I’ve seen that idea tossed around before; that instead of making her not have stores at all, just make MK and HK Fuha latent abilities, but make LK Fuha a store. Hell, even I can agree with that. MK Fuha is a valuable combo extender which leads to a lot of her decent damage, and HK Fuha is a great combo ender/corner carry that makes up some of her more advanced stuff, particularly for V-Trigger starters. But the fact that she has to charge them each time wastes time and effort. I honestly somewhat support the idea that LK Fuha should be the only charge, because on its own the fireball has great flexibility and it’d be broken if she could just throw it whenever, so honestly if it was the only charge, that’d be cool. Imagine all the time you’d save if you had MK and HK all the time. Combos would still require the exact same execution, and they’d still be unsafe specials, but they now don’t require an arbitrary charge. And remember, in SFIV, Juri only had fireballs; 3 of them which you had to hold in order to use. However, she effectively has 2 special moves locked behind a charge. Imagine if air divekick and parry in SFIV were charge moves, imagine what that would have done to SFIV Juri. Something to think about I guess. This actually leads me to something I’ve been meaning to do, I’ll post about it soon.
(You’ll have to forgive the speech-like nature of this text, as it was script for the video version of this, which you can view here: https://youtu.be/jVavXiZD-1Q )
So as you likely know, I love Juri and I think she’s a very competent character in SFV. I have defended her from the very first time she released back in July 2016, and I will continue to provide content for her on my YouTube channel. However, I too can agree that she is in need of help; not drastic, insane changes, but just that little push to be in the right place within SFV.
Often, people post about radical buffs and misguided changes they want for Juri, which would either ruin what makes her enjoyable to play, or create whole new balancing issues. I have always had my own personal wants for the character, but I had never felt like they were significant enough to demand buffs for her. That said, upon listening to several Juri players, and those interested in her development, I can see common themes between them. Which leads us to this.
I believe that those of us who genuinely care for Juri in the game, those of us who love how she plays and are simply disparaged by her shortcomings, we all want Capcom to do right by her. As such, I am compiling a list of buffs/changes that several different Juri players would like for her, in order to produce a definitive list of potential changes that could honestly benefit Juri herself.
Like I said, many before have demanded hyperbolic reworking to Juri’s entire gameplan, but I often disagree with these, and I would hope these wanted changes are from Juri enthusiasts, players and tech creators, all whom have the right idea for what she deserves.
So far, many Juri players agree that the season 2 changes were the right step for her, and what is needed next is for her hit-boxes to be adjusted properly, and for her Fuharenkyaku charge system to have the right pay-off. With this project, I would like to note down any and every suggested buffs/changes you would like to add to the list, and eventually I will gather all these together and find common ones (that are reasonable), and from there it will form the definitive list, based on what the Juri community wants. I won’t just defer to my own judgement for this; I will keep the discussion going and make sure all our ideas are represented.
In the end, whether or not Capom notices this group effort, or even changes Juri in any meaningful way at all, I would like to represent a fair and balanced perspective of what is necessary to finally place Juri where she needs to be. So any help with this is appreciated. If you would like to be credited for your suggestion, let me know and I’ll add your name to the buffs/changes you list. Eventually, I’ll release a video (sometime in July 2017) detailing the final list.
I would also like to add that if you believe Juri is fine how she is now, then that’s ok. Realistically, I don’t believe this alone has the power to make Juri change, so I wouldn’t worry about her getting something you definitely don’t want. It is still a nice way of seeing where the community wants her to go.
Nearly got my Juri to Lvl50, only her and Alex will have that priviledge thus far.
I think changing them in either direction would be fine. Either remove the charge requirement for MK/HK, or give them buffs to make them worth the charge.
If MK was a comboable overhead that could be made safe, that alone would be worth the charge to me.
HK I feel like could have quicker startup on its ability to eat projectiles, so you can power through a boom on a good read, or just buff its damage/stun so that her combos actually do more damage than other characters basic combos.
Right now they are only worth the charge in the sense that you are handicapped without them. the idea of her main design being a handicap is a pretty bad one. I will compare her to MODOK who I mained in Marvel. Cubes were akin to stores in a lot of ways, but they were not a detriment if he didn’t have them charged. They simply opened up more options when you had them, but he worked completely as a character without the charging mechanics that they provided.
