Decent turtling takes skill, I think. You need to know when to tech, when to counter (and what to counter with), how you can get away (should you want to), when to block high and low. It also takes a great deal of patience.
Let’s play with your basketball analogy. Your team is up, you want to run down the clock. Does it take skill to effectively do this? You betcha. You can’t let the team get a steal off of one of your guys, can you? Something like that can turn around the game in an instant. (Combo?) You don’t want them getting the rebound after you shoot with a couple of seconds left on the shot clock, but it could happen. (Counter?) When they get the ball back, you can’t just sit there and let them score. (They’re GOING to try something you may not expect them to do.) A few good plays and you may find yourself on the other side of that turtling strategy.
See this scenario i LIKE and i may reassess my own beliefs about turtling if this is how its done right, thought process and all. I think my vision of “turtling” really lies in a guile/boxer/chun holding :db: or just running back and not moving until the opponent does. I have a feeling players like myself who are quite noob think of turtling the same way and thats why they complain about it. I had the misconception that REAL turtling was what i saw in this video a while back on youtube. It was a vanilla tourney where 2 hondas literally held :db: for 99 seconds. I guess i can assume that that is not turtling lol.
Friggen love how you brought my analogy full circle haha. Thanks for the explanations.
Really, I think “turtle” is a misnomer because a lot of turtlers play aggressive in that they are opening and closing so many doors that if the turtler guesses wrong they get a loss in some form or another be it positioning or life. Many people associate turtling with defensive play. It only looks like that because the turtler isn’t the one jumping in taking an anti-air in the face.
That was turtling, but you have to also understand a few things, like the honda matchup. I’m not 100% sure on this, but I’m pretty sure Honda can punish a headbutt with a headbutt. He can also punish a jump in with a headbutt. And a backdash with a headbutt. You’re going up against a person who can do everything you can, and you know full well that ANYTHING you do will get punished immidietly. Thats what happened there, both played smart the first match, neither wanted to barely get chipped and lose the match. Their reflexes were on edge the entire time. When the clock hit 0, both had a sigh of relief, and immidietly planned out there first move for the next round.
And what I described for the 2nd scenario was one of many instances I’ve seen in live tournament play. Though, the one I described was actually an Akuma with that life lead, and much more blocked overheads and techs were involved, but you get the idea.
This post right here, this post irks the SHIT out of me. You say they are using running away as a “crutch” and yet, here you are using EXCUSES as your crutch. Rather then learning to fight a style you don’t like, you’re using your lack of intuitiveness, as it were, to figure out how to beat them. Willingness to accept defeat is YOUR crutch.
Why do people turtle? Because that’s just how the balance of SFIV works. It’s so slow, and the game mechanics favour defense (I mean shit, you even get a free ultra if someone should attack you). The fact that reversals are easier to do, and that there are different wake up speeds (eg quick stand) make pressuring a knock down (offense) a big risk. So people just sit back and wait for people to get frustrated or impatient, and just anti air whatever they do (because the walk speed is so damn slow it’s impossible to walk up and throw someone for example).
I never hate on Dhalsim running away from the start of the match—he HAS to. It’d be like trying to play Balrog from full screen----you just can’t win that way, as you need to get in.
However this is where I draw the line and call you a panzy/lady/sissy/dbag. Match starts and you are playing Ryu,Ken, or Sagat. You move back and then proceed to unload 100000 fireballs. I try to get close and bait out uppercuts, and instead you jump back to keep doing more. I take the risk to jump in to get to you and you uppercut me, and then proceed to hurricane kick your way away from the corner to keep doing 10000 more fireballs. THIS is turtling and in the form of you are ruining the game for others. You haven’t even SEEN me hit you once, but the start of the match THIS is how you decided to play and will keep playing game in and game out.
I get upset with Guiles who do the same, but I understand that to a certain extent he has to as he is a charge character, but when you do it with Ryu,Ken, and Sagat? Come on…you know you can’t even FADC and just like to be a douche online then brag to your cleft lip helmet wearing friends that “I R T3H BEST STREET FITA EVA!”
