to start one frame earlier to be active on the same frame.
but what do i know.
not sure if that makes a difference or not. but at least that gif shows that a higher strength attack that is active will flat beat a weaker attack that intersects it (assuming hitboxes/hurtboxes line up).
however it works it feels ‘right’ in game anyway.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Karakusa covers more frames than a standard throw, though nowhere near a demon obviously. I figured it would be easier to test for me. I did use normal throws too, same results.
I did vary the timing up so that the Karakusa would be active AFTER Gouki could reversal. SA1 beat out Karakusa here, because the super connected before the Karakusa’s 1st hit frame. The other results were the same, I even walked and dashed through the Karakusa. If what you said was true, that any action negates throw invulnerability, then plenty of wake-up option-select (or normal) parries wouldn’t work.
For the last part, I threw Gouki and waited for him to wake up. Reversal (and even a few non-reversals) fireballs with both returning the stick to neutral and still holding forward resulted in the fireball winning.
I personally believe that the reason throws grab most supers is because the super freeze’s frames count towards the wake up throw window.