Ok I don’t understand, I’ve been saying recently a change I’d like to see would be that each store charges you 2 different release:
light store gives you light and medium
medium store gives you medium and high
high gives you low and high
Or literally any mix and match you like; or even use 2k to store to different releases and use 3k for EX
I’ve been called dumb for saying that though yet I see people saying make MK and HK not stores, wich I’d be totally down for, but I doubt anyone at capcom would, it would make her too easy (I’ve been going through Chun learning in the last 3 days and holy fuck Juri is much easier to combo with)
Oh and yeah, Alex was fun, but not my dood, the IIIrd strike skin made him much more appealing though, I’ll learn him slowly
The middle ground would probably be just flat out buff the releases to make it more rewarding for when you do kill momentum to store.
Another thing that could be fun is just go Anime with it and really rip off Jam. Change store to qcb P or d~dK to allow for leveling up charges. Release would remain qcf +K and without stores either does The default release we already have or whiff taunt/gimp move because capcom.
So as an example:
Lvl 1 mk release is what we already have. Lvl 2 adds overhead, lv3 adds frame advantage or ground bounce.
Lvl 1 hk is default, lvl 2 added damage, lvl3 wall bounce?
Crap like that. Maybe allow us to hold the store attack i.e. Qcb[P] for a slightly larger attack to not only change the properties of store(more active frames, pushback, more juggle points?) with a bonus of storing more levels if it hits or absorbs a projectile.
Yeah my koolaid and wishful thinking be strong yo.
MK and HK being simple specials instead of stores seems reasonable. In that case though I’d love to have her old storing mechanic back for the fireball to make up for the lack of stores you can do. Because right now there’s no way to cancel the fireball without using it, so you can’t just store -> store -> store in situations where the store kick might actually be more useful than the fireball.
Buuuut as that won’t ever happen I’d be okay with the changes mentioned. MK release in particular seems like such a weird move to lock behind a store.
Stores either go entirely or stay and get buffed so they are worth it imo.
From a design point of view i do not understand at all what’s up with Juri’s store specials. They made it so you need manage another resource ( because that’s what it is basically ) in order to try to be on par with everybody else. Feels like you are fighting the character itself not just the opponent.
I keep hearing developers in most games saying that they hate low risk high reward scenarios or hate when the player does not feel rewarded for the time he puts in. Well guys ( capcom ) you need to reevaluate Juri’s stores in this scenario,because it sure does feel unrewarding for her double store combo to do less then Cammy’s 2 x cr mp into arrow /dp.
@JusticeSoulTuna
Hey, great initiative you got going, regardless if something will come of it or not, atleast we can try to bring to forth our concerns that something needs to be changed.
I’ve posted these suggestions a TON of times and people are most likely sick of them, lol, but i atleast think some of them have merit in addressing Juri her issues while keeping her current gameplan, not redesigning her.
I actually like her current store and release system, so i would rather see her keep it instead of makig mk and hk “regular” specials, or her starting with all her fuharenkyaku specials. I would prefer them being improved and having more utility while still having to somewhat work to get them in the first place.
Main issues i have with Juri in my honest opinion, without nitpicking:
[list]
[] Hitbox, Hurtbox and Pushback issues
[] Fuharenkyaku(stores and releases)
[*] V-Trigger
[/list]
HITBOX, HURTBOX AND PUSHBACK ISSUES
[list=1]
[*] Counterhit Pushback removed
This is one the biggest annoyances i’ve had with any fighting game, it causes so much inconcistency and forces Juri specifically to use LESS damaging combos than if it was on a regular hit.
She’s basically getting punished for doing the right thing…counterhitting people with frametraps or on wakeup. This doesn’t just affect Juri but many other characters, however Juri in particular.
Her st.mp, st.mk link is virtually useless in many matchups because of it.
[*] Standing medium punch pushback(st.mp) decreased
Juri her st.mp is her go to button for upclose pressure combined with her lights. Unfortunately st.mp(having its range reduced sllightly in s2 lol) has very little range and very large pushback. Her ability to frametrap with it is VERY limited with its short range, big pushback AND the counterhit pushback. st/cr.lp, st.mp go to frametrap, however often st.mk will not reach if the light or st.mp was counterhit.
