I thought the whole point of the Sako tick, is that there’s always a DP install in it. Isn’t that why it’s a “snail” motion? so that you input both a command throw and a DP? Correct me if I’m wrong.
From what I can tell, Ryu can’t jump out at max range unless Hawk fucked up his inputs. This is just what I’ve experienced at the arcade playing against moocus and DSP. Hawk has pretty good frame advantage on the block stun of his st.jab, where he’ll have plenty of time to do a slight walk forward to land the throw.
Nah, that’s called the SPD/DP os, that’s not the sako tick. The sako tick is actually when you use ken and do a cr short short and then cancel a standing short into a super. That’s the sako tick.
It sounds like many folks are confusing the sako tick with Hawk’s other techniques. sako tick is “s.LP, walk forward, os 360/block.” The “j.LP, c.LP, os 360/block” loop (with or without dp install) is completely different and long preceded sako’s Hawk. It doesn’t help that on one of NH2’s videos, someone refers to the latter as the sako tick and even confused NH2. If you’re not certain whether you’re using the right terminology, then it’s better to just describe the motion.
Anyway, for the standing tick to 360, you can combine the dp install with the natural 360 motion of Hawk’s walk-up tick but you have to perform the dp at the end of tick stun. If you perform it at the beginning, then you’ll have no time to walk in. And you’d need unfathomable dexterity to perform both motions concurrently. So assuming you dp install at the tail end of the jab stun, there’s still plenty of time to walk forward and 360/dp option select. Hawk’s dp will even beat most reversal specials.
However, while this technique would be beneficial, I don’t think it’s worth the effort. The motion is not only more challenging but it’s also a bit less lenient so you don’t have as long to walk. And the 360’s input leniency will disappear before the dp’s. It’d be pretty sad if you got Ryu right where you wanted him but accidentally waited too long and dp’ed as he was blocking.
The point of Hawk’s standing tick into throw is to give a safe negative edge 360 attempt afterward. Hawk can already punish just about every reversal after blocking. And a dp install still can’t punish the reversals that a normal tick can’t punish, such as Honda’s headbutt. You basically get the chance at some more damage and less block damage (only if the opponent successfully reversals) with the dp install at the cost of a more difficult motion.
Note that I’ve never seen a JP player combine the standing tick to 360 with a dp install. They always seem to use the normal motion, just block successful reversal attempts, and then punish afterward. While the Japanese don’t always know everything, that’s a good sign this addendum isn’t worth the effort in actual competition.
you can never install a dp on a sako tick. it doesn’t work that way for humans. maybe on a programmable thingy, but humans can’t do it. it would be nice, though.
seriously, u just took a few well known facts, u added to it some rare words, u trying so hard to make it look as new info about hawk.
In the world of Magic The Gathering, u r the stereotype of the dude with only mythic rares n/or rares, just to be humillated by someone with a well designed deck with very few or none bullshit cards.
Those “many” are the folks who attributed the sako tick to other techniques earlier in this topic, in the video I pointed out, and from my experiences on GGPO. If you scroll just a few posts above, you’ll see some.
Anyway, I’m not sure why you’re so envious over my knowing more ST. I was sharing info that players here seemed to be confused about and that I knew the answers to. I don’t think my understanding is particularly amazing since most top JP players appear to have similarly strong understanding of the ST engine. I’d even bet that some veterans, such as Shiki, understand bizarre exceptions to the game system that are completely unknown outside Japan.
I’ve said for years now that the west needs to catch up and find our own tricks, and it’s only been recently that players here have become more aware of option select opportunities. If I can contribute to that understanding, then the result should be beneficial for everyone. You also had the opportunity to address the questions in this topic, but you didn’t or couldn’t. If you have time to post disparaging remarks—while contributing nothing—but have no time to help others, then what does that say about your own knowledge and attitude?
I don’t play Magic so I’m not sure what your comparison is supposed to represent. From my limited understanding of that game, you have to pay hefty sums for strong rare cards. In this situation, is that supposed to be analogous to rare characters (even though ST has a fixed 16-character roster available for everyone…) or rare knowledge (even though I’m willingly sharing my understanding with others…)? I get that you’re Mexican but if you don’t have a strong grasp of English, then it still doesn’t reflect well on you when you misunderstand the point and take offense.
N once again, u dont name those “many”, when its actually just a “few” folks making the mistake confusing the terms
Seriously, u need to pay attention to what the hawk experts share here ( DSP n djfrijoles) since ur “knowing more ST” is simlply ur subjective way to c things, cuz being objective, u just show ignorance about hawk tech.
Btw, NeoRay has been so helpful explaining a lot to the before mentioned guys, listen to them first.
west needs to catch up? guys as Pasky (seriously) have provided or improved tools to learn about ST engine, so its not that drastic as u always make it look.
Few ST folks have even heard of the sako tick before. I used the word “many” to indicate that for a rarely used term, many of the folks who use it don’t exactly understand what it refers to. I don’t explicitly point out players for simple mistakes that aren’t a big deal. If you insist on it being a “few” folks compared to the overall number of ST players, then that’s fine too.
For your 2nd point, let me repeat: please improve your English reading comprehension before responding again. I never claimed that I was an expert on Hawk tactics. I just provided an answer to a question and then gave a basic perspective on pros and cons. Notice that I even said I’m not sure why JP Hawk players don’t use the dp install with a sako tick. I agree that NeoRay could help more with Hawk tactics, if that was actually the question, which it wasn’t in this case. I understand the ST system in general and that was more than enough to answer djfrijoles’s question about the viability of a “sako tick plus dp install” with facts.
If you object to any part of my original post, then you need to at least indicate what you believe I said wrong. It sounds like you’re confusing “objective” (the facts I gave of how Hawk can incorporate dp installs within sako ticks based on input leniency frames) with “subjective” (your unsupported random comment about being ignorant). And I still don’t understand why you’re wasting your time (and mine) trying to attack or troll when you could have helped everyone yourself, brought up actual issues with my explanations, or just shut up to let everyone else understand ST better.
And yes, while the knowledge gap is decreasing year-by-year, the west still has more to go in catching up. There’s no reason only a few English-speaking ST players can immediately quote whether something works and why. Pasky’s overlay and debugging have been excellent for confirming previously untestable knowledge and for helping folks visualize the system. Although the overlay hasn’t told us anything that the Japanese haven’t already known, I do believe that it alone (well, combined with the earlier version that displayed special move frames) is enough to show folks how the ST engine operates.
Even with our new tools, I still like to personally help everyone out with what I can when I have the chance. While it’s not a direct correlation with actual playing skill, knowledge is definitely something players could learn to improve their game. And if you have the knowledge, then show it and share it with others. Just looking above, you sometimes answer what you can and other times insult other players and nitpick on definitions. If anything, you seem like the type of person who ought to make a change to become a more productive member of this community.
Well, djfrijoles was apparently just trolling so we kissed and made up. Our short conclusion: sako tick with dp install is technically possible (hold LP~MP~HP, counter-clockwise 360 from forward, f, d, df, hold f, release HP~MP~LP, db) but competitively inviable (because the 12 frames of leniency from the end of the 360 to the LP are already hard enough to time out of hitstun and walk forward as it is to add in an additional dp motion).
