The reason why people play keep away and turtle

Newbie Saikyo Dojo
1

So anyway, as we all grow as players, we ultimately come across a playstyle that we hate. For me the style was rushdown. I always hated someone who rushed down at me relentlessly who never gave me time to think of a strategy or gameplan. They just get on my ass and hit buttons relentlessly. I know I still to some degree hate this style of play, but I had to learn to beat it.

Basically, you’ll find a lot of players who hate keep away and turtling strats. I can understand why. You go into training mode, and you spend hours busting out some sick ass new combo, or some sick mixup. The only problem is your opponent has to be willing to get hit. I’ve been here before. I use to play games on my home console, find some nice new combo, but then get turtled to death when I went to arcades. It was annoying.

But I look at it this way. Your opponent goal is to make it hard for you to win. If he sees you hit a 50% combo all the time everytime, then hes going to fear you up close. So what options should he use? The best thing he can do is notice you don’t seem to have an effective strategy from full screen, so he’s going to run away, and keep his distance. Basically he’s going to insure you can never close in on him to get off your nice flashy combo. And why shouldn’t he do that? Afterall, if he does what you want him to do, then technically he’s giving the game to you.

You have to think about it like this. There is no reason to be so self-absorb but to not understand that you both want to win. And some people are comfortable in certain situations on the screen. For me, full screen away is where I prefer to fight. I have a load of tactics that I can use full screen away. But not everyone is going to get into a gun fight with me, some want to swing at me at full distance. I have to ensure he can’t do that to stay in my comfort zone, and make it hard for him to win.

If a lot of so called rush down players had it their way, their favorite opponent will be someone who gets in close to them and try to outswing them. It’s not a great strategy from both ends. Think of it as a pendulum. You want to wing the favor your way as much as possible. And part of what makes the game deep is using strategies to do this.

I guess people never emphasize strategies. I know back in my arcade days, to beat the guy who blindly rush me, I had to learn patience, and learn blocking. I also had to use zoning techniques and spacing to bait him into a situation where he’d run into damage. Hell I even had to learn to set up combos that way. And also work my reaction time. After awhile this became my favorite opponent, because it was never an easy win. I had to work for it, and beating an opponent who makes you really have to pull out the stops is the reason I continue to play.

I think newer players need to respect why their opponent is doing what they are doing. Your opponent doesn’t exist to be your punching bad and personal combo exhibition.

2

This is entirely true and I wish I could copy and paste this message to every single person that sends me hate mail over PSN for the way I play.

We all have different levels of ability and particularly for beginners, this level of ability has a bearing on our playstyle. Each style of play has its benefits and downfalls. Becoming a good player means being able to adapt to whatever style your opponent chooses and punish the weaknesses in his play.

I admit I’m not a great player and there are a lot of times I’ll turtle because I might not be confident in a certain matchup. If I happen to win, I get hate mail for being a “coward” and staying away throwing fireballs and if I lose, I get hate mail for being a “newb that’s horrible and should just quit playing now”. WTF? It’s like I can’t win.

People need to grow up. Win or lose, it’s your job to adapt to your opponent’s play whatever it may be. It’s not your opponent’s job to play exactly how you want them to… If you lose to what you feel is uninspired play, get over it and improve. If you win, then WTF are you complaining about when you’re the winner?

3

because they can’t learn up close. They use running away and the excuse of “strategy” as a crutch for their lack of intuitiveness. Rush down players aren’t called rush down players cause they get close to you and start pressing buttons It’s because they have a plan for all things up close. Running away isn’t a strategy, it is the lack there of, hence the reason you are uhhhhhhhhh RUNNING AWAY.

I won’t deny that it has become an accepted form of play here in the states, but only because everyone has placed more importance on winning over learning. Rush down players usually have more varied forms of fighting where as keep away players/ turtles will only win a certain way.

4

The amount of players over Live who just seem to wedge the joystick in the Back position constantly is kinda tragic.
I got nothing against a legitimate and innovative Turtle playstyle that forces you take risks, but always walking back into the corner and never pressuring on knockdown!? :o

Weird.