Starting pressure with st.mp when blocked leaves her with previous little opportunities to actually convert into anything meaningfull. st.mp(blocked) only allows for st.lk realistically, however after that you cna’t convert because nothing else reaches on counterhit. She has to use st.lk and st.mk to stop 3f normals but they give so little reward it doesn’t deter anyone if they know the matchup.
Having its pushback decreased allows her to land her st.mp, st.mk link atleast consistently even with the counterhit pushback, it also opens up her ability to actually convert from frametraps. Juri is especially weak against standing 3f lights.+
[*] Crouching heavy punch(cr.hp) more consistent AA aswell as slight horizontal increase, changed from -5 oB to -2oB
Cr.hp almost a completely useless normal for Juri, the fact it also is one of the CC normals only emphasizes how bad it is because there is no moment you can actually use it aside from punishing obvious attacks that have a CC state during recovery AND give you a long time to punish.
You cannot anti air with cr.hp, it is extremely unreliable, it either gets stuffed or trades. Rarely is it a clean anti-air. You can’t anti air too early with it either as its range is short vertically and horizontally. Big chance if done early it just whiffs resulting in you eating a full jump attack. It’s intended as an AA because during VT it gets an improved hitbox, the intention of cr.hp is ovious but evend during VT it is still very unreliable.
Can’t use it as a frametrap tool because its range is shorter than her light attacks, can’t use it after a blocked light because throw techs make it whiff. To top it off, it’s -5 on block and for long the blockstun of this move is and from the range it needs to be done, it is very easy to punish. So, you cancel into a safe special such as her Fuharenkyaku’s(store) or releases…which forces you to not make use of the CC state if a counterhit occured.
It should be a FAR more reliable anti air and its horizontal range should be increased to a point Juri can atleast hit a person that is throw teching after a blocked light, it should be -2 at best. She should lose her turn on block but not punished for even attempting it.
[*] Medium Tensenrin(dp+mk) made more consistent as an aa
It still gets stuffed as an anti-air during the Beta eventhough it supposedly has invincibility against jumps. Apparantly the invincibility portion works correct but there is a GAP between attacks when she moves upwards where there is no hitbox. The medium tensenrin gets beaten by jumps if it’s done somewhat early(not aything outrageously early). These type of tools need to be consistent in a game where jumping is such a viable tactic.
[*] V-Reversal improved hitbox and active frames
Juri her V-Reversal constantly whiffs against longer range normals aswell as normals that go a bit higher. The v-reversal animation is very low and has short range. The startup speed is fine but it is active for only 1 frame! What is up with this ridiculousness. It isn’t somehow good enough to warrant only 1 active frame while every other character has 2 active frames or more.
Spending 1 bar of a VT only to have it fail is infuriating. Again the inconsistency and obvious thoughtlessness of Capcom when designing her v-reversal shows.
[/list]
FUHARENKYAKU(STORES AND RELEASES)
[list=1]
[*] Fuharenkyaku(store) horizontal range increase
This is honestly one of the big issues that holds Juri back, the incredibly short range of the fuharenkyaku store. While applying her limited pressure she has to commit after a single light attack immediately. Which limits her ability to convert into bigger damage if the frametrap was succesful. If the frametrap was unsuccesfull then it puts her in a lovely -2 scenario almost pointblank in the opponent her face, making Juri have to guess between throw or a button. Especially dangerous if it’s a good opponent who will use a CC normal to catch delayed throw and button teching. Just to get 1 store she basically has to willingly eat a 100 damage throw OR risk pressing a throw tech or another button only to get counterhit(perhaps even crushcountered)
Fuharenkyaku(store) whiffs after 2 lights, so she can only do 1 light before st.mp/mk. What iff the st.mp was a (counter)hit, then she just missed a potential opportunity to get big damage.
Juri should be able to do light, st.mp, st.mk xx fuharenkyaku(store) so it is in range to be blocked or it hit. It only does 30 damage by itself t not even speak of whiffing a 31f normal in neutral just to get a store.
This way she can do a frametrap and see if it’s succesful, if not then go into a store and then lose her turn, if the frametrap was succesful she can get more damage without having to spend EX bar for EX Fuharenkyaku.
