Specific character strategy comes into it as well; when I am online and playing a Dudley, Guy, or Cody, and they are trying to win by running away and zoning, I assume they have no idea what the hell they are doing. It isn’t that you can’t win that way with those characters, but their skills are suited to a more aggressive, ‘in your face’ style. When I see people playing over defensive with rush down characters, my assumption is that they are skipping learning that character in order to use a strategy which is low risk, and will lead to more wins than fighting up close. Most people who play online just want to get the most bp/pp possible, so that means not losing, which means not taking chances, which means throwing a lot of fireballs and turtling. Everyone has a right to play the game how they see fit, though.
That’s exactly the question you should ask, because then people can actually help you. You didn’t mention your character, but assuming you play Bison
a) Focus absorb Hadouken and dash forward.
b) Head Press if you anticipate a projectile.
c) Ex-Psycho Crusher absorbs one projectile and hits.
d) Ex-Double Knee Press will go through most projectiles.
e) There is usually a distance, where it is unsafe to throw hadoukens because the recovery is too long, especially if they are early telegraphed. Jump over and punish if they become too predictable.
The reason why I made this thread is because I’m guessing with the rise of youtube, many players have chose to adapt a more rushdown style of play. And of course there is nothing wrong with that. But as a result of this, anyone who doesn’t play rushdown is automatically considered a newb who doesn’t know what they are doing. I have never heard so many complaints about zoning, keep away, or turtling strats until after the big youtube craze. Now we have players with no solid defense, who do nothing but press buttons all match. And to a degree, it’s annoying because these players never block. It’s like anytime I want to do a wakeup flashkick I can. And I really hate being in that situation, because what happens when I do play against a solid rushdown game which doesn’t rely on just mashing buttons endlessly.
I don’t think the view of the depth of turtling, keep away, are really even emphasized anymore. And as such, I think the player base really suffers. I mean, when I do play online, it isn’t uncommon to find people who know a character’s bnb combo, or a mixups or two. You can tell they’ve put time in executing this stuff. But I think there is something wrong when I play 50 Ryu players, and none have a good zoning game. Almost all have jump in offense, and almost none block low. I find it really bad when the same Ryu player gets knockdown and wake up with sweep. Or if he whiffs his first instinct is to press sweep. A move that’s highly whiff punishable, and UNSAFE on block. Why is it that these Ryu players aren’t playing him properly, why no zoning game? because we will see tons of youtube videos show people how to do combos with Ryu, or a mixup, but never one that really teaches a zoning game with him.
I mean there are many Ryu’s who can’t even reaction DP. Now I’m no Ryu player, but I CAN reaction DP just fine. And that’s a damn shame. I mean I went online recently with my secondary character T. Hawk. And I just have all sorts of Ryu and Ken players jumping at me, trying to rush me down. So this also tells you that although they may understand that T.Hawk is a threat of close, they have no idea how to beat him at a distance, or even play a keep away game. The ones who would try would do nothing but throw fireballs. Jump back into the corner, making them easy counter.
The knowledgebase of the our player base is really deteriorating. It’s like every player just hastily want to control the offense in the match, and when they are put on the defense, they have no idea what they are doing. That’s why I felt compelled to at least explain why people use keep away or turtling strats. Because people don’t really understand different playstyles and strategies. And I think people automatically hate what they have a problem dealing with. I mean the play to learn excuse has been ran into the ground. If you are interested in “learning” then learn how to break a good defense, or how to out position a runaway game. Those are things to learn. But I guess learning really translate to “I want to play people who I can do my combos against”.
but that’s my rant on the topic.
Lots of good observations. We live in America, the land of Jerry Bruckheimer and instant gratification. We want our food, movies and matches to be done in 2 seconds flat
-My opponent doesn’t run into my offense
-my opponent makes me run after him, eating chip damage and playing the clock, all the while, taking me out of my so-called offense
-my opponent blocks everything I throw out instead of exchanging hits with me
wa wa wa…you biggity bitches give legit new folks a bad name. If a guy spams fireballs, you DONT have to block them. You can jump strait up, or you can throw your own projectile. If you still have to block or take a hit, it means you can’t charge back/throw a hadoken as well as you’d like to think and thus, aren’t as pro as you’d like to think you are. The clock and chip damage are elements that are just as important as that one fADC combo you practice for hours and is the only thing you can do to validate your weak-ass game
learn to play and quit the bitching.
