That podcast was a fucking waste of time. what a buncha douchebags. “meh…some people are worried about dudleys VA…oooo we’re all holding our breath for hakan” jesus. not one useful question about the gameplay mechanics itself. im pissed, i want my 20 minutes back or however long that sonic garbage took to piss out of my speakers.
on that note, we should have more positivity here and less arguing! “if you had worked together instead of against each other…you might have been successful!”
anyways let me just say a thought about ultra 2 and lets see if we can all agree on at least this point about ssf4 bison because there are some people that seem to still not recognize how game changing ultra 2 will be for bison whose worst matchups are against characters with a strong projectile zoning game:
from what we can all guess, psycho punisher will work in a similar fashion as abel, chun and seth’s current ultras. i think we can all agree on this, full screen or not. once bison gets ultra 2, the pace of the matchup will change drastically because one of the opponent’s key zoning specials will be completely obsolete. if anyone ever plays as abel chun or seth, you will know exactly what im talking about. as the game has evolved these ultras still work the same goddamn way. The point of having these ultras loaded and locked has nothing to do with landing them, that’s simply a bonus for when your opponent fucks up or when you can combo into them (pointless for seth and very risky for chun). the point of having them is to limit your opponent’s options while retaining yours plus one (the ultra itself).
If you play as seth, abel or chun you can attest to how much the matchup changes once you get your ultra…and this is against good players. stupid players will throw fireballs and you will ultra them, but thats unimportant. good players will know not to throw fireballs and that is the key, having the opponent forced into playing into your game is the reward for having ultra 2 and it happens by default because bison is at his deadliest at poke range, the range at which the game will be played once ultra 2 is loaded. Bison’s new ultra will most definitely change the pace of a matchup more than when ryu or sagat get two bars and ultra…you aren’t jumping in on ryu or sagat when they dont have ultra and you aren’t doing it when they do have ultra. youre a bit more careful and they’re more dangerous but you don’t lose any options you already lack before they get the bars and revenge meter. with bison’s new ultra however, the opponent will lose an option they could use with impunity prior to your revenge meter getting filled against someone like ryu or sagat, they are reduced to having two specials only. bisons ultra 2 is a big buff in itself, and i think we should all be positive about ssf4 bison with this change alone.
Hey guys, hopefully Jago doesn’t mind me quoting him here, but he gave me some info on SSF4 Bison. “roundhouse supposedly has god priority, his ultra is like a whiff punish and short is supposed to be crazy easy now because of plus frames…everything else is the same”
I still have my fingers crossed that DR/SD/HS/PC have some sort of improved hitboxes or something not noticeable right off the bat… I’m wondering if the changes to roundhouse will be reflected in his slide and jumping roundhouse…i could see slide being potentially safer (safe slide would be so sick), faster or whatever and jumping roundhouse having better priority (hitbox, angle, whatever way you want to think of priority). These aren’t huge but they are definitely significant changes. man i just wish that instead of making good things better they would have just taken things that were kind of shitty and actually made them more useful. i’ll still wait until release date or some sort of full on review of bison changes to make up my mind, but im happy we’re at least getting buffs rather than nerfs. Look at what they did to poor Gen…at least we’re not receiving the same retarded treatment and as like a poster said earlier, bison will be getting better not worse, so that’s something to be happy about.
So the damage boost mentioned earlier wasn’t even true? That kind of sucks.
I wonder if they slowed down any of his other normals do to frame advantage on c.lk . Would be very nice if c.lk to c.lp was more practical now because that’d give him more damage potential overall.
I don’t really get the roundhouse part…I’m assuming he means standing roundhouse but everyone already thinks that has great priority so I’m not sure exactly what else they could do besides speed it up even more or improve the hitbox so it’s even better as AA.
I actually hope he meant slide but I doubt it or else he’d likely say that. Many people can block slide on reaction because of the long startup+travel time, then you die. I don’t mind the recovery but I think it should be sped up just a bit.
I have to say though that no changes on PC is retarded. They could’ve done something as simple as add 50 stun to all versions or like 10 damage to all versions. Or like you said gave it a better hitbox and sped it up slightly. Without ex its easily one of if not the worst special in the game, right next to Devil’s Reverse.