[*] LK Fuharenkyaku changed framedata -2 oB -> +1 oB and +1 oH -> +5 oH
Most of the time Juri would want to have a lk fuha stored as it is a pretty good tool to set the pace i the neutral game. It is needed because of Juri her below average normal attacks(aside from st.mk). This tool however only travels 1/3rd of the screen before it dissipates, doesn’t cover true horizontal range as many airborne and projectile invincible moves can go over an through it. The entire thing is negated by backjumping unles she has a lvl2 vskill or a read(dash up twice + anti air). As it doesn’t have true horizontal space control like a hadouken or a sonic boom has you cna extend limbs high limbs that go ver the projectile and catch juri her forward approaches. It has many holes, as it should. It is without a doubt a good tool but its ability to set the pace in neutral isn’t anything impressive either. Regardless, and now my bias for USFIV Juri creeps up, i think it some frame data needs to be changed, mainly for offensive purposes. Juri isnt a zoning character, she is somewhat slippery, if she isn’t going to be a zoning character then more things need to be adjusted towards offensive purposes to be atleast decent in SFV.
Currently Juri her LK Fuharenkyaku is -2 oB and +1 oH. Honestly it should be +1 oB and +5 oH. Making it mainly effective when done from very close ranges, ability to use either lights or combo into st.mp or st.mk. Juri her cr.mp and cr.mk are 6 frames so she won’t be able to link those afterwards, unless very specific situations with unique spacings such as in corner or the opponent is crouching. It’s a tool that requires a store yet is negative on block and doesn’t allow allow a combo on hit(aside from VERY specific scenarios and isn’t even worth it in the corner if you have a HK Fuharenkyaku stored).
Argument basically is that having her lk fuha be +1 oB and +5 oH is more variety to her offense and frametrapping, while keeping the high technical ceiling that now aso will reward the players a bit more, especially in the corner. Her damage output will still be low unless she has her stores available and/or the corner.
[*] Medium Fuharenkyaku changed framedata -4 oB -> +1 oB
The payoff of storing her mk fuha is allowing her to combo from st.mk or st.hp. st.mk when landing a succesfull st.mp which requires Juri already to be pretty much pointblank, so after a jump, succesfull knockdown, dashup etc. It mainly comes into play after having take a risk already or having done a punish. For the risk it requires to get a store and how little mk fuha is used, and the payoff it gets it seems skewed. There are basically 2 options, making mk fuha an overhead or making it + on block. Making it an overhead for the range it has seems silly and definitely not something that SFV needs more off. I however am in favour of making it +1, so it atleast gives a chance to start pressure from it. It’ll be similar to Akuma his f.hp, but Juri her mk fuha has a bit more range, worse hurtbox as it doesn’t avoid and low or mid height normals, and its locked behind a store so she can’t throw it out whenever she pleases it.
It needs more utility instead of simply being a special that basically used after a punish or post stun scenario.
[/list]
V-TRIGGER
Juri her V-Trigger is intentionally limited in every way, so much so it’s main use is combo extension which only works from point blank st.mp or b.hk, and improving her neutral slightly. Not worthy of of a 3 bar VT and honestly this is what should be Juri her defining mechanic aside from her store. You can’t use it perform any mixups with, can’t use it for long combos as they scale way too much, can’t use it to apply pressure as every chain is negative, can’t use lk fuha to confirm as it knocks the opponent down etc. So it’s mainly used to optimize her st.mk and st.hk normals in the neutral.
Solution is to make it 2 bar and leave it as it is now, which i’m pretty sure no Juri player wants. OR keep it as a 3 bar without the numerous restrictions so her VT is an actual threat and allow players to be creativity:
- VT shouldn’t drain when using chains, only stored specials
- VT should allow command normals and TC’s during chains
- VT should allow chains to be cancelled into regular specials
- VT lk fuharenkyaku should NOT knock down.
*scaling should still be high
LOWER PRIORITY ISSUES
[list=1]
[*] Overhead changed from 0 oH -> +1 oH
I assume Juri her f.mk is 0 on hit because of its range, similar to Karin, Vega and Rashid. However it’s made -6 on block and there are plenty of longer range normals which can punish it with relative ease.
