if arcades are dying, the best we can do is to find a way for console owners to meet up.
something like a myspace for competitive gamers, maybe…
You, my friend, need some Garou vids.
Whatever you do to revatilze the scene, don’t hold avatar competitions. They fill up with drama FAST.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108086
…seriously.
Hokutomaru? roffle
“if x had a bigger following i’d totally get into it” people are the reason why those fighters don’t have a big following in the first place
Someone’s been playing Arcade mode a little too much.
http://howardarena.sakura.ne.jp/ Has some pretty good match vids (early ones), but I remember a few high lvl vids awhile ago that made the howardarena vids look scrubby. One of them was the match spoken about earlier with a Rock player completely shutting down a Kevin rush down, and a Gato breaking Terry’s Guard Crush corner string.
But don’t even talk about tiers with Garou, the US and Japan can’t even agree on a top and bottom tier. If I’m not mistaken, the jpn’s have Gato/Jenet on tops, while the US has Kevin/Terry. Everyone has a chance in Garou, and there’s a strat to snuff even the most destructive character…except Jenet, she’s unstoppable.
I can see what you mean by this statement, but there are some instances where it really does make sense. If I wanted to play Melty Blood or Rumblefish I’d have to travel somewhere else, probably out of state, just to get in some casual games. It’s just not a feasable option.
Of course you can try to spread intrest around the local area, but sometimes that doesn’t work out too well either so I can see where it could be a valid reason as to why someone wouldn’t wanna take a fighting game seriously.
25 cents is too cheap for any new arcade game, but 50 is reasonable and traditional.
The lack of ads is sad, though. Seriously I don’t even see ads in gaming mags, let alone on TV. Cartoon Network could easily play GGX2/SNKP ads since they’re trying to be so anime happy.
That and arcades don’t do commercials in general, so how do you spread the word in the first place?
I’ll take a stab.
“The scene” has been niche since around 1996 (along with arcades themselves). The internet gave the fighting genre a shot in the arm. Only people on this site see the situation as otherwise. I’m not trying to be insulting towards you or anyone else, just stating what I see as the truth. I would love it if the fighting scene were blossoming. But the sheer number of competitive and “serious” players is small.
On the other hand, the “scene” is vastly more organized nowadays, which also has contributed to its longevity, and that’s why you see the highly organized tournaments and web sites that old-skoolers could only dream about. I honestly wonder if there would be any SF community if SRK had not come into the picture.
Anyway, my point is that people can’t view 2D fighters as a mainstream product turning into a niche product. It is a niche product as a gaming genre, particularly in the united states.
Before I speak about the games themselves, let me say this: By far (very far), the biggest reason fighting games are going the way of the dodo is because the arcade is DEAD and the fighting genre won’t wake up to that fact. Dead as disco. Dead as Jerry Garcia. So dead that Jesus Christ himself would prolapse his rectum trying to bring it back to life. I’ve seen the innovations over the last 10 years (ticket games, bars, DDR, jungle gyms, etc.) and they aren’t going to bring it back, only sustain it as a niche market. What happens when you take a niche game genre and stick it in a niche entertainment venue. Nothing. Nada.
Before you get up in arms, don’t tell me the arcade isn’t dead. I practically grew up in the arcades of the bay area and Reno and no one is more sad to see them go. If there is a succesful arcade in your area where you can hang with friends and get your game on, that’s awesome. Enjoy it while it lasts.
What made the genre in the early 90s was competition and the arcade was still viable because online play wasn’t developed. Also, arcades still had a substantial technology edge over consoles. People went to the arcades for comp and bragging rights and to see the latest stuff. Now people play online and on consoles. Competing with your buddies in your living room is nothing like the old days, and neither is online but right now it is by far the best game in town.
The arcade venue is simply not substantial enough anymore to grow and sustain a competitive community. DDR was a “killer app” for the arcades for awhile and did well, but it didn’t get people back in the arcades in droves.
Even today I still hear people claim that the consoles are not a substitute to the arcades and what draws people to one isn’t the same as the other. These people, sadly, are deluding themsevles. Not a direct substitute, sure, but more than enough kill the traditional arcade. When the original Playstation hit the scene, as well as Doom (aka, the rise of the FPS), the effect was practically instant and totally devastating.
FWIW, I am old skool and I still play video games. All my friends from back then still play games. We play other games. :lovin: Yes, some have moved out of gaming entirely but there are plenty of gamers out there, just not fighting game players. I point this out because there is an attitude on SRK that “players moved on”, implying they stopped playing games altogether. They didn’t stop playing, by and large. The gaming industry is bigger now than ever. They moved on to what they feel are more rewarding gaming experiences.
See, that’s the tough thing for SRKers to take - that people find other gaming experiences to be superior than a fighting game. Deal with it - it’s true.
I know, I know, they’re scrubs, right?