5

Oh I thought this thread was a complaint about turtling in general, I was about to say ltp, but the turtle play style never involved backing yourself into a corner lol… the corner is the absolute worst place to be for any character…

6

Pressuring on knockdown isn’t always a good idea. For one, you don’t pressure grapplers on knockdown or people with DPs. There are some wakeup happy players, so getting too hasty on wakeup means you lose life and a positional advantage. Sometimes it’s good to wait for them to wake up with something unsafe so you can punish. Everything isn’t so cut and dry. I personally never pressure shotos on wakeup, because I’m really afraid of wakeup DP, or worse, wakeup ultra.

But this isn’t just a SFIV thing. Anyone who had good reversal timing could screw you up hard. And getting knockdown in that game was a bad thing.

And what is innovation really?  Trying something new?  Why is it always necessary to try something new in a match?   I mean turtling is a difficult strategy to implement.    You have to constantly stay at the perfect distance, and find a way to move or bait your opponent.   Sometimes there are players who don't respect your position, and do something unsafe, so you have to constantly keep them in check.  Know how to counter things and at what distance, and having the right reactions to do it does take practice and execution.

And to Dander, how are you not planning when you play keep away?  There is no 100% safe keep away strat.    If I was playing keep away with Sim, I would need to anticipate when my opponent with jump and find a answer for it constantly.   Try to do this, and see how easy it is.  It's not.     you do need to plan things and react accordingly when you are playing keep away.   And you need to know matchups because certain characters may have jump in angles or walk speeds that can throw off your spacing and timing.  So you could misjudge and someone wil be right in your face.  For me that's not a good position to be in.   I would challenge you to play a keep away style against so higher level opponents, and then  come back here and tell me it's still easy.
7

LOL I actually just finished up a good set of games with my friend, and he honestly would catch me with a random Rock (Cody player) only to stay at fullscreen.

I respect Guile turtling (Ummmm, GL to rushdown Guiles?) but when you use a character that isn’t meant to be fullscreen, I wonder how they enjoy the game.

W/E, Fullscreen Gief’s are quite enjoyable to Hadoken spam, especially when they don’t Lariat or EX Green Fist it

8

For me, it’s all about the fun. I don’t mind losing if I’m having fun losing. I generally don’t have fun when I play against turtle types even when I win. Why? Because the fights tend to be so long and boooring! Recently, I’ve been trying to learn ways to get in close on turtlers and honestly certain characters (that I generally don’t play) are better at it.

I usually play with a particular guile user and generally I go maybe 2/10 because they’ve been using guile for a loong time and I only really got started playing since sf4 so they have a firm grasp of his playstyle and moves and I’m still learning. If I’m using a projectile character usually the match goes nowhere as we cancel projectiles all day long until I get bored and up trying to go to him which inevitably means I do exactly what he wants me to do. Lately I’ve been getting better at finding ways to close range but it irks me inside that it feels like I have to do so much more work just to get to a range where I can do something. Especially in a game like this where as many people have stated seems to better reward turtling and reversals.

I know proper turtling is not easy, but it always seems easiER than not turtling…

9

I’ve been thinking of this because of Dudley, whom I believe is meant to be played as a rush down character, but most Dudley’s only lay way back and try to turtle and zone. This works for me, because Dudley is easier to deal with when he isn’t in your face, but it is still a little odd for me to see match after match.

Other than that, I think Dander is on point with his post.

10

I don’t think you can automatically make the assumption that the person staying back is doing so because they can’t play up close. Nor can you make the assumption that the person rushing in automatically knows what he’s doing. There are a lot of factors to consider when you decide how you want to play. One of the major ones is the character matchup.

If I picked a heavy projectile user and my opponent picked a grappler, I would consider rushing in and going close combat to be incredibly stupid to do right away in many cases unless you happen to already be familiar with your opponent and his capabilities. In this situation, even if you have some sort of plan, you have to realize that a projectile thrown from a distance presents some threat to your opponent and far less to you so why wouldn’t you play on that strength and instead unnecessarily place yourself at risk by moving into his comfort zone? Obviously if he’s good enough to dodge your projectiles with minimal problems, then you’ll be forced to play a closer game against him, but if he’s not good enough to get through it, there’s absolutely no need for you to change what you’re doing and yes, it’s perfectly strategic to do so because there’s thought and purpose behind what you are doing. Where is the strategy behind unnecessarily taking yourself out of an advantageous position and putting yourself on more equal footing with your opponent? That’s not strategy. It’s pride. And if you happen to lose because of it when you could have won by staying away, you’re not the better person for it because it just means you did something stupid and lost. There’s nothing to be proud of there.