It seemed to be a universal change that in S2 characters were atleast +1 after a succesfull overhead, except this isn’t the case at all. Yet the change from -4 to -6 on block was made on all overheads(ibuki and chun being the exception because of their slow startups)
[*] Crouching medium kick(cr.mk) slight horizontal increase, comboes into lk ryodansatsu
Juri lacks good normals, which obviousely is done as a tradeoff for her lk fuharenkyaku, but she needs a good low attack that has atleast decent range. The current payoff is mainly light tensenrin, otherwise she has to spend meter or use a hk store. Walking back against Juri is a good tactic combined with standing 3f light. Low damage conversion fom crouching cancellable normals is fine however this doesn’t matter if the range of the crouching normal is so short.
Crouching medium kick should have a slight increase in horizontal range so she has more normals to use in neutral than just st.mk
*cr.mk should be allowed to combo into a light ryodansatsu because as it is currently stands that special is completely useless
[/list]
Good discussion everyone, and thanks for the detailed post @LockM . Honestly, if I could ask for anything, it’s for Juri to remain the same but have the right payoff for her effort, OR for them to say screw it and let her go nuts like the rest of the cast. I like her as she is, and I’ve had fun. But it’s somewhat depressing to switch to Mika and do so much better for half the effort. I’m of the belief that a fighting game is fun when every character is strong and has some dirt, and while current Juri does have some stuff she gets away with, it’s never substantial enough to make the difference for her. I get that we’re all afraid of her being scary or broken but I’ll say this right now: I will play this character no matter what, and if Capcom finally gives up trying to restrain her and makes her broken, you best believe I’ll be the first to ride that all the way. Cause it’s been a lot of effort surviving with her in s1 and 2, and one day it might be worth it all. And if people try that ‘top tier whore/ you picked her cause she’s good’ nonsense, well I have a whole year’s worth of YouTube content to show them about the struggle, haha.
So while this list I’m compiling might not make any difference, it’s a good gauge of what people want. In fact, I can confirm that the vast majority of people who messaged me want her hitboxes to be better, and for her Fuha to be there at the beginning of the round.
I like her gameplan, design and her moveset. I just dislike how some of her moveset functions, riddled with inconsistencies and intentional limitations and overall skewed risk reward.
If i have to limit my suggestions to the absolute core i think these will address the majority of her issues:
[list]
[] st.mp reduced pushback
[] fuharenkyaku(store) increased horizontal range
[] lk fuharenkyaku made +1 on block, atleast +4 oH
[] VT lk fuharenyaku not knocking down
[] VT not draining during chains
[] cr.hp improved hit/hurtbox so it is a good solid aa and enough horizontal range so it can be used for frametrapping
[/list]
Personally i think making her have her fuha stores in the beginning of the round is a cheap and lazy way to address her issue(which is the path Capcom will take) while instead i would rather see improved utility on these attacks. As well as having better ways to get these stores. Make them worth the risk.
I have another suggestion which i’ve had since the beginning Juri came out and that is all the stores Juri has at the end of the round, she takes with her to the next round.
I just want Juri to be solid, technical with a high skill floor but even higher skill ceiling, and overall FUN where i can lab with her and can get creative.
At this point i’m absolutely certain there is nothing more to explore to Juri that “suddenly” might make her more viable. Juri doesn’t need more time, she has been figured out already.
Juri is a very incomplete character. Decided to play the game again for a week and saw this immediately. The 2 things she has that are really good is her walk speed and range. She can play old school style footsies and whiff punishing easier than other characters.
The game is still absolutely terrible in its current state and I will now go back to not playing it. Just sharing my $0.02.
Pretty much everything LockM said is a must to fix her, but I just gave up I dont think capcom has plans for making Juri any good not this year at least.
As a way to somewhat avoid the counterhit pushback you can do some alternative path in getting stores while still “optimizing” your damage on hit.
In situations where you would do a light, st.mp xx store, do a light, s.mk instead IF you already have a mk fuha stored.
You hitconfirm the light attack and do the st.mk regardless, you cancel into a store if the light was blocked or a regular hit, you combo into a mk fuha if the light was a counterhit.
It’s not that hard because the motion is still a qcf. I’ve also seen GentlemanThief do this.
Juri dead last in Capcom’s official Street Fighter 5 match up chart, popularity rankings for April put Zangief in top 4
I like this idea.
