Glad I’m not the only one that feels like JS is gahbedge.
[media=youtube]Y76YEW6qY8M[/media]
I was a supporter of Jam Session until a couple of days ago lol. Like others have said, when it comes to hitstun deterioration, X-23’s pretty strict and Jam Session scales a lot, both in damage and hitstun deterioration. Even if you snipe someone in the air, you get terrible damage off it(unless you blow your XF maybe) and X-23’s so terrible at bringing people down from SJ-height(doesn’t help that she has poor reaching air normals too), chances are you won’t even get your combo off from Jam Session hitting them.
Jam Session does nothing to dissuade fuckers with high aerial mobility when you pair it up with X-23. This is what’s annoying me at the moment, along with so many other things. At this point, I’m getting pretty tired of it all, just gonna learn Ironman properly(but can’t find all of his infinite notations), or maybe get my RR into gear again. If that doesn’t work, then I’m gonna take the logical route and put X-23 in the 2nd slot.
Thanks for the link! I know Yipes is very good and it won’t take long for his X-23 to raise some eyebrows, but I thought he’d know more about the character before making all those claims. Still, I’m excited to see what he’ll do.
Hey guys I got bored today and decided to write up another matchup average guide I really wanna see implemented. This thread has kinda gone off track since Evo and I feel like slots are just sitting there again with the information that’s out there. Instead of going off Karticles guide formation (which is really helpful!!!) I wanted to finish DevilJin’s more simpler format of rating matchups out of 10 in the probability if X23 wins or not. I find this method quite fun and it’s a shame that other thread got derailed because it seemed like such a good topic at the time.
If possible, I’d like to see us focusing more on the matchup/general tips sections and using DevilJin’s format in filling those out (it would be a lot quicker!!). Also, we need to update combo sections of recently found technology like Luis H loop. Maybe we can put up some of Felax’s vids in the recent X23 gameplay section, or some of the more “successful” X23 video adaptations. There’s much we can do but I realize people just don’t have the time anymore which is also understandable.
But anyway, I know I tried this before somewhere in here but I will be focusing on matchups/general tips that beginner X23 players should know using DJ’s format. Hopefully it finds its way to the first page after some edting/agreements!
matchups average ABC order Akuma-Dante
[details=Spoiler]
Akuma – I feel like X23 has a lot of advantages in this matchup depending if Akuma doesn’t have XF or a assist (more notably Drones or Missiles) backing him up. Air Gohadokens cover solid angles in the air, but X23 can counter this with solid rushdown and wall-jumps. His tatsu, though powerful, can be punished by X23. His overhead can be answered with quick reaction, nothing to fear there. Just don’t get hit by this guy, can probably ToD X23 in the right situation. 7-3 matchup in X23’s favor.
Amaterasu – This matchup can present all kinds of problems for X23. Since X23 lacks a projectile the Ammy player can spam reflector and convert huge dmg off of it. Good Ammy’s have the ability to zone X23 out and her slowdown messes up X23 feints. Not a good matchup by any means, the X23 player needs Ammy to die asap. 6-4 Ammy’s favor.
Artur – X23 has a lot of answers for Artur. H Talon is a “get in free card” to which Artur doesn’t enjoy–only way he really kills X23 is with XF. Just rushdown this guy, X23 is more than equipped upon getting in on him. Watch Artur’s meter carefully if you can, his LV3 is like a boosted Okami Shuffle. It will slaughter X23 if she’s caught in it, 8-2 X23’s favor
Captain America – Depending on this assist I feel like this can be a difficult matchup because CA main wish is for opponents to blindly rush into shield toss, and novice X23 players may feel pressured upon getting in. Thankfully, X23 has the tools on getting close to him, but staying there is another matter. If you can, try to snap in his assist and kill him. Captain America by himself is a lot less threatening. I see this matchup going 5-5.
