I feel characters like Balrog, Blanka, Honda and Bison have fundamental specials that can only work in the way they do due to the charge. Like with Nash, his sonic boom has some effect of a sonic boom by having quick recovery at the cost of slow start up. That would be the ideal way to balance a motioned sonic boom, but unfortunately you still can’t really apply the same utility or frame data that you can with a charge based sonic boom that would have both quick start up and recovery while still being balanced. That’s a situation where a charge command adds the most to what a sonic boom traditionally does for Guile.
Vega just doesn’t seem to have a special move that truly benefits from being a charge motion. All of his specials can pretty much function exactly as they do with circular motions and not change much of the applications. While opening up options for him in neutral.
With a character like Bison, yeah you technically would open up options for him if he was completely circular motion, but his scissor kick could not have the frame data and properties it has now if it was a circular motion. The way that move works as a pressure tool would give him way too much free pressure or would have to be nerfed outside of its intended use if made as a command. With that said, even with Bison his V Trigger allows him to tap motion his EX specials without any charge when used in combos.
I have no fear of an “extinction” of charge characters in SF. It’s still a fundamental aspect of SF, it’s just Capcom has seemed to figure that it is needlessly applied to special moves or certain characters where it does nothing for their gameplay but limit when they can pressure. For Birdie this was very obvious as he was a command grab character that had to charge to get in and pressure which was rather unnecessary. Now he has more freedoms to pressure and zone while still having some semblance of a grappler. Capcom IMO is just getting rid of the fluff applications of the charge commands where specials seemingly are charge for the sake of being charge rather than like a Balrog Dash punch or Bison Scissor kick where it makes sense to keep intact the original properties and ways to apply pressure with said move.
Was talking more about the change from 3S Chun to IV Chun. I played her for a bit in Super but never really felt like I could play her like I did back in 3S or A2. I’ve a friend who plays him competitively (and is probably the best Chun in the Philippines) and while he can do massive damage with her, what he does to do it makes her feel not like the Chun I’ve played in all those years, doing Desk level shenanigans and loops. Yet, despite this, her inputs weren’t changed drastically in IV.
At the same time, some of Chun’s past incarnations had varying degrees of changed inputs, yet her base playstyle didn’t feel as different as the jump to IV was. Maybe it’s bias since I mostly played her in 3S and A2, but she always felt more like a “poke machine” in those games, where she could do enough damage off single pokes and the occasional hit confirm (unlike IV where it feels like if you’re not doing some form of legs loop, then you’re not winning).
That said, Chun feeling more like 3S Chun in this game is encouraging.
Jeez, talking about input changes across multiple sequels, how about within the same damn series? Hyper Fighting HCF fireball, Super back > forward fireball, ST SBK changed from down > up to back > forward and had a new move on the old input… Within SF2 Chun was changed a lot. Everyone went through pretty significant changes in SF2, hell the boss characters didn’t even have unique normal attacks per button until SSF2.
Vega’s izuna isn’t tiny, it’s not big either though. IMO the real problem is that it’s only active for 1F so you need to be VERY precise. It’s a problem with Guy’s Bushin Flip - Throw and Cammy’s Hooligan throws as well. Even Gouken/Akuma’s flip throw is considered to require tight timing and it is 2F.
It’s very easy to get slash instead of izuna in comparsion to ST though, which I assume is because the proximity range and hitbox don’t line up perfectly.
I’ve already seen that counterargument thrown around a bit, and I don’t mean to be condescending, but capcom wouldn’t do that. Ryu is the company’s mascot even moreso than megaman nowadays. That being said, there’s no need to change his motions as he’s the most standardized character. And to quote combofiend, character archetypes, strengths and weaknesses in V are directly based off of ryu and how they match against him. So again, I don’t think the whole ‘‘what if Ryu as a charge motion character’’ argument holds solid ground as there’s simply no need for him to be a charge char.
Well its not about if capcom would actually do it, its just about how you would feel IF they did that.
No one is saying capcom would actually do that or that there would be any reason to do it.
I’ve already gone over this point in the past and it’s a bit fallacious of an argument.
The difference in this situation is that making Ryu a charge character would seriously hurt him. It’s not that he’d have a different control scheme, but the fact that Ryu would thus lose all versatility and his mobile options would be severely limited in the state he’s in now. He’d basically be Guile without a normal other than rush punch to move forward during charge. He’d become a mostly static fortress and that isn’t Ryu. Ryu is a juice kick monster in the air, walk forward tatsu hops, walk forward zoning pressure, and so on. Making him a charge character would drastically alter him.
Vega on the other hand, is largely unaffected. Vega is almost always on his feet poking, jumping, and dancing instead of charging, unless you’re playing a turtle Vega which is highly effective in the right game. The thing is, Vega benefits from not having to charge. For Ryu, it’s detrimental. This is the difference between the two situations.
Motion characters becoming charge characters is in most cases, a negative change to the character’s options. Charge characters to motion characters is largely a positive change. To make this clear, charge characters lose nothing when going motion, they gain. Motion characters on the other hand, they lose out on a lot of options they once had. This is why people would get pissed off if Ryu became charge. Not because of new inputs, but because of what it means when he has to sit on a direction to get access to a move. To be fair, charging isn’t a problem mid-combo, it works rather well and has lower dex requirements since you aren’t moving your joystick as much. It’s a problem when you want to respond with a special but you don’t have access to it because you don’t have charge stored. Sometimes this is a deliberate design choice, and that’s ok!