And now its a flame war. Interesting how Branh0913 started this thread to help noobs (like myself) better understand the concept of proper and skilled turtling, and then here come the self proclaimed daigos and justin wongs running in saying “QUIT BITCHING SCRUB! L2P YOU SUCK LULZ! JUST GET IN THE PLANE! YESSSS YESSSSSSS!” Honestly guys, this thread was to help explain that turtling is NOT constantly running away doing nothing, its a well though out defensive strategy which involves reacting upon your action.
The knowledgebase has improved thanks to the internet, but the players have deteriorated. People are dumber than they were during the first fighting game fad 15 or 20 years ago. They have no attention span and need constant stimulus. Look at how many kids are diagnosed with behavioral disorders. It used to be there were one or two booger-pickers in every class that might have been on some kind of hyperactive medication, but now it’s half the class. School curiculums have been progressively and significantly dumbed down to accommodate this new ‘norm’, but half of them still graduate high school functionally illiterate if they graduate in the first place. The dropout rate is higher than its ever been.
I’m not exempting myself from criticism since I’m a product of this environment. I’m just trying to figure out why the average level of play at my my local 711 in 1992 was higher than what I see in many tournaments today and why online play on Xband in 1995 was on a whole different level than online play on Xbox Live in 2010.
I realize zoning and turtling CAN be skillfully used. But its the matches where I do neutral jumping, evading, and/or flinging projectiles back and we spend the whole damn time canceling each other out because they are content to sit in the corner and do nothing else. I realize I can improve my own skill by practicing against this strategy that I have a hard time with, and once I do I’ll probably begin to like this type of play because I’ll know what to do to counter-act it. In the meantime it’s still boring to me and unfair to the other players waiting to play when the group I play with generally gets about 20 minutes of play time every few hours during work. It’s supposed to be casual, fun-time not I’m-in-tournament-finals-and-must-not-take-any-risks…time. 
My room mate plays Cody. He’s decent. You would hate him. He would zone you with rocks, and get you to jump in and you’d eat that sliding anti air attack. And if it works, he’ll do it to you all day, and that’s pretty much all you’d see from him. I assume I’m correct that you’d use the same thought process that he’s playing an “in your face” character, but not playing up to his potential? That’s a good thing for him. Because say you get in and he unloads the big damage, you weren’t expecting that.
What I’m trying to get at here, is that you’re wrong in assuming anything about your opponent. I expect that everyone I play is at least at my skill or way higher. Because I make that assumption, I sometimes get beaten by the flow charts. It works, I get frustrated, and try to adapt. Do I make a comeback? Sometimes. Does it stop me from assuming basic skill or higher skill from my opponents? No. Because that’s what I want. But I could be wrong. Those flowcharts? Maybe they’re trolling me. Maybe they see that I’m falling for this and running with it. When I play Fuerte, and see a person can’t deal with the Tostada Press, I will spam the hell out of it. If it works, damn it, I’m using it.
I don’t see quite that way either. We all get mad at losing, but getting too upset over a 25 cent game will win you nothing. I don’t play in tournaments so winning isn’t that big a deal to me. I play these games the way those old people in the park play chess. Just because it’s fun to play with other people and because you can turn a seemingly simple match of street fighter into something amazing with just a little thought.
What I mean by this is that most of the mainstream sf community does this. They do it because players like valle, noobtecks and the rest tell them to play this way. They’re their heroes, so of course they’re gonna listen. I could care less about their way of playing. I don’t want to be a street fighter celebrity I just want to play some interesting matches.
i disagree with your first two sentences, them being the only ones I read. I’ve yet to meet even 1 sf4 player (vanilla or chocolate(lol)) that made me block more than a string of fireballs.
