Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with you. There is a very real threat of having a cr.hp focused and eating a combo (same with sweep but a bit less of a risk), but its something you just gotta feel out. Finding that sweet spot where you have a lot of range between you and cammy but where you can still hit her with cr.hp can work wonders. You can sneak a few in there, obviously you shouldnt use them in excess but if youve got good footsies you can most certainly pull it up. I feel like cutting these moves from your arsenal in this mu is just gonna further let cammy have her way with you, and if she is just wrecking your shit due to your use of these moves then just be more reserved with them. Its high risk but i feel like it deters cammy from bullying you to hard.
How do you play footsies/control space in this match? Ive tried lots of different things, feel like my problems with this mu stem more from getting bodied by 3f jabs and ex air drills than anything else.
Just some match videos, didnt look at these incredibly thoroughly but they provide good context for all of this
[media=youtube]YoFsoFlhkzE[/media]
I’ll try to record some matches sometime this weekend for discussion. It’s hard to explain the difficulty of this matchup without seeing it played correctly by cammy. Both LPN and Kbrad have good Cammys, but they are far from optimized. Neither of them seem to know the matchup to great detail. For example ex.messiah fadc back is free U1 for cammy but LPN doesn’t punish. Both are using divekick mixups off of back throw, so either they’re not confident in the unblockable setup or they just don’t know it. And they are using combos for damage instead of optimizing for stun.
As good players continue to play and refine cammy I think you will see the matchup evolve to what I’m talking about here.
Even though Alioune dropped quite a few combos, this match is a better depiction. Any round Ricky won either he got in early and didn’t make mistakes, or Alioune dropped a combo. And this is with him only landing the unblockable successfully once. Imagine if he had hit it the other 3or 4 times.
Yeah thats generally how that match goes, when i say that cr.hp and sweep are options i go to i dont mean that i believe that the match is in rufus’s favor. I think cammy wins this fairly convincingly, i firmly believe its winnable for rufus but it is by no means easy, 4-6 imo. When there is an extended neutral game i think rufus has decent enough normals to play footsies with cammy, even then he’s at a disadvantage though.
I feel like there are some things thatll develop is this mu to make it a bit better for rufus, im not the best with it but i hear that st.mp is the way to go with normals and ive been looking around for some other technology and ive seen some pretty crazy use of cst.hp.
[media=youtube]9rR-zU2PLjc[/media]
Also i feel like the choice by kdr at 2:35 is huge. Opting to maintain corner control rather than use it for pressure is one thing that i think we’ll start to see more rufus’s doing as this mu develops.
Does anyone have a good strategy for fighting backdash after a divekick in? Primarily vs vega. I just can’t seem to find an OS that will catch his backdash with anything. Sweep, st.MP, and exGT seem to be too slow. Any thoughts?
Just wanted to show some of the Cammy v Rufus stuff, finally recorded a little. My Rufus was not on point that night (too much Fei Long), but you get the idea.
Some new info, if you quick rise after an anti-air dp it’s a free hooligan into unblockable. That includes dp fadc dp. Quick rise = very no.
Sweep, ex gt and ultra os should all catch his backdash. If you mean his backflip then that’s trickier, personally I prefer to either os a forward roll to keep the pressure on, or you can just punish it on reaction. Both his backflip versions have a lot of recovery so you have plenty of time, the only problem is doing it too early whilst he’s still invincible.
Forgive my ignorance in advance as this isn’t something I’ve looked into. I normally just mash cr.jab when I see a hooligan coming but I have been caught on wakeup even when I’m crouching. The only thing I found that worked was jumping, but if they time it differently it doesn’t catch you crouched but will catch you in the air. Is that what was happening in the video, or is it something different?
I have tried using both of them, but I can’t get them to work. Maybe I just need to do it tighter, but I haven’t managed to make it work once. For the Sweep, crLP has 8 frames of recovery and sweep has 12 frames of startup. Vega’s backdash is 22 frames, this gives you 2 frames to work with assuming your jab would have hit on the last active frame, a realistic scenario would be 1 frame to work with. After a divekick this could be tricky. I should probably work more with exGT, maybe if I make it tighter he won’t block it.
It’s uncrouchable, you can beat it with ex messiah, but you only get the 1 hit. It’s a bar well spent if you forgot and accidentally quickrise. It can be beaten by an uppercut, which is why you don’t see it often. But it beats out everything non-ex in Rufus’ tool box and grabs you in the air if you jump.
So if Rufus has no meter he can’t do anything? I’ll have to check this out in training mode at some point, seems really busted. I guess you could ultra as well but still, that’s messed up. I don’t know why I’m so surprised, I guess it’s not much different to plenty of other situations where Rufus can only escape with meter, but at least you can block them. Oh wait unblockables, nevermind…
I’m slightly confused by your mention of cr.lp as to whether we are talking about a divekick os or a ground os (e.g cr.lp - cr.lp/sweep)? I’ll just cover both anyway as they are worth talking about
From his divekick Rufus can os backdash using sweep/ex gt/ultra on any member of the cast. The key part as usual with anything Rufus does is timing the divekick.
On the ground Rufus can do a cr.jab/sweep os on everyone but Cammy and Fuerte as their backdashes are too fast, although it is tight on Vega, Chun, Rose etc. Going solely on the frame data as I haven’t tested this it looks like you should be able to ex gt/U2 on everyone but Fuerte, and U1 works on everyone!