Chris Redfield – Ugh, this guy can be so cheap. Most of the time you think you got him, only to get hit by a well place land mine which nets him a free combo. Definitely wanna keep an eye out for those. This guy is the chip king, and with X23’s poor health that’s not very good. Don’t let him gain any momentum with his gun antics because good ones will zone/chip you out. He probably won’t die from one combo because of his above average health, so do your best reset and kill him. He needs to die before he gains any momentum, 6-4 Chris’ favor.
Chun-Li – Here’s a matchup you don’t see often. I feel like X23 has a lot more options in opening her up, but legs beats out a lot of things X23 wants to do. Whoever implements their strategy more will probably win in the end. Chun is a lot more dependent on team support so I like this matchup for X23, 7-3 X23’s favor
C.Viper – I am a witness first hand to how truly threatening Viper can be. Scary ToDs, invincible moves, ability to zone with seismo spam, Viper is simply better than X23 when it comes to utilizing some of the best assist in the game and creating off simple hitconfirms into ToD scenarios. I do, however, feel like X23 has the skill set to beat Viper but it’s gonna take a solid A-game to beat some of the better ones. 7-3 Viper’s favor
Dante – With a movepool such as Dante’s he’s more than equipped for handling a wild X23. But, his nerf’s didn’t do him any justice at all. Be mindful that some of the moves Dante players particularly abuse are not safe, and thus, they almost always cancel into something that’s safe on block. If you can keep this in mind and put up with Dante’s shit long enough, you may very well edge out a victory. Since he can also utilize some of the best assist in the game this increases the probability of him beating X23 down. 6-4 Dante’s favor[/details]
I don’t really think the match-up number make any sense for the sake of a match-up thread, that’s really close to trying to make tier lists and this game is too team oriented to be able to say anyone about 1v1 matchups.
I literally just moved into a new building at work that doesn’t have SRK on lockdown so I should be able to keep this a little more up to date so if we want to get his back on track, I’m all for it.
You’re def. underestimating Chun’s legs…legs beats out almost everything that X23 can do (Charged NS won’t even go through legs) and X23 doesn’t have enough life to live through more than 2 hits from her (1 from the good ones.)
On C.Viper, I don’t disagree with it being in Viper’s favor, but X23 doesn’t have the worst time in the world against her. Viper dominates at ground level, but she doesn’t have hardly any options to cover anything past jump height and X23 has so much bullshit she can start from up there.
That being said, I think it would be more useful to talk about specific situations to punish or avoid rather than vague generalizations.
EG:
Against Taskmaster zoning, be sure to watch for jump Arrows (hori and angled) or ground vertical arrows as people will often underestimate X23’s Dash>cr.M punish range. (Same for Hawkeye as almost any jump triple arrows is a free punish.)
Aganst Nova, if you ever see someone start a box dash j.H without full assist cover, dash foward and go for throw punish. (Same for Spencer doing a jump hori. zip, if you’re not in blockstun, grab him.)
Against Dante, watch for the tell-tale teabag motion at full screen for the teleport punish, the smart ones won’t do this without an assist…it still happens way more often than it should. X23 can easily run away from Dante to bait teleport attempts.
Against any Vajra call, you can always react with a CS to punish (since a Vajra call is usually followed by pressure, using H is better as it gets you above normal jump height and makes the punish much more lenient.). If you’re opponent doesn’t pressure you immediately, cancel into TA L and pick him up with OTG + assist (keep in mind that beams that normally only work on low hitstun will always work against assists.) or RT if you’re feeling ballsy. If you’re not in a position to go back to the ground cancel into TA H to get a bit more damage and stay out of pressure.
I think having a database of tried and true character specific information would be infinitely more useful than just stating that Chris is good at chip and zoning since most will/should already know that.
Speaking of match-ups, here’s the(extremely) little info I sort of know about Firebrand.
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His slightly arcing cr.L+his small hitbox means d+H can lose to his cr.L.