By contrast, there are some people who will rush in and you can easily tell they’ve absolutely no idea what they’re doing because they’re just dashing in and mashing buttons hoping for a combo or a hit. Initially this person might seem like the better player because he’s doing more than sitting back and throwing projectiles, but in reality, a person who plays like this is on the same level as a turtler with no purpose and is not really learning anything, but rather depending on a flurry of up close attacks as a “crutch” because he has no idea how to play a more strategic and thoughtful game. So in truth, there are people on both sides of the spectrum…

My opinion is that the distinction between a good player and a bad one is not whether he turtles or rushes in, but rather WHEN, HOW, and WHY he chooses to do so. The reason winning is important is because the winner is ultimately the better player of the two. He is the one who was better able to adapt and exploit his opponent. The whole thing about learning is moot simply because the reason for learning is in order to get better and the reason to get better is to win. If you are winning, there’s no need to change what you are doing so long as you continue to win regardless of how you play.

11

You aren’t improving though. I’ll take 50 losses over 5 wins if it means I grow as a player. If I win vs a player that can own me everywhere BUT fullscreen then all I’m proving is that this game allows me the luxury of a run away game. All I’m proving by winning with runaway is that I believe this guy is better than me everywhere but far away. If I’m conceding defeat with my gameplan then I am not making that attempt at getting passed my own short comings and will continue to be a terrible player only looking for work around solutions. I don’t like long winded debates really so I won’t be going into this so deeply. Mainly because I know you aren’t going to listen because you want to win. I just want to get learn and get better and it doesn’t necessarily have to happen today for me to be satisfied.

also I didn’t realy read your post.

12

You only need to look at Dhalsim to see that zoning and turtling is a legitimate strategy, he’s clearly not meant to be in the opponents face all the time. The best Dhalsim players though can mix it up and get in there when necessary, I think it’s good to have a balance no matter who you play so you can adapt to how your opponent is playing.

13

If you didn’t read my post, then why bother responding to it?

14

This statement is the answer to everything.

If you were dhalsim vs zangief? what would you do? “yeaah be a good player and rush him down with good ol dhalsim get as close as possible to gief and fight!!”, no. Some characters are meant to be played with a turtling style some others more agressive and rush down like Bison, others can adapt pretty well to any circumstances (in the end every character has to adapt but some others can adapt more easily).

I just hate people that send me hate mail when i play Bison acussing me of being gay, just beacuse i apply head stomping pressure,cr.hk and a lot of scizor kicks, but this ken called me gay beacuse i didnt want to get close to him so that he could shoryuken me.

P.S: FADC Baits DPs like insects are drawn to shiny stuff!

15

Well run of the mill focus attacks do that when you play Bison due to his focus attack looking alot like a taunt… I had to keep in mind that I wasn’t getting taunted whenever I tried to attack… lol…

16

Great read Branh0913

I prefer to play more aggressive and I do find defensive type players really frustrating, but I agree that you have to look at it from their point of view as well.

Why would they fight up close when their character is weaker than mine at that range? It doesn’t make sense.

17

If I have a decent life lead, I love playing keep away. It gives me time to read what my opponent will do and react accordingly. It works especially well when they notice that there’s twenty seconds and they’re just an ultra combo set up from taking the round from me. They sometimes get frantic and careless. Frantic and careless people make lots and lots of mistakes.

I also love playing keep away when I notice I have a minute+ time left in the round and I’m near K.O. Sometimes they get that bloodlust in 'em and they just want to rush down and get that win any way they can. It can lead to some sloppy stuff. Sloppy stuff is easily punished.

Sometimes I get the hatemail, but I don’t care. That T in one of my bubbles is still a win.

I even get frustrated when other people play keep away from me. But I know it’s part of the game, and if they’re confident they’re going to win doing it; They. Will. Do. It. It’s my responsibility to find a way in and deal the damage. Always in hindsight, I’m appreciative of those runaways. It helps improve my approach, and I hope I fight them again. I won’t get better against them if I can’t find a way to get in. Heh… It’s one of those, “I’ll hate you now for it, but thank you later” situations.

The same applies to every playstyle. Even if you’re chucking fireballs all day. If that can beat the person you’re playing against, do it. Style points mean nothing.