- Her vtrigger should be… you know what, everything that @LockM said. Look at Mika’s vtrigger. It allows you to defend, attack or extend your combos. How is that fair for a 2-bar vtrigger? Normal moves consuming vtrigger bar is… not fun. Now, my fear is that Capcom would justify her questionable design saying something like “well, in the story her new FSE is weaker, that’s why she’s like that.”
- Frame data for some normal moves should be adjusted so they are faster. Cr.HP and st.HK. We understand Juri is supposed to be a nimble and agile fighter.
- I also agree with LK fireball being the only store needed. And her fireball should have more range so we can have a little room to play with setups.
- Give us these costumes capcom plz!!
http://i.imgur.com/6nvmay1l.png?1
wrong topic 
Yknow that last line kinda hurts me, haha. Cause real talk, my vid content has slowed down and I haven’t played SFV in a long time, because while I said I wouldn’t focus on the game anymore, I still spent time labbing it up with Juri, but I’ll be 100% transparent: there’s nothing there. Everything I try to learn will either turn me back around to something I already know, it’ll be a very minuscule variation on what we know, or I’ll hit the game’s limits. And try as I might, nothing I discover is meaningful enough to make a vid, and subsequently it won’t improve Juri. All i’ve done has been to further Juri’s development and give people the information needed to utilize her to the best of their ability. But it is at the end of this journey, nearly a year later, that I’ve felt the harrowing truth that Juri, while fun, was doomed not by her design, but by Capcom’s inability to figure out what to do with her and the painfully limited system in SFV. And as it stands, they seem to not be making any moves to do so. Paradoxically, they’ll give her costumes, but otherwise, they’re too busy giving Gief a parry and Cammy an air-grab, to properly take a look at Juri. The reason I even brought up this project was because I realized Capcom all-but abandoned Juri in this meta, and while I’ll gladly keep taking my lumps and play her against my better judgement, I refuse to let all our effort in developing her go to waste. Cause we’ve learned all we can, and there’s little more, and Juri is such a fun, unique character. So what we NEED is for that effort to mean something; for the payoff to be substantial, like it is for the rest of the cast. Deep down I still believe SFV IS what they promised it to be; ‘rise up’, promote your own style. Juri is proof of that; a technical character which allows a surprising depth of self promotion. So I believe she needs help to plant her alongside the rest of the cast, so that her design cannot be forgotten. I know this came out like a speech, so apologies for that. I may have lost faith in SFV, and I’ll likely be just playing GG Rev 2 and eventually Tekken 7 from now on, but despite all that happened, I never gave up on Juri. And I never will.
In my eyes she is the new Dan by design, you got to get good with what she has and learn to play on handicap. Well at least KOF XIV is on steam already 
We’re actually going through the same thing. This is crazy lmao. Playing Persona 5 and then coming to SFV was brutal. I even told myself “well, at least the season 2.1 patch should be out by the time I finish Persona 5.” It still isn’t out and I finished Persona 5 almost a month ago. A thought hit me shortly after that: “What am even going to make for season 2.1?” Juri’s changes are so minuscule that there isn’t much to cover. I don’t want to stop because there are people that watch my videos and believe in Juri, but damn. It’s not even a matter of SFV being limited, I actually feel like Juri is limited even within the confines of SFV. You ever go into training mode and do something that should, could and would work but it just doesn’t? That’s SFV Juri. Playing Karin again has done more harm that good, too. She just feels complete.
Tekken 7 should serve as a nice pause, but I don’t want to call it quits on Juri, At least not until I have Marvel in my hands.
Not really a Juri change specifically, but something that I’ve been thinking about lately.
Many people including me, feel that crush counters in neutral feels very random and has skewed risk/reward.
All succesful crush counters only +2 after a dash - This would mean no dash-in combos after a long range crush counter, but you get to keep up the offensive pressure/bait throws etc. which falls in line with the rest of SFVs overly offensive philosophy.
All crush counters -4 on block - Poorly spaced crush counters can get punished.
You could still get a CC combo if you did it close range/point blank, but there’s now an actual risk attached to doing it.
Of course this would vary a bit from character to character.
I feel like this would be a pretty simple fix over all and make the neutral feel more satisfying and less “random”.
What do you guys think? Should CCs just be removed entirely? Or would this change hurt the game more than help it?
