The Problem of Execution

[polarity]

The point is being inclusive to the widest number of people though. The fact that you can’t tailor the game to everyone’s needs isn’t an argument against trying to reach the most people you can.

[Slide]

The point is being inclusive to the widest number of people though. The fact that you can’t tailor the game to everyone’s needs isn’t an argument against trying to reach the most people you can.

If you want to teach the most people you can, or give the most people chances to apply their strengths, then you need a healthy and viable balance of both “sides” that are being argued.

This thread is going to keep going in circles because no one side has a clearly defined line. The arguement on each side could almost appear unstoppable, simply because it’s arguing to a higher point that hasn’t even been defined or pointed out yet. Everyone here could just make the point go as high up as they want, just to suit the needs to refute. It’s proof with that, when you didn’t even personally state what YOU think is tough execution.

It then turns into semantics and discussion going in circles. No one is going to concede on either side anyway.

[arstal]

I agree with you on some of those points.

My main question, what kind of inputs become acceptable when you’re dealing with a move like raging storm. I like that one for example, anti jump, ridiculous dmg output, fast startup. In what other ways can a developer handicap the move other than making it more difficult? The developer would have to balance that move vs the other supers/specials and we know that rarely happens:wgrin:

In the instance of just frames and extension of option trees, sometimes the followups are simply too retarded to make it easier to do.

I agree that the thread isn’t going anywhere interesting but i’d like to hear some ideas…

The Raging Storm usually is punishable if blocked and has startup lag.
The RB2 motion Raging Storm was better then average- and yet Geese is top tier for other reasons, not the Raging Storm.
Mostly due to a very-easy kara-grab ability.

[Henaki]

if someone is missing fingers playing some video games should come with the territory. you become as all-inclusive as possible without catering to such small minorities of people.

should we make ddr for people in wheelchairs, or should we let a guy with a broken leg play basketball? no, but that doesn’t stop everyone else from doing it. execution in fighting games is often like designing a sport in which you have to run as fast as an olympic sprinter, completely pointless.

[Slide]

if someone is missing fingers playing some video games should come with the territory. you become as all-inclusive as possible without catering to such small minorities of people.

should we make ddr for people in wheelchairs, or should we let a guy with a broken leg play basketball? no, but that doesn’t stop everyone else from doing it. execution in fighting games is often like designing a sport in which you have to run as fast as an olympic sprinter, completely pointless.

Yeah so you never stop to think that that’s what others might be thinking as far as execution goes. The majority of competitive fighting game players probably don’t even live in the U.S. so in a place that does have the majority, execution being too easy just might be in the minority.

Your analogies are fucking stupid btw. DDR can/has people playing with a controller, and there’s also wheelchair basketball for people that can’t use their legs.

[Mike_C]

that analogy is just about as stupid as yours about the dude with one finger

[Slide]

yeah good shit

EDIT: I don’t even know why I bother sometimes. I should’ve just left it with my first post in here, or just not at all.

[Gaijinblaze]

I like how this thread is now just people jacking off to their own posts.

Someone find this crap-execution Daigo so he can give me tips.

[System_1]

Stop making shit up. Don’t try to make it out like people are implying things that suit your post best.

VF’s game system is not unbalanced. ST and VF are both good in that they have balanced game systems. There’s hard execution choices, and easy execution choices by alot of standards. The game’s respective systems allow both choices to be able to compete at all levels, and rewards for both. Which is why those games are at their level of respect.

That pretty much sums up what the thread is about though.
It’s like people say a3’s execution level is too hard, but it’s not ‘to me’. etc.

Making things up? Are there not numerous posts of people implying that without difficult execution - you have - for all those reasons listed - a crap game? However if you look at Virtua Fighter - a game without difficult execution - none of those ideas actually apply, so those reasons are fucking worthless.

[Mike_C]

im pretty sure virtua fighter actually has really difficult execution

[polarity]

im pretty sure virtua fighter actually has really difficult execution

VF is kind of weird in that there’s some hard stuff (EDTEG, Akira’s knee) but in other ways they’ve made stuff a lot easier - there’s a big (11 frame) buffer on inputs so if you input a command in a non-neutral state within a certain amount of time of going to neutral, the move will come out on the first available frame. Makes doing juggles etc. a lot easier, and guessing games more about guessing well than if you can time your shit exactly right.

[Mixup]

The Raging Storm usually is punishable if blocked and has startup lag.
The RB2 motion Raging Storm was better then average- and yet Geese is top tier for other reasons, not the Raging Storm.
Mostly due to a very-easy kara-grab ability.

I can come up with some alternate examples if you’d like. I only used his super considering it’s undeniable overall anti jump strength and dmg output + complexity of the imput.

didn’t earthquake from samsho have a ridiculous throw input?

What are some of the craziest inputs for set-ups ever?

marvel has a ridiculous #

[Henaki]

i liked the bead guy’s command throw in samsho

half circle forward… except it was all aerial inputs

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I have to comment on the whole stupid Medical School Analogy. If science could make exacution of brain surgery or heart surgery easyer then the world might be btter place because we would all know how to save a guy from a heart attack. DUH. The question isnt about what the standards are. Its about should they be changed.Are you really gonna argue against making treating people easyer?

[arstal]

Gaira’s grab is near-impossible to do unbuffered- but it’s so so good.

If you want crazy inputs- look at FFSP. The Raging Storm is one of the easier DM’s in that compared to some.

Also Kusaregedo’s 2nd DM from SSVSP. It’s very similar to a Summon Suffering motion.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I just thought of a move ideal for the conversation i think if only because i saw it talked about recently ad thats Sagats Tiger in Super Turbo. I can’t comment at the momet sice i have never tried it i just remember the convo seeming pretty legit

Is sagats Tiger Kee to hard to do in Super Turbo ad would his game beafit from the move being easier to do? Does that dumb his character down by making the knee easier to do ad invite scrubs tot akig Sagat because the kee is easier to do?

[arstal]

Answer- No.

Reasons:

The Tiger Knee isn’t powerful enough to be an abusive move. Generally, complaints are in the form of the following:

1. The move being hard makes a marginal move useless

2. The move is necessary, and the hard motion just adds an artifical barrier.

Tiger Knee doesn’t fit either of those. While the move isn’t necessary, it isn’t useless- so people just use other things instead.

Also, the tiger knee motion in ST isn’t that hard.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

So if the Tiger Knee isnt useless would’t making it easier to pull off make a more viable option to your game plan? Sounds liek it has a use but people don’t bother because the difficulty in pullig it off doesnt make it worth the time. It may not be that hard but its hard enough to not be worht it.

I dunno just a thought.

[arstal]

Issue is comparative usefulness. It all comes down to risk/reward.

Generally the hard to execute move fail in that regard due to two reasons.

1. Even with perfect execution, it isn’t any better, so people stick to the simple stuff. No one really complains, but the move never gets used.

2. The move skews risk/reward for the character, so people spend all day practicing it, creating an artifical barrier. People complain about the execution of the move.

One reason I hate 2k1-2 is that SNK has perfectly fine controls KOF 98-2k, but 2k1 ruined it for all future games, and SNK never changed it back.

[Slide]

One reason I hate 2k1-2 is that SNK has perfectly fine controls KOF 98-2k, but 2k1 ruined it for all future games, and SNK never changed it back.

Controls?

I thought 98 had terrible controls.

I think 97 had the best controls, followed by 2002.

However in general I think kof just has some really really really shitty controls.