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The air series MMH>d+H doesn’t work after a launcher, at least not for extended combos due to his hitbox.
One thing(which I should probably find out for myself in training mode actually) I was wondering about was his unblockable set-ups after a knockdown+Cold Star. I’m pretty sure they’re escapable(rolling forwards out of the corner/Crossover Counter/taking the hit/maybe Rage Trigger) but sometimes I’d get caught in them, so I’m wondering if they’re airtight if timed properly. Probably not.
The ones I need to take care of are the incoming set-ups. If done right, those ones are inescapable. I heard depending on the assists he uses, there are a few escapes, it’s just Firebrand’s not common enough, so not many know how to escape them. Not sure at all, need to go into the Firebrand forums and look them up.
For me, the main problem’s approaching him, to be honest. Small hitbox= no MFC’d H pokes because it tends to whiff on him. His normals are better than X-23’s, so I’m reduced to Talons, d+H(which can lose to cr.L quite frequently, even low-to-the-ground ones and I execute them before he cr.Ls as well, so stupid lol) and M normals. Air mobility+aerial attack’s(especially Bon Voyage) extremely annoying for X-23 to deal with, X-23 doesn’t take the best advantage of the main AA assists either, though I think Vajra’s a better choice than Jam Session for X-23 AA-wise. Haven’t tried Repulsor against his air game yet, but I will do. And he has ground and air projectiles on top+whatever assists he has.
Only saving grace is that he’s got low health(more than X-23 though haha.) Anyone else fight Firebrand enough to pass some tips on how to deal with him more easily? Otherwise, I’m just gonna let Dante deal with him.
yeah most of my claims were pretty vague, but I was just trying to get something going because I felt this thread has been stagnant for a while :lol:
I mentioned that Chun’s legs beats out most of things X23 wants do, but as some of you may be aware I always play Laura w/Strong Hori assist so I don’t have no problems HCing the one’s that spam that move. There’s a lot of generalization I like throw around because I try to keep things simple for other people, but I agree we need to focus on what X23 can punish with ‘said topic’.
H Talon actually beats Vajra, but the assist itself puts Viper in a whole other dimension lol and if Viper can predict where X23 is going to land that’s not very good. I did mention, however, that I believe that X23 has the skill set to at least edge her out here and there. Wish I proved that at Evo.
Sorry folks, I’m always talking out of my ass but I’ll leave it to you theoretical data monsters. I just felt this thread was slowing reverting back to its old ways >.> we had a decent discussion in here a few months ago but that’s it really.
Yeah, I’ll have to disagree on with the Chris matchup. I may be more limited in experience with him in comparison to Ephidel, but every time I play that matchup, I feel like a bully. His normals are all slow as shit and apart from his S, none of them have particularly disruptive hitboxes. This means she can frame trap him for days. Bait that pushblock, bait that S when he’s expecting an down+H, he gets opened up quite easily. The problem to this are the incendiary grenades and landmines, but X-23 is a character that gets to choose where she is on the screen. It’s tough, but she can wait for an opportunity, dodging Chris’ projectiles, if he’s being defensive.
Factoring assists balances things more in Chris’ favor, as he can cover up those moments of opportunity with something like Jam Session and beating X-23’s assist calls by himself. It’s still a matter of when to call an assist to beat the other, so I don’t think that the matchup, overall, goes beyond 5-5.
But this is pure opinion, no scientific method applied. Sorry for the vague stuff, I know it’s the opposite of what everyone (including myself) wants.
One thing that can be taken into account into several matchups is calling assists as counters to the opponent’s assists. Every assist has a small animation where they jump into the stage. During that, they’re invincible. That means that in longer ranges, when the opponent has to call an assist to get closer to X-23, she can just call the assist right before the opponent’s active frames and have it come out in a way that still punishes it or at least prevents the opponent’s offense. Again, since X-23 can adjust her spacing really easily against lots of characters, she can pretty much spend the entire match waiting for an opportunity to get in.