I’m a very old school gamer, and I grew up playing SF in arcade. Definitely one the people who were part of the original crowd when world warriors was released. The thing is, I’ve witnessed every frustration that people complain about in FGs. I’ve been lamed out to no end by stupid tactics. I remember back in 1999 I went to an arcade, and I was using Charlie. I had practiced some nice combos with him. This one guy came there with Adon, and just did the off the wall jaguar thingie, and did cr.mk all day. I lost to it about 7 times before I figured out how to beat it. Now was this guy a bad player? Maybe. The thing is, I’m sure he didn’t put much thought into that strategy, but he was beating my Charlie who I used in training mode a lot. Now back then I bitched about this, and talked about how he had no skills. But the reason I lost 7 times is because I did not respect his tacticks. Sure I wanted to get in there and do my combos I trained to do, but he just wouldn’t let me. Eventually I had to try some new things, like anticipate his jaguar kicki and flashkick him, And I airthrew him. And learning to beat that guy was a way more valuable experience than going to training mode doing combos all day.
There was one time I my life, a previous life when I was heavily into Marvel. Now at this point I came to terms with my defensive gameplay. But I remember the best guy in the state in the game came down to the arcade one day and beat me. Sure his Sentinel was beast, he knew fast fly and unfly with Sentinel. But the thing that made me feel that my game was shut down completely was he defended against everything I did. I felt I just couldn’t land a hit on him. I couldn’t take one game from this guy. But I did beat his Sentinel, only to get destroyed by his Iron Man. But I had to really think to beat his Sentinel, because his Sentinel didn’t play in a way that said “hey just hyper viper beam me all day”. Now I never became a competitive Marvel player as the 3 tournaments I attended I got murdered and came to the conclusion it wasn’t the game for me. But I learned a valuable lesson that day, and I think since then it moded me as a player.
You may hate a keep away and turtle game, but it makes us better as players. We all can claim we are having fun, but that's subjective. We may have fun just running at someone and doing combos. There may be another guy who has fun running away and baiting you out. There may be another guy who has a good time blocking everything you do and teching all of your throws. You can't dictate what's fun for everyone else based on what you perceive as fun. Whether you like it or not, SF is a competitive game. FGs are competitive overall. And of course you're going to deal with people with competitive mindsets, and that means evaluating risk/reward scenarios and playing it safe. If you want to be able to do whatever you want to do with no recoil, then play against the computer all day. Or at least find a group of scrubs who are willing to bend over so you can have your way with them. But you can't in all reality ask a player who wants to win to play the game your way. Because he wants to win. So if you hit him with a mixup or setup, don't expect him to continue to get hit by it. He's going to just not put himself in that situation.
The thing is, I think turtles and runners exist to take yout game to the next level. Our linear, predictable offense is basically put on blast. Our lack of thought and setups are now pretty obvious. Or lack of thought and strategy is put in the spotlight. what we thought made us good players just doesn't work. And now we just become miserable bitter players because what we thought was a great strategy, or great gameplay really isn't at all. We learned all this stuff in training mode only to get beat by some random Ken player on XBL who just jump back heavy kick in the corner, or who random DP use anytime we get close, or better yet just throw fireballs across the screen. And then only reason you get beat by it is because you aren't thinking. so tell me, if you're winning with no thought on how your opponent is playing. Aren't you every bit as scrubby and flowcharty as the Ken player you messaged and called a "pussy cock sucking fat?" Truth be told, none of us will be better without some self-introspection. It isn't up to them to change their game, but up to you to change yours. The ball is in your court. You either find new ways of winning, or get out of the game.Branh, why do you feel such a need to have your style of play validated by the forum? It seems like you are trying to convince everyone playing a run away game is legit, and I don’t get it. I think you have made your point several times over, don’t know who you are trying to convince.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I really put it up for the sake of discussion. In a way, I think I’m making a small contribution to help newbs who may not understand some things. I mean, there is a lot said for getting a stick or dealing with a tactic. But I do think contrasting playstyles is a barrier that newer players come across, and I think it’s a huge hurdle to jump. I also don’t think many people have talked about this at all. Or if they have they’ve sounded condescending, which I must admit, my last post was a bit condescending. And I guess my point is, you reach the point in your time as a player, where you need to think. And I think people have problems with these styles, because their execution outweights their ability to think. It could be a moot point, but I felt that I had to at least bring it up.
Branh, I wish I could tattoo your post under my eyelids so I could have that quick inspiration in the heat of the moment… too bad I don’t think it’ll all fit.
Seriously though, that’s probably the most honest post I’ve read in awhile. I’ll try to keep it in mind as I mentally scream profanities at the turtle in the corner.