Really it does seem like he was most ignored throughout development and it kind of shows with the lack of information. Maybe they’re killing him off in this game?
I hope they at least fixed the shoto’s ability to evade DR and SD risk free with c.mk. If not that’s a pretty huge oversight…you can’t even punish them for it when you know they’re going to do it.
no, no, we didnt even discuss damage, the ‘everything else is the same’ was in regards to me asking him about DR/SD/PC.
now take it with a grain of salt man, this isnt from andre’s own play of ssf4 bison, its from what he has heard on the grapevine, most likely from someone that wasnt paying much attention so things like hitboxes, stun and all of the stuff that isnt apparent superficially probably wasn’t checked out. i still have hope that these things will receive some changes, at least PC…no need to mourn bison, he’s getting buffs not nerfs so i dont see how its a eulogy at all. if he’s getting improvements, whatever they are, that’s a good thing.
For some reason I dream last night that SSFIV came out and that Bison had a Taunt like Dudley’s except he threw a wad of Bison Dollars. Damn, I want that so bad now.
Sounds good to me. I am still hoping for PC changes/damage boost also. It’s going to be sooo good that people will not be able to mash DP through cr. shorts.
Faster PC is all I would really want. It’s the move that made me play Dictator in the first place. I can live with a less loopy DR, even though that, once again, is a part of Bison they took away. A faster PC would go a long way to bringing back his aggressive feel.
I just don’t get why stuff like the Hadoken and Shoryuken have been untouched over the years as staples of the series, yet Bison’s moves have seen such a wild ride in every variant of SF.
Last I checked, Shoryuken was always a crouching to upper flying uppercut that varied on button strength, had ridiculous priority and did decent damage. Hadouken has always been a staple motion that also varied by button press, travelled full screen and could be blocked. With red variants on Ryu and Akuma. A fake was added in HDR.
When has the properties of these moves been changed? Has the Fireball ever not been full screen? Did it ever go upward, float around, then explode? Did it freeze the opponent? Did it wobble?
Compared to Bison, who has had his Devil’s Reverse be completely different in ST, Alpha and now 4. Same as his Psycho Crusher (Removed completely in one of those games) how have the Shotokan specials been truly that different from game to game? Why have they had some semblance of stability, yet this has not been the case for Dictator?
You could have checked this yourself. A quick overview of the changes on Ryu’s DP over the years (I’m not going to list every change):
CE: LP and MP DPs knock down.
SSF2: HP DP knocks down.
ST: Less active frames, no longer fully invincible, can be thrown out of them.
SFA series: LP DP no longer invincible to lows, DPs have less invincibility frames and are much unsafer on block
SF3 series: Little to no invincibility, bad priority
CVS/CFE: Didn’t touch shotos on those
SF4: Similar to SF3 DPs but with SFA-ish invincibility, HP DP seems to have a bigger hitbox than the SF3 version.
I guess I’m talking about how a particular move functions. Not it’s internal stats or frame data or whether it knocks down or not.
Have you played Bison in ST, then Alpha, then CvS then SF4? Have you seen the variations of nearly every special move he’s had in these series? How Headstomp works? How DR works? How they move? How they are expected to land? The timing that is needed for Skulldiver? These aren’t changes like invincibility or whether something has active frames. These are complete reworkings of the move. Akin to making Ryu do a running DP like Sakura from one game, to having the Dragon Punch go straight up instead of the flaming arc.
I don’t really see how they even compare. I mean you’re in the Dictator thread so I assume you understand what I’m talking about. I hope I don’t have to make a video. :3
So, PC being much unsafer on block and DR not crossing up are “complete reworks” of them and DPs no longer being invincible not ? DPs were so bad in SF3 they would often get stuffed if you used them as reversals. That didn’t happen in SF2. No sir.
I think what he’s getting at is they’re different mechanics behind the moves. DPs more or less always move in the same way: they’re vertical AA moves that can be used as combo enders and usually although not always benefit from fairly high priority. Shotos will always have their core moves though: DP, FB and tatsu and they will pretty much always do the same thing although their properties may change.