If you play like this then die in a ditch. No excuses.
Edit: To add it would have been nice if Capcom had included some form of guard break system. It’s such a pain to finally get to these people and have them on their toes, but they can just block everything I try to throw in and wait for a moment to mash out a dragon punch. Stun should work if a person is blocking too, but maybe not from projectiles. Heck maybe people would turtle less if there was a get off me thing you could do. Say trade a good amount of stun meter to push your opponent back 10 feet or more. Sort of like Goukens reversal move for everyone in a sense, but if they use it at a poor time or don’t take that time to take the advantage of their opponent they will get stunned in 200 points.
I like SF4, but I far from love it. There’s been so many fighting games with better systems put in to achieve balance play and encourage players to meet each other head on. I’ve also never liked the focus system, because it’s not intuitive to just “do it” at the right time. Parry was so god like because you did it as you fought, but focus seems like(for me anyway) I have to mentally tell myself, “let’s do a focus attack here and see if it works.”
Some fighters imo have to be played as a turtle playstyle there is no choice in the matter ie sim. But when poeple use characters like guile who can easily rush down and they just turtle throwing out SB’s and FK’s if you jump over well that type of play requires no skill at all. Happily though most guiles i have seen have not addopted this playstyle.
At the end of the day everyone has their own playstyle be it rush turtle or just grabbing the shit outa people the aim of the game is to win the fight nothing else and if it pisses people off in the mean time well i guess thats their problem not mine.
Play the way you want not the way the socially acceptible crowd expects you to play.
Is anyone else disgusted that the general consensus in this thread is that proper zoning is frowned upon? “zomg he fireballs and dp’s my jump-ins, he must be a noob with no skill”. Please.
^ /concur. If the turtle strategy worked with ‘no skill’, why doesn’t EVERYONE at tourneys turtle because it ‘requires no skill’?
There are many ways to get around this, imo, you aren’t trying hard enough if they’re a problem.
It’s easy to mash out a DP in this game, but it’s also so much easier to punish if you bait them to.
SF2’s iterations would have so many more people of this age complaining due to fireball traps (offensive turtling?) and tick throw loops.
2 cents, less a penny from a bad player. If sh*t’s annoying, then find a way to get around it, or accept that you’re no better than your opponent.
I find it mildly amusing that everybody thinks he is entitled to decide what courageous gameplay is and what isn’t.
They probably sit in front of their TVs and yell at a runaway Akuma “Come back here you chicken!” :bgrin:
Oh well, no wonder people don’t improve with that sort of mindset…:clown:
I have no problem with turtling(One of my mains in ST is Guile for goodness sake), I only frown upon a turtle who has no idea how to start an offense… if a Guile gets someone in the corner he isn’t supposed to jump backwards for example lol…
But people that are salty because they lost to someone who knew exactly what they were doing need to man the fuck up and deal with it or stop playing fighting games…
The worst part is, as i said before, noob and average turtlers are easily baited with FADC, giving you enough time to punish and repeat. hehe gotta love trigger happy FK guiles.
See, that’s your problem. You have an idea about what another player is “supposed” to do and as soon as he does not play according to your imagination, you claim he is bad (and probably lose the match).
I don’t care what my opponent does. Develope an adequate strategy and win - that’s the right answer, not complaining how you lost because somebody did not play the way you liked it.
First off why was this made in the n00b thread? I guess you wanted to get the point across to people learning the game or something.
Other than that…both runaway and rushdown have a lot of strategies involved at high level. Good rushdown is not mindless rushdown. It relies a lot on frame traps and baiting things like throws and reversals. Bad players use mindless rushdown cuz they don’t understand the frames of what they’re rushing down with.
Huh? Not starting a corner pressure game after placing your opponent in a corner is an adequate strategy…[media=youtube]oH1rOL5hB9s"[/media]stands in the middle of street and waits for a car…