As for old skoolers and “change”, back in the day, when we were playing WW and they announed CE, we couldn’t wait for it. And when it came out, it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yes, there were new chars, new moves, lots of CHANGES, and we ate them up! We loved it. The game got better because of the changes. I still occasionally went back to WW for some guile glitch fun, but CE was just too much fun.
Sure there were BAD changes. Not all the changes were good. But overall, the game was vastly improved overall.
That was the case for several years - good changes that improved the game and advanced the genre. Some bad changes, some setbacks, sure.
My point is, old skool players are not against change in an absolute sense, i.e. “any change is bad!” That is such a juvenile and over-simplified point-of-view that I’m amazed it’s so prevalent.
It would be like if I showed you the 2006 Corvette, which I am totally in love with, and you didn’t like the handling. And I responded, “That’s because you hate change! We can’t stay in 2005 forever! Change with the times!”
Maybe some hate change - I don’t. I like good changes. After playing the phenomenoly good ST, I hated Alpha. Alpha 2 was better but I still didn’t like it enough to play. I liked a lot of the changes in A3 and 3s and played them some. I would have been up for playing more (i.e. competition), but the comp just wasn’t there anymore and arcades were closing up.
On the other hand, I think a game like CVS2 is a steaming pile. I played it a little and didn’t like it, it just wasn’t fun. Graphically, it’s an insult to the modern gamer. Why am I paying 50 cents for 25 cent graphics? Begin flame war here. :arazz: 
I already know what you’re gonna say. You’re gonna say “Fighting games are about skill, etc. not so much about graphics.” Yeah, I know this, but graphics are important to the modern gamer and the technology is there (and was when CVS2 came out). If you want to appeal to the modern gamer you need a game that plays well AND looks good. There’s no excuse for a graphically poor fighting game.
I came here and read some info, looked up a few FAQs on CVS2, and thought to myself, “Why would anyone go through the trouble?” To me, and the majority of gamers outside of shoryuken.com, CVS2 is an overly-complex game that only a hardcore few and the scrubs that idolize them will have the patience for.
Wait, lemme guess: I’m just too scrubby to appreciate such an incredible game, right? :lovin:
Bottom line, if you new-skoolers want to philosophise about why the genre is dying/dead, one thing you need to do is drop this nonsense about “you don’t like CVS2 because you don’t like change” attitude. Or the equally ridiculous, “You don’t like CVS2 because you’re a n00b/can’t hang/etc.”
I remember when CVS2 was still in beta and it was getting a lot of talk here at SRK. I was thinking to myself, “This is it! This game is gonna bring back a little of those old skool competition days!” I went to one of the beta sites advertised on SRK, one of the very few places in the nation you could try out this supposedly great new game and not one person was playing it at 2PM on a saturday. I took one look at it and thought, wow, is this game ugly.
The other thing you need to do is stop viewing fighting games like a religion you need to dedicate your life too. I see this so often, it’s funny. Someone tries the game and says, “meh” and the response from the fighter community is basically, “You have to play it for a month and then you’ll understand why it’s so good.” Or, “Read this FAQ and you’ll understand how to play”. WTF? Who wants to spend $50 in quarters and read a novel to begin to appreciate a game. Very few people. If a game can’t hook you within a couple bucks in quarters, it’s destined for the back corner of the arcade. With fighting games these days, it seems you’re either super hardcore or you don’t play them. You need to understand it’s the casual players that support the genre, not the hardcore.
People play video games first and foremost to have fun. If they don’t find the game fun, they play something else. It’s just that simple. Compared to other genres, 2D fighters get very little play. Conclusion: Most people do not find fighting games to be enjoyable.
The question you should be asking yourselves is: “How do you make fighting games enjoyable to a wider audience?”
I’m sure at this point people are thinking “Who is this whiner who just talks smack about my beloved CVS2 and can’t even offer improvements?”
Here’s what I think:
- There are two common aspects of all games (be they video games, sports, card, board, etc) which makes them succesful to a wide audience: First, they are fun to play, which is obvious. The game mechanics, strategy, graphics, etc. are enjoyable and rewarding.
Second, they are deviously simple to pick up, but incredibly difficult to master - a mind game of simple definition yet infinite possibility. This speaks to the whole “complexity” side of 2D fighters. Yes, the game has to evolve and change and add stuff, but it can never lose sight of this key fundamental or it immediately starts becoming a niche item and loses staying power.
The street fighter series started down the wrong road almost from the get-go, in large part due to the difficulty of the computer AI. Yes, a bitter, change-fearing old skooler clutching ST in his cold, dead hands is criticizing the early games! Don’t have a seizure or anything. :looney:
The computer AI in champion edition was already too hard for joe average who wasn’t already acquainted with WW. By HF, Joe Average was left in the dust and the vast majority of HF players were veterans of WW and CE. By Super they recognized the problem and dropped the difficulty but failed to deliver the goods for the veterans (the game was easier to pick up but lacked depth). With Super Turbo, they reversed the situation (far too difficult for the average player, but tons of depth for veterans).