QUOTE FROM WIZZLE:
I have tried using both of them, but I can’t get them to work. Maybe I just need to do it tighter, but I haven’t managed to make it work once. For the Sweep, crLP has 8 frames of recovery and sweep has 12 frames of startup. Vega’s backdash is 22 frames, this gives you 2 frames to work with assuming your jab would have hit on the last active frame, a realistic scenario would be 1 frame to work with. After a divekick this could be tricky. I should probably work more with exGT, maybe if I make it tighter he won’t block it.
This probably isn’t going to help at all but ive started to deal with really good backdashes via walk forward throw, only problem is you’ve gotta KNOW that they’re going to really dash back. Works well against vega due to the speed of his dash, especially the flip. Against people like rose and chun its a bit harder…
Also, gonna take this time to throw out that as of now im fairly scared of both the bison and fei mu’s. Against bison even with meter its incredibly hard to get out of the corner. Also st.rh wrecks rufus’s shit HARD. Fei is just a bitch to play footsies with, he just controls the flow of the match/space with rekkas and chicken wing so well. Any advice on either match is appreciated, especially considering chicken wing rekkas and bison roundhouse.
Btw, totally random but i checked the leaderboards randomly the other day and im directly below you for rufus mubress, small world eh
lol my b on doublepost btw, apparently i cant quote without quoting everything in the post?
This probably isn’t going to help at all but ive started to deal with really good backdashes via walk forward throw, only problem is you’ve gotta KNOW that they’re going to really dash back. Works well against vega due to the speed of his dash, especially the flip. Against people like rose and chun its a bit harder…
Also, gonna take this time to throw out that as of now im fairly scared of both the bison and fei mu’s. Against bison even with meter its incredibly hard to get out of the corner. Also st.rh wrecks rufus’s shit HARD. Fei is just a bitch to play footsies with, he just controls the flow of the match/space with rekkas and chicken wing so well. Any advice on either match is appreciated, especially considering chicken wing rekkas and bison roundhouse.
Btw, totally random but i checked the leaderboards randomly the other day and im directly below you for rufus mubress, small world eh
Hehe small world, it’s a shame it’s not small from a connection point of view Although we’ve never actually tried to play have we? I guess we should as the Rufus mirror is so much fun! If u have room I’ll add you next time I’m on. and you should be able to delete stuff from the quote that u don’t want, I can anyway.
Your right the Bison and Fei match-ups are tough, although they do have to play it the right way unlike other worse mu’s (I don’t have to name them anymore do I).
For Bison his st.hk is a bitch, if they are abusing it then they probably aren’t looking for much else so you should able to concentrate on sweeping them. If not then as annoying as it sounds u really do have to stay patient. Keep walking forward or jumping and your just going to get kicked in the face… My general advice is to pressure him hard when he has no meter (I’m sure u know that), cr.mp against his devil’s reverse/stomp follow-ups and cross him up when you get a knockdown so he can’t ex psycho out.
Fei is a much tougher mu for me, if they keep the pressure on and you get pushed to the corner there isn’t much you can do. Neutral jumping obviously works against rekkas but can be caught by chicken wing at the right distance/height. I personally try to jump-in as much as possible to begin with so they are at least thinking more about anti airs and less about pressure. It doesn’t work against everyone but it’s worth a try
One of the more helpful things in the Bison match is if you can stay in the sweetspot just outside his s.hk. If you can get their rhythm down, walk just a fraction in range, and cr.mp counter hit the s.hk os’d with fierce gt. It can score you a quick knockdown to work from. Unless they’re looking for it (haven’t seen someone yet), the whiffed cr.mp is rarely punished. They’re usually too worried that you’re in that close to risk anything but normals.
Not a silver bullet, just something to have in your back pocket.
Sounds like a plan, id be down whenever. I wouldnt mind getting an all rufus lobby going at some point
yeah sweeping seems to work best given you can stand outside of the roundhouse range while being able to wiff punish. Seems like going ham when bison is meterless is a pretty good place to start though. Ive been working on using st.mp for that actually, less of an answer for st.rh though (generally i use it deter endless scissors). Guess i try using some of this os tech next time.
and at this point ill try anything to get in fei’s head, i like establishing a precedent and then breaking it (and what rufus doesnt like jumping in?). Fei’s focus is really what screws rufus in this match imo, totally shuts down sweep and cr.fr. Ill prolly try the same thing with jumping as with the slow normals, maybe catch em with a few throws messiahs when i get in and they’re focusing. Thx for the advice guys!
Anyone know if all of the stuff in the OP is still accurate. I never read the Gief portion and there’re some really interesting things there regarding green hand ON HIT. Is it all still accurate?
Lol you don’t need to waste an EX bar to escape her holligan throw on wake up and it’s not ‘uncrouchable’, the reason why you might be getting grabbed with it on your wake up is because when characters in sf4 wake up they stand up for 1 frame or 2, the way to prevent this is by doing a wakeup crouching move; cr.mp and cr.jab works well, this will always beat her gimmicky holligan throw on your wake up guaranteed. no such thing as a free hooligan.
Although we’ve never actually tried to play have we? I guess we should as the Rufus mirror is so much fun! If u have room I’ll add you next time I’m on. and you should be able to delete stuff from the quote that u don’t want, I can anyway.