This is why I love Plasma Beam. I feel that thanks to it, some matchups are theoretically “unlosable” for X-23. For instance, against Hulk, even if he has a Plasma Beam himself, I can just run away and only call mine while his is starting up. The Hulk will have to block or get hit, and even from full screen, X-23 can be there to capitalize.
Nah, Chris is a really solid matchup for X23 IMO, too. If he gets his back to a corner with some kind of vertical assist (which any proper Chris will have, since that’s his big liability) and drops a mine down in front of him, there’s really not much of anything you can do to get in on him. If you touch the mine, you’ll be eating blockstun into incendiary grenade + missiles until the cows come home (or at least until he can set up in the other corner). Plus any throw or touch is death and any stray Magnum from full screen is over half life and anything closer than half is death. His cr. M is bonkers. It makes no sense how good of a normal it is.
A real Chris can keep pressure going until X23 has died from chip easily, you have to take risks eventually.
Also…I hear what you’re saying about the assist invincibility, but immediately after that is when they’re vulnerable and before their hitboxes start up so that’s a real solid way to get hbd’d on one bad assist call. Especially since you have all the time in the world to call your assist right after their assist finishes up with no chance of clashing assists.
Also, smart hulks can do some really nasty shit like trading the beam with a s.M and cancelling into gamma charge or wave for either a HBD or just hitting your assist and then juggling them to death with rocks (or at least forcing you to rush in with no assist against him and his assist). So I wouldn’t really call that a free/solid option. I will say that s.H is amazing against Hulk (even better if you have log trap so you can do H+logxxCS HxxTA H to avoid their assist altogether and get a full punish). I guarantee you that the hulk matchup is def. losable, but it’s manageable with a mess-ton of patience and decent assist backup.
@Ephidel It seems to me that our guys have just been in lab mode lately. That and answering questions for the few new faces. I know I’ve just been stuck running new team options lately.
Maybe the best way to get things going is try to running through the list like you were doing but get everyone’s opinions and see what we can confirm in the lab. (If we get solid info I’ll even try to do a crappy matchup vid to confirm our claims?)
I think we should probably stick to 3 or 4 in a one week period, max (or alternatively start at relative tier list and work our way down so we don’t have weeks of boring characters we never see until we’re almost done with the list.)
So from now until Friday, do we want to try to focus on practical matchup experience or hard data for:
Amaterasu, Akuma, Arthur, Viper?
or if we want to go the tier route (which is my vote for most useful use of time): Zero, Vergil, Wesker, Dante?
I think it’s important to approach these from the mindset of most ideal team built around a character specifically, with extra exceptions/notes for XF3 runback characters and seperate considerations for dealing with notable assists.
FingerCramp has posted X-23’s hitbox video. Here’s the link
[media=youtube]nCZPuSuGp18[/media]
Mix and match the characters from the two groups/routes and talk about the ones we feel the most familiar about perhaps. I’ll try and get something going tomorrow.
EDIT: X-23’s hitboxes don’t look good at all lol.
Yeah that format is fine with me, getting some of the annoying characters out of the way first can speed things up a little.
So what are people’s opinions on the Wesker matchup in terms of how X23 can gain the advantage? The general consensus now is putting him on point backed with two strong assist that cover air/ground (notably projectile+vajra). His launcher is safe on block and his c.M has retarded range…bait out some of his uncovered teleports? CS beats Max Wesker or trade, no need to super on reaction unless he’s low health. He can predict an X23 from abusing Talon L using his counter super, though.
Edit - That’s cool Ryuga, tomorrow or something then.
Damnit Vita…even you aren’t gonna show us the hitbox on Silent Kill?