Nowadays the situation is almost completely hopeless for joe average confronted with Super-Groove EX Turbo Plus Alpha Minus SNK Zero Remix VS Squared Fighter 3. :looney: Yes, occasional new blood comes in, usually one friend explaining the game to another. This isn’t enough to sustain a genre.
Creating a game that is intuitive to learn but difficult to master is an incredibly difficult feat. Take the board game Scrabble. Anyone can learn how to play the game in a few moves. Anyone can build simple words and understand how to score. But to rack up 150 points in one round? That takes practice, total concentration, a rock solid vocabulary, strategy and the ability to expertly form words out of random letters. Not to mention some luck. So from the simple premise, which anyone can grasp, a whole world of ways and means opens up on how BEST to do it.
Back in the WW days when I was in high school, teachers and adults used to ask me what was so great about it. There were so many kids playing SF2 that a lot of adults considered it a social ill. I explained to them that SF2 was like a game of chess that required lightning fast reflexes.
- Consoles and Online play. Again, this is where a lot of “hardcore” players (not all) get their panties in a wad. “Online play is imprecise, too laggy, scrub playground, etc.” Who’s hating change now?
A game needs to be built from the ground up for a console with online play as a primary intended medium. Online play is the new competitive arcade and gaming community, and has been for the last five years. There are exceptions (ddr, for example) but by and large this is the case.
As I understand it, Japan still has a fairly strong arcade market and due to the size of that country, might well for the next decade.
- A much stronger single player experience. The single player experience with a decent story keeps the player interested while they ease into the complexities of the game. The latest version of MK is taking a stab at this. Shenmue was an adventure game with strong fighting game elements. Even Unreal Tournament 2004 has a basic single player experience where new players can get up to speed before entering the purely competitive environment of online play if they like.
So to sum up:
- Design a game with more mass appeal. Simple to learn, difficult to master.
- Get the games on consoles and get them online.
- Include a single player experience.
- ST > you :lovin:
Mycah, you know John the owner of Planet Zero had a KOF XI tournament a couple of weeks ago right? So there is some competition on the new stuff. Maybe I’m of the old school a little bit since I’m about to turn 26 but I find SNK games so-so, and I find Capcom games much more fluid and diverse. It was only about a year or two back when they finally decided to switch from the Neo Geo MVS arcade hardware to the new Sega-Sammy Atomiswave system and their Hyper Neo Geo 64 hardware didn’t last long either. The other thing however the fighting game community had to compete with the first-person shooter crowd which is a much bigger crowd than the fighting game community ever was. And other thing which John the owner of Planet-Zero in Houston said it best, the Japanese look at US players (ie Dark Geese, good example since he was too chicken to money match one of Houston’s top 3rd Strike players because the format for our recent tourney was on arcade) as mainly nothing but pad players and so they rather release games like KOF XI, RumbleFish 1 and 2 on console in the US than in the arcades because from a business perspective they make more money that way (ie they laugh at the way US gamers play because of that perception).
My suggestion is for all if you guys that want more new blood in the fighting game arena, support your local arcade and quit being a fuckin pad pussy. That way we can show those Japs that we’re just as good as they are.
How about coming to terms with what the fighting game scene has become in America? Not every fighting game community even HAS an arcade to latch onto, what of them?
You better be bringing a stick too or don’t ever call yourself a hardcore fighting game player again lol.
Ramza34, even still you can at least buy yourself a stick and practice on console at home. I myself own 2 Hori Real Arcade Pros and I know there are lots of people on this site that own Arcade sticks as well so there are no arcades nearby there are ways you can bring the arcade experience home (all depending on your budget of course).
Mycah for president goddammit.
You see the problem, but can you find the solution?
Bingo. Almost all of the big tournament games (M vs C 2, C vs SNK 2, Tekken 5, SC
III, etc.) are all on console.
Although Tekken 5 had a great novelty idea by adding the controller ports on it. If
more games had it, I could probably see more turn-outs.
Controller ports and cards do help. All arcade fighters would do well to learn from Tekken 5.
Because there are only 2 things harder than finding an arcade nowadays:
-
Finding an arcade with GOOD fighters
-
Finding an arcade with GOOD fighters and joysticks NOT broken to hell.
Tekken 5 with controller ports was a good thing in a sense due to arcade operators not keeping their machines in good working order so we could bring in our own pads or sticks to play if we choose. But thinking about it now it is also an insult to us American players because as stated before the Japanese think we’re all a bunch of console pad players and can’t play on stick because of what was seen on the pics of EVO2k4 for that Tekken 4 tournament that was held at that time. Like I said before I think we need to show a much better image as American players so we can get some good fighting games back to the states. Good news though Street Fighter 4 will be coming out this year and yes it will be 2D and in Arcades :). So there is hope 
What? SF4? Where?
:lol:
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