Bison has had a weird history where moves have been completely taken away (Crusher, Banish and Shot for example), changed to the point of not being recognized and had their intrinsic functions completely changed or removed. It’s not to say that nobody has ever seen a move change or anything else but usually those changes are minor in comparison. The only other character that I can think of that has had this as bad as Bison I think is Chun - her fireballs have gone from full screen to really short range, her SBK and upkicks has often disappeared entirely and interchangeably and she sometimes gains hazan sho and sometimes not. It’s not that they’re the only characters to gain/lose moves (Gief had that move similar to rose’s in A3 for example) Let’s just say there have been more liberties taken with the Chun and Bison design than there has been with Ryu.
Am I the only one who doesn’t care that c.lkx3 is “easier”? Sure it was difficult when I first started playing but now I rarely miss it except in the cases that I misjudge the range and my opponents are pushed too far away… This “buff” doesn’t seem very useful to people who could land the link anyway.
S.HK being “godlike” is something I don’t trust. Everyone except Bison players think S.HK is godly, but it’s just that we use the move properly that makes it look so good. Is this guy who gave this information a good Bison player who could make a proper analysis, or does he main another character and is kinda just passing down things he’s ‘noticed’?
PC is very unsafe on glock, extremely slow startup/speed, and has a bad hitbox. DR doesn’t cross up, has a fuckton of recovery, and often seems to have no hitbox at all. Both of them are easily among the worst moves in the game, somewhere around the top of the list.
Honda’s headbutt moves much faster, has a WAY better hitbox (can even work as AA), and is safer vs shotos and other characters. And he’s suppose to be more of a fat power character and Bison was suppose to be more about speed. So on top of that he still has the damage advantage.
Look how fast Blanka can shoot across the screen. I see no reason why they couldn’t leave PC more like sf2. They mustve really fucked something up with the startup in the original SF4 beta if Bison was always able to get out for free with it since it wasn’t quite like that in sf2. Did they give it NO startup or invuln? Regular pc didn’t need any of those. So long as it had some sort of startup how could the beta testers not just meaty/throw Bison during the startup?
Like I said way earlier in this thread the least they could do is give it a slight stun/damage boost to make up for the fact that it’s otherwise horseshit. Then at least Bison players would try to use it more in combos/as punishment. As it is now it’s near worthless.
I’ve seen dudes drop that link in high level play alot. Yeah I agree for those who know how to perform the link 100% its not worthwhile, but in truth that link should be very easy to do right off the bat, for the low damage the combo does, not to mention most of the cast Crlk x4 ani’t that big of a learning curve don’t see why M.Bisons has to be.
I think whats more important than the link itself is hopefully they just added an extra frame or 2 of hitstun. If they did this then a combo of c.lk c.lp s.lp. c.mk xx whatever or c.lk, s.lk etc would be much more viable than it currently is. That’s assuming they decided they didn’t add frames to c.lp for no reason.
Things that I feel are integral to a characters “feel” are constantly changed from one game to the next, making it difficult to really integrate a character that one could love aesthetically for years. I mean, in ST if you did a DR you could fly over someone, then come back and land the arm, or pop in front of him to confuse him for crossup. In Alpha, this was completely different, flying downward directly with both fists at a sharp angle. In CVS2 it was more ST like, with a sharper “popping out” motion similar to SF4, but with the mixup of crossing up an opponent if you wanted to. In SF4, the crossup mixup completely removed.
I just hate how characters like Bison, and his moves are considered so easy to trifle with. Chun-li has also suffered this quite a bit, different Fireball mechanics, Spinning Bird Kick completely altered (HD Remix anyone?) stuff like this people would consider unimaginably blasphemous if done to Sagat or Ryu, yet characters like Claw have had all sorts of modifications done to their game, their normals, etc.
Just making a point, I originally started this by just wishing his PC was faster at a minimum. To get back the quick full screen movement of the Psycho Crusher that was fast and flying and made Bison such a scary threat. The guy was a mobile beast. Free flying, confusing and deadly. PC being quicker, would cause people to be wary of it as a full screen counter poke as it used to be.
That or a faster teleport, but, honestly I’ve given up on the teleport being modified. I would rather have it removed tbh. The teleport is one of the things Capcom has balanced this character around to justify making him slower or having less mixups. I’d rather it go away forever if we could get a fraction of his shifty movement from before.