For the record, I’m almost positive her S in dirtnap becomes her s./j.L. Would have liked some proof tho…
Honestly, I have a loooot of trouble with Wesker. Bad enough that he’s one of those characters that I’m just garbage at blocking, but you can’t be too obvious without eating a counter, and there’s been too many times where my normals are getting beat out (fuck c.rM), not to mention he gets almost free reign to throw out his S.
I think you’re most likely to see Wesker ran with Vajra or the dreaded team trenchcoat. (Not counting one-offs like FR_RoachKing that plays Wesker/Haggar/Phoenix…at which point, good fucking luck not getting reset all day and all night.) The Vajra’s easy enough to shut down, just keep your eyes out for him hopping on screen and CS him.
In my experience it’s really hard to get air throws off wesker because he’s normally trying to grab you so I get more techs than anything else. You can’t use NS against him without some serious assist coverage without getting command grabbed and it’s hard to stop an sj.Up-Backer with X23 without the right assists, too. I think this match is mostly about proper spacing, but I’m not sure what you need to be doing to get punishes going. Assists like RB work really well at shutting down teleport mixups, at least.
Deviljin’s Vanilla tutorial had MUs on Wesker and Wolverine.
In order to take care of his cr.M, X-23’s can use d+H and low-to-the-ground TK Talons to leap over and beat it out, same with all his crouching normals. Can’t get too predictable with them though.
Unassisted teleport H+J.S(or whichever teleport sends him upwards) can be punished by backdash+st.M(that was from Deviljin’s video) or an airthrow. You could XFC guard cancel and punish his launcher if you feel like using XF. Though he could XFC cancel his launcher too.
Advancing guarding on the first hit helps avoid command tick throw set-ups if you can do it. You run the risk of flopping and eating damage though.
X-23’s small hitbox goes underneath Gun Shots, even when dashing.
How to escape Viscant-style resets? No idea, since I’ve never come across them before haha. I’ll have to try them out in training mode.
Wesker’s biggest weakness is proper zoning imo, even LV4 Wesker has trouble with hitboxes being flown everywhere. Unfortunately, that’s not in X23 gameplan or arsenal so she has to face Wesker upfront and hope to utilize her assist in the best way possible. Still, for what it’s worth, I’d rather fight Wesker without his assist because this changes his whole approach to the game completely. If he has XF4, you still punish uncovered teleports with solid prediction and avoiding the small blockstun off gun. It’s a lot easier said than done, however.
Wesker’s a pain in the ass. I would recommend utilizing MFC’s to frame trap this dude so that he throws out a suspecting normal X23 can counter react to, a character like Wesker has no business having normals like that ROFL.
Lets talk about Zero. How do we stop him? Is it even possible? Busters, Derpy mixups, Lighting Loops, multi-hitting normals, sigh. Just thinking about him pisses me off bad.
I can’t think up of good anti-Zero stuff lol. I don’t think X-23 wins this at all. Best bet is to catch him at the opening gambit where he’s weakest, and don’t let up.
The only good thing I can say is make sure X-23’s got an AAing assist to lessen the pain. For basic punishes, unprotected Raikousen’s a free punish(airthrow, st.M, Rage Trigger) but by now, no Zero player should be doing that.
X-23’s normals aren’t really gonna cut it in this MU, Talon Attacks are probably your best bet in terms of putting hitboxes out there. Keep an eye out on Buster charging and call assists when it’s not fully charged. Get in on him and start your offence as quickly as possible if you get in and be relentless. Anytime you’re not in, you have to be on the move and avoid everything. I think this is the key to a lot of MUs in general; run and avoid the opponent as much as possible in an attempt to try and get them flustered. Of course, against characters who have a lot of screen control, this is easier said than done really.
He’s got teleport mix-ups on the ground, usually done after a blockstring+assist, I need to see if those are tight or if there’s gap where X-23 can throw/jump out. He’s got some weird cross-up set-ups involving Jam Session, can’t remember if they can be avoided simply by push guarding.