18

I’ve been trying to get this across to a friend, when you’re playing at high level, or are in general trying to win, and you have the life lead you use it. It isn’t about running away, it’s about playing safe. As a Ken player, I have to keep up the pressure. tick kara throws, baiting out counter hits for FADC ultra, going for over heads. But if I’m in a tournament and I’ve got the life lead and I’m at full screen, I’m going to keep my distance. A person trying desperatly to get in to do damage makes a lot of stupid decisions. That’s playing smart, playing to win, not playing gay. I’m not going to risk my neck to end the match any faster, a win is a win.

19

Wow this thread is surprisingly informative and non-flametastic. Great read. That being said please don’t flame me for my opinions im about to state. I honestly feel that turtling is a legit strategy, but takes the least amount of skill in all the strategies in fighting games, because you are indeed running away. Dont get me wrong its the smart thing to do. If you’re winning in a basketball game and the clock is ticking, your gonna hold the ball to kill the clock. But my issue is with players who revolve their whole strategy on this. Its as if the whole match is the last 10 seconds of a basketball game and they are just holding the ball to win. Is it effective? Hell yes it is. Does it take lots of skill? This is where it gets gray for me. It doesnt seem to me like it is as difficult to sit and wait for your opponent to make a move then counter them, then it would be to devise 3-5 different combos and attacks that could nail you a win. Especially since there is no penalty for sitting and doing nothing. Someone please correct me if i’m wrong because i probably have a very skewed vision on what turtlers are all about (since i NEVER use the strategy).

Also I feel like the term “turtling” should be changed as the strategy that most of you are trying to convey does not involve playing 95% defense and 5% offense. Its more of a 70%-30% kindof thing (at least what i watch in high level play thats the closest thing to turtling). The high level “turtling” i see on youtube and other videos of tourneys proves to me that “turtling” is hardly sitting back and waiting for 20 seconds. Turtling just sounds negative to me and i automatically associate that with running away and hiding. Just my opinions.

1 more thing! I love facing turtlers because i SUCK against them. It really ups my options reading skills when i manage to assess how they’re turtling and rush it down.

20

I’ll try explaining what you’re asking by saying this. Lets say you have two Ryu players. Both of them need one more round to win a tournament. We’ll refer to them as Ryu1 and Ryu2.

Ryu1 has the lifelead and is on the left side of the screen, Ryu 2 doesn’t, etc. let’s say Ryu1 has a life lead of 2/3, and Ryu2 is about to die, so Ryu1 has barely taken damage. Both really want to win this match. Here are two scenarios.

Ryu 1, very confident with his life lead, decides that after a good few seconds of the fireball game, he’s going to “end it all now” and jumps over Ryu2’s next fireball. How ever, Ryu2 wants to win badly, and has this entire time been spacing himself to make it to where his fireball has enough recovery to allow him to SRK. And he does, with a SRK FADC Ultra. Now, not only is Ryu1 down to about 1/4 health, but he is on the ground, making his options very much so limited. Ryu2 takes this advantage, and basically turns the entire match around.

Scenario 2. Ryu1 is playing safe, and is being vary sparce with his fireballs, knowing full well that if he doesn’t distance them right, he can get hit with a jump in or a tatsu. So, he jumps over most fireballs, and only presses the advance when he absolutely has to, like getting put into the corner. For this example, lets say he has 1 bar. He keeps going in on that fireball game, and if a fireball looks too risky, he’ll even take the minimal chip damage, just so he doesn’t get knocked down. The other ryu has him in the corner and initiates the footsie game. Ryu1, still playing very conservatively, doesn’t fall for this, doesn’t even try to punish footsies. Finally, Ryu2 finall gets in on him, getting c.mkxxfireballs in. Ryu1 waits for his chance, if he jumps at the wrong moment, he eats AA SRK ultra. At this point he’s gotten about two bars, maybe 3. Throws out EX tatsu to get Ryu2 off, tatsu through the air, and in the next part of the fireball war throws an EX fireball.

Ironically, that has killed MAYBE 20 seconds, assuming they weren’t already at 60s or something, meaning that he has 40 seconds to go. And thats also assuming he didn’t mess up, accidentally jump on a fireball or the good amount of chip damage he took while being in the corner. If anything, while playing defensive you are essentially telling your opponent what you plan on doing, and then trying to work a plan around him knowing your every move.