You’re missing the point completely. As I’ve reiterated like a million times, I’m not saying execution should be completely removed from the equation. Did you even read my post a few up?
There’s a whole bunch of stuff in fighters that’s more difficult than it needs to be to achieve its maximum strategic worth, and if you can’t see that… well, I’m not even going to bother arguing the point because it’s ridiculously fucking self-evident.
Even if you disagree with me you can’t deny I’m one of the few people in this thread capable of making a well-supported, logically coherent argument (i.e. conclusion follows from the premises). I’m also capable of distinguishing between something that is logical, something that is fact, and something that is opinion.
I’ve said certain points aren’t worth arguing because they’re opinion, I’ve NEVER said the whole thing isn’t worth arguing (I did say it was pointless responding to shoultzula’s posts because he’s an idiot incapable of understand how to have a reasoned debate but what can I say, I’m a glutton for punishment). I’m arguing based on a specific premise that I’ve stated about a million times already, outside of that (and also criticizing other people’s arrogant decrees of what a fighting game “should” be) I have no interest in arguing anything outside of that.
I’ve helped out here and there on this website for a few years though, don’t get your hopes up.
Anyone remember how tight EZ mode was in the V.S series? Many of these examples don’t hold up when you put them against the previous Sf engines. Thats one reason that you’re not going anywhere in this thread. Perhaps if you actually focused on detailing what type of input you feel is adequate?
i’m all for only tapping up and punch to get a DP, forget SF, lets follow in the path of nintendo and get some 5 year olds on the beast train…
execution and strategy are intertwined. What you want to do is impossible. Dumb down execution and make games mostly strategy which doesn’t work in a fighter. Even though strategy is mostly mental, you still have to execute your strategy. You still have to input buttons, you still have to visually react to scenarios and based upon the scenarios, input the sequence needed to gain an advantage or get away to reposition aka execution.
By making execution simpler, you’re making strategy that much simpler too because you need to execute stategy it to begin with. This is why I keep bringing up DOA. They made execution simpler but in the process, made strategy simpler too because of that damn counter that did massive amounts of life.
Your whole argument is flawed from the start because execution and strategy are intertwined. by making one of the 2 easier, you’re adjusting both of them. If you want deep strategy, you have to have huge amounts of execution in your game.
This is why ST, mvc2, GG are still popular. ST and MVC2 have gotten no upgrades but games like smash and DOA keep getting upgrades why is that? ST and MVC2 take forever to learn and in turn create a deep game. Games like smash\DOA have to constantly reinvent themselves from being overplayed and becoming too easy.
and i’m far from stupid. You don’t know me personally so how would you know? because of some damn internet post? gtfo here bum.
well like i’ve said about a dozen times and dandy j just said on this page, obviously you cant just insert easier execution into an existing game without changing anything else, it will fuck it up.
READ
MY
FUCKING
POSTS
P.S. Will you please stop with the fucking DOA shit? Nobody except you believes that the reason DOA is a shallow game is because the moves are easy to do.
Oh shit don’t stop there, we’re waiting on a million and one.
Seriously, it’s been said like 2 pages ago that this shit will go in circles can this thread be closed now. Like I dont even understand why you put so much effort into this, this time around.
FRC timing in GG. Motions for moves that aren’t good reversals (having a long motion serves a purpose for a move that’s a good reversal - makes it harder to reversal out of short block/hitstun, which makes things like ticks actually worth using) but otherwise you could just simplify the motion but give them more frames of startup and achieve the same effect - there’s other kinks you’d have to work out with this system but it’s workable). Target combos with small windows to cancel into the next normal (think KOF). Deadly Rave-type supers. Just frames. Any move with a built-in followup where there’s no reason to ever NOT use the followup. Link combos (I’d advocate an input buffer like VF where if you press the button within a reasonable time of going to neutral the move will come out on the next neutral frame).
There’s a few for you; there’s a bunch more. All of these things can be done if you work at it (some don’t even require much work), but they’re all things that require a degree of manual skill or memorization that is alienating to new players, and they could be simplified without detracting from strategy. Some couldn’t simply be thrown into existing games without fucking shit up, but like I’ve already said, you need to build the game around easy execution, and then there won’t be any problems.
edit: Slide is right. I’m done, unless someone brings up something intelligent which can’t simply be answered by copy pasting a previous post.
I’d argue on the flipside that execution can make top tier characters into god tier characters. 98 Iori being a good example of that (hopefully UM fixes some of that)
I would argue that strategic depth and execution required have no correlation to each other positive or negative.
I’d also argue that execution is a barrier- though different levels of executions exclude greater percentages of players. However, I would argue that easy execution could hinder certain types of fighters.
For example, easy execution would not hinder a SF, SS, or KOF game, but it would hinder a Marvel or GG-style game.
My main question, what kind of inputs become acceptable when you’re dealing with a move like raging storm. I like that one for example, anti jump, ridiculous dmg output, fast startup. In what other ways can a developer handicap the move other than making it more difficult? The developer would have to balance that move vs the other supers/specials and we know that rarely happens:wgrin:
In the instance of just frames and extension of option trees, sometimes the followups are simply too retarded to make it easier to do.
I agree that the thread isn’t going anywhere interesting but i’d like to hear some ideas…
Yeah this is kind of interesting actually. Firstly I’d say even with a move like that at high level people are gonna nail it 100% of the time (hell I can so it’s not that hard) so the main issue is the fact that the motion takes a long time to do, I think. How about something like you have to hold PPP for a certain amount of time (probably 1 second or so) while the joystick’s at neutral? That’s a whole second you have of not being able to block if you want the move to come out, which simulates having to do the long motion - still difficult to land, but not so difficult to actually do.
That was a direct comparison the guy made between games. The input for IAD’s in AH is the same as GG, so it’s not difficult at all. It sounds more like a mental wall then an actual physical deterence (ie having to go from 6 to neutral and then back to 9 and then to 6 then to neutral and then 6 again, or something crazy).
While I doubt there’s any way to reasonably or empirically prove it’s objectively easier to hold 3 buttons down than to do a crazy pretzel motion and press a button, I’d be willing to wager it’s the case for the vast majority of people
That’s what this thread is doing though. Why? Cause there’s yet to even really have a line drawn. So there’s nothing to object or be objective about.
Point is, it’s going to always vary. Time can make things easy, even if it’s just time for realization.
that 3 button hold thing might be hard as shit for someone that’s missing or broke a couple of fingers.
But shit though they might have the dopest strategy of all times, it’s not fare to them, that person specifically(yeah that person man, that person), should only be allowed to press and hold one button, so we can immediately get to the strategic portion of the game and not have to worry about the execution.
EDIT: In options, let’s look for the “broke/missing 3 fingers” button layout. It’s gotta be available in the arcades too, or it’s just not fair.