He’s got unblockables involving Sogenmu. There’s escapes on Youtube, need to find them. Maybe the Zero players have found airtight set-ups though.
I’ve already talked about Magneto on here, but I’ll do it again later. I’m most familiar with him(which isn’t saying much actually lol, but my friend’s got a nice Magneto and I play against him the most.)
Patience is the best strategy against Zero. I would advise getting use to blocking his lighting crossups/teleport mixups, and if he’s running JS then I would limit the use of talons because you do not want to be flying into a wall of hitboxes to which he can convert his (assuming if the player knows how) lighting loops. I think a good pinning assist will strongly help X23 in this matchup because Zero has way too many advantages over her in terms of both the air and the ground. She needs just enough time to get her offense into gear because a good Zero will test your blocking capabilities to the max. If X23 does land a hit, Zero needs to go. I would even considering burning XF on him if the players feint execution skills aren’t up to par.
I wonder if CS will knock Zero out of Lighting, doesn’t help that he can cancel it with buster.
Mag, tomorrow!
Agreed about running into Jam Session when using Talons, have to make sure they’re low to the ground when doing them versus Zero. Blatant aerial attacks will get you sniped by the assist into a TOD 'cause Zero’s dumb like that lol.
CS will knock Zero out of Raikousen/Lightning, just as long as it’s not done too late. If he’s holding a Buster during Raikousen though, watch out.
Magneto…
Opening Gambit: Magneto has the advantage. X-23 can’t capitalise on her ground throw AFAIK, Magneto can(AND has years to do it too.) Best best is to f.H+assist(only do this with Tatsu or something fast with high priority/invincibility) so that if a throw escape occurs, the assist will come out and give you room, and if Magneto gets thrown, your assist doesn’t come out. You can retreat to the air and do DF+H(doubles up as d+H and an airthrow/airtech.)
I think Magneto’s got some stupid stuff where he can OS throw into Force Field and he can OS assists into it too. But you don’t have to worry about that for most players.
Darn, I need to go to uni, I’ll finish this up later, but make sure you have a good projectile assist, since Drones is a popular assist.
against a grab happy Magneto you have a nice opening gambit option in jump back M (+ assist) xx L talon. The j.M will come out before his H hitbox gets you, and obviously he won’t grab you because you’re airborn. Also, because you’re stuffing his s.H, the j.M will count as a counterhit and combo into the talon for conversion.
Also Wesker is really not that bad of a matchup. Use x23’s speed to get inside gunshot angles if he’s superjumping (which he shouldn’t be because you can use sj. CS to dissuade him from doing so). Make him pay for sloppy crossup attemps by utilitizing j.dH defensively (also chicken guard xx AG xx L talon to negate dash up shenanigans) and generally stay out of harms way using her mobility. Then it’s a matter of getting him to block a s.H and going to town. Oh and you can AA his j.S with S if he’s being predictable.
As far as beating out throw openers, I’ve been having good experiences so far with s.fH+assist xxCS HxxTA L/H/M (depending on the assist, beautiful Log Trap gives X23 a full punish off the opener).
So far it’s been beating out ground and air throw openers pretty solid and the CS is a pretty solid GTFO move to avoid their initial assist call.
Otherwise, I totally agree with Trauma’s jump back MxxTalon. That’s one of the best ways to start if you have dark hole imo.
Against Zero, I think it’s pretty much a dead matchup unless you have a strong projectile assist that you can reliably pick up off of. Log Trap has given me the last few sets we’ve played against I played against our local zero. He tends to press buttons a bit too often, but that’s most Zeros that play with Jam Session since he gets so much free pressure from it. Once they make the mistake of going into the air, capitalize on the landing to have your assists going with crossup, just make sure you’re not in his buster or lightning spots (TA H+Log works so well for that). Also, this note goes for almost everyone in the game, but doubly so against Zero, don’t let yourself get stuck in the corner, you pretty much guarantee a lost match the second your back touches that wall.