Uh… its great if you don’t care about winning, but you can’t turn around and then complain about the playstyle of people who do care about winning. There’s something to be said for trying to get as good as you possibly can at this game. If you don’t like it, then play with people who also don’t care about winning.
I did say I want to play some interesting matches didn’t I? What could I possibly find interesting about chasing a player around? Really? I don’t choose to play against people, I’m stuck with what I can get but with my “complaining” I continue to get my point across hoping that maybe, JUST MAYBE, it’ll sink in one day and you won’t run away from me when we play. It’s not like you can’t turn it on or off when you want to. You are that capable of a player, right?
Also, I don’t know if you noticed but I never said I hate LOSING to players like that, I said I hate playing against players like that. I’m not gonna say I never lose to it but I will say I don’t lose more than win against players like that. Except at UCR. I did lose more than win there.
It seems to me that your issue with defensive players is primarily that they simply don’t play the way you want in that they are not giving you what you feel to be interesting matches. I don’t understand why you use this as a justification to write them off as a bunch of people that don’t know what they’re doing or lack confidence, skill, or a game plan. Those are entirely different matters.
Unfortunately (for you, I guess), Street Fighter is a competitive game. The vast majority of people playing are in the game to beat their opponent, not create some sort of art on the screen. More often than not, competitive and thoughtful play really isn’t all that interesting. This isn’t limited to video games, but to pretty much everything else. You’re basically like one of those people that complain about MMA fighters on the ground hugging each other for half the match because you would like to see some fancy Wushu moves. Be it MMA or video games, people are ultimately going to turn to what they find to be the most effective way of conquering their opponents, not what looks the prettiest or makes the game most entertaining for spectators. Your entire speech about improvement vs. winning doesn’t apply to these people because winning IS improvement to them since that is the goal they’re striving towards. Anything else is just superfluous frills.
Your conflict seems to stem completely from the fact that you have different goals in the game. You’re probably the type that prefers to achieve complete mastery of a character (learning every single combo regardless of whether you’ll ever use it or not, etc.) whereas most others simply prefer to become better competitive fighters. And no, the two aren’t synonymous as Bruce Lee and just about every MMA fighter since has taught us… Either path is an admirable one, but being on one path doesn’t give you a right to judge those on the other.
It’s perfectly fine to hate playing against defensive players and feel bored doing it. But you can do so while at the same time acknowledging that the opposing player may actually be a good player whose reason for playing defensively may go beyond relying on it as some sort of crutch.
dander is pretty awesome :lol:
Anyways, my only problem with keep away players. Mainly in SFIV cuz I never have this problem in any other game ( I actually have effective counters). Is that once I’m pressuring them they feel the need to mash the jab button or just mash in general. Like whiff a fucking throw -----> mash something usually sweep or down parry or something equally stupid and fucking annoying.
Now, I respect defensive play more than blind offense as well. However, I feel that most people are incapable of rushing down properly so they flock to characters with guaranteed keep away options where they can play robotic and just hit their button which acts like a guaranteed anti-air (for example balrog crouch fierce). I don’t respect formulaic type of playing.
The reason why rushdown is so obsessed over is because it’s so difficult to pull off properly. In order to properly rush someone down not only do you have to be aware of their options but you have to respect their counters at all times. Also, while you are sucessful at pressuring them you still need to be aware of the possibility of them coming back from you making a dumb mistake. The risky balls to the wall type of play is attractive because everyone knows in order to properly mindfuck someone you need to be one step ahead of them at all times, which is difficult for most people.
I enjoy defensive maneuvers when they require thought, and are creative. Like for example Kuroda doing jump back parries in response to crossup/jump in attempts.
[media=youtube]vQ4XlXDGxMk[/media]
What I find really uninteresting, and I can’t really feel any excitement over is down back Balrog just sitting at sweep range reacting by pressing sweep/crouch fierce. I mean theres little thought being put into that type of shit, and it isn’t really difficult to pull off. Also mash jab…
Also, I do agree that the OP is always trying to justify himself needlessly.
I find this to be true as well. Everyone picks ryu/ken/bison/akuma/balrog/guile because mash jab = win online. Then they play in a tourney and get annihilated and say WTF!