The Ongoing Tier Thread

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
761

On the contrary, based off of my experience I think it has changed.

If someone asked me I’d say it goes something like this:

Top tier:

A-Blanka
A-Bison
P/K-Cammy
A-Sakura
C-Sagat
any other Blanka(with the exception of maybe S)
C-Honda

High-mid tier:

C/N-Chun
C-Guile
…

One thing I can flat out say is that C-Sagat is no longer the best character in the game. He’s not even 2nd or even 3rd.

A friend of mine made an astute observation about Sagat the other day and it was this: Sagat unlike other top-tier characters does not possess a scrubby nexus strategy that he can use and abuse ad infinitum. Blanka has dash RC electricity etc., Bison has RC psycho crusher, RC scissor kicks, Cammy has six buttons and a directional pad, A-Sakura has RC fireball RC hurricane kick and scrubby normals. Shit, C-Honda has it easier than Sagat although I would still put Sagat over him.

Sagat has dominating normals but some have massive lag, and the ones that do not, don’t really give him a great initiative. He’s also a tall character which is a big minus when you consider all the gay jump-ins CvS2 has.

Don’t get me wrong Sagat still serves most of the cast just as bad and as easy as other tier characters do.

Basically any high-mid character on the original list has a fairly decent chance against Sagat(Ken has it the worst but it’s not that bad).

Possibly more later…

762

you forgot about why sagat was scrubby in the first place: crouching fierce

763

I put a-hibiki as my battery. hibiki shouldn’t be in the user position even though she’s a bad anchor, and not a very good battery.

The reason is…what is hibiki going to do with bar? Her cc doesn’t do that much damage (though if you’re good enough you can try to reset during cc), having the activate doesn’t give her that much outs from bad situations, and she doesn’t have alot of ways to combo into cc (the only ones that come into mind…that’s easily doable…are counter, jump, cc; and kick throw, cc). Her alpha counter isn’t the best in the world either, and losing the guard bar probrably puts you in a worse position to get guard crushed -> combo -> dizzy -> dead.

when i have her in the battery position, she builds bar for bison. We all know bison is inifintely better with bar than without, and his cc hurt a hell of a lot more. So at least as a not so good battery, her bar can be put to better use by a better user.

In the battery position, all i do with hibiki is zone/