Yeah, this came as a bit of a shock to me. Back when I actually made the switch to Stick, I could no longer play the quarter circle characters I exclusively used on pad. Charge characters were a lot more intuitive with the square gate that’s standard in arcade sticks. I’ve played exclusively charge characters throughout my entire competitive Street fighter “career” because of that. I guess I’m going to have to learn this style of play now.
My advice is to hit training room with Ryu and throw lots and lots of fireballs until it becomes second nature. Also, use the gate. You’re not really doing quarter circle motions, but quarter square. For example, everyone thinks hadouken is a QCF. It’s actually not. Use the gate. Down, down-forward hit the corner, then up to forward. Get used to that motion and it will start to come naturally to you. SRK is easy, too. Forward, down, down forward hit the corner.
Kinda strange to pick up a stick and not have any training in motions. Sanwa gates have so little throw that even just a bit of wrist work can get motions out for you.
Its hard to relate the “if ryu had charge” thing since theres no sensible reason to make Ryu a charge character. Plus its already common knowledge that beginning and intermediate fighting game players generally prefer motions to charge.
This whole thread: “I wanna play Vega without that Vega feeling”.
Hopefully they do this to everybody. I wanna live in a world where blanka whiff punishes with balls just because. Shit, give that to honda and change headbutt’s name to “knockdowns on demand”.
Also, no sensible reason to make ryu a charge character? That motherfucker has a 3 fucking frame reversal. If its goig to be that much better than flash kick, why the fuck would he have it on command?
Well that’s the thing you would have to assume that Capcom has the sense to make sure things like Blanka ball and headbutt remain charge. Those moves would have to be toned down severely and then lose their general purpose to become motion moves. Vega doesn’t seem to have any moves that will lose their basic purpose by being commands.
Why would you ride the gate like that?
I feel like it just takes away your speed. All you have to do is hit down, then immediately go to the forward position.
The more often you practice that, the fewer times you will actually hit the boundaries of the stick and the faster the motion comes out.
I’m trying to actively use my fingers to move the stick since a couple of month and it feels much more accurate than using your palms and wrist and force the stick to get out of the square gate corners.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong since I still suck at stick control.
The gate is there for a reason. Actually 2. One, to make sure your lever doesn’t travel further than it needs to and 2, to give you a shape to find diagonal and cardinal directions easily. Think of how hard a charge character is without a square gate. On a square gate, if you need to do Bison’s super in ST, you simply charge down back and then slide the lever back and forth 2x between both bottom corners. Stuff like Vega super would be nearly impossible to do accurately on a consistent basis if you did not have a square gate. Charge characters on a circle gate are nearly impossible to play because you never know if you’re defense crouching or neutral crouching. Cardinal directions aren’t so bad, but the diagonals are very hard to gauge if you have them correct.
The gate is there for a reason.
Think of how hard Tiger Knee and Chicken Wing motions are in ST. You know what simplifies it? Square gate. All you have to do is go from down back, to down forward, to up forward. It’s literally a 2 motion move. Trying it without hitting the gate because you’re told “never ride the gate” means you need to do a 3/4 circle motion, and NOT guaranteed to hit the diagonals as you hit the cardinals meaning you’ll fuck your move up.
The way you do it, if you hit down and immediate go to the forward position you risk missing the diagonal, meaning dropped move. I also use a nearly no throw setup so my lever hits the gate pretty much as soon as it activates the switch. This way, I get all the benefits of having the shape of the gate and also all the benefits of not having to ride it.
FWIW, there is no difference in speed just because you ride the gate. The plastic parts don’t have enough friction and in the case of a Hayabusa or a Seimitsu stick, they’re using low friction parts such as nylon and delrin. My advice to people starting off on stick is to stop thinking in circle and start thinking in square. Every single move makes a lot more sense that way. Tiger Knee and Chicken Wing are great examples of how a seemingly complicated move can be easily simplified.
If the gate was only there to restrict how far the stick goes and was never meant to ride, then it wouldn’t be a square shape or have any shape at all, other than circle, since that’s the most natural range of motion a lever has.
I just wanna play Vega, dude. It’s nice that he’s getting a huge fresh coat of paint. I also like the options not having to charge opens up. You know what? I’m ok with Blanka, Honda, and Bison not having to charge. You know why? Because fucking Cammy Spiral Arrow. It’s the same theory in practice. Good forward momentum that comes out fast and has no charge requirements. You can walk forward spiral arrow on the fly. Guess what? In SF4, it knocks down and has to be blocked low. In ST, you can block that shit high so no big deal, right? How about moves like Hawk’s Rising Hawk or Cammy’s Cannon Spike? Those come out fast and have a lot of forward momentum, too! And at the right ranges they go through fireballs! Yun dash punches? Same idea. It’s like, man these moves are totally broken and I can’t block. Wait…
No, there is no sensible reason at all to make Ryu a charge character. 3 frame DP? Bait that shit and don’t use unsafe block strings unless you’re willing to take a risk. If you made it charge, would it be down back or down? If down, then it would be even easier for Ryu to DP a cross up because there would be no breaking it. You know, DP has way less range than Flash Kick. It has a lot more utility though. In SF4 DP’s problem isn’t that it’s 3 frames, it’s that you don’t have to commit to it and if you score a hit you get a shit ton of damage off it. IMO, reversal should only reset and not give a huge reward, it’s meant to give space and force people to respect wake up, but the way it’s implemented in 4 is awful.
Actually, I wouldn’t mind Charge Sagat at all. If there’s any motion character I could potentially change to Charge, it’d be him. It’d let me give him the CvS2 tier Crouch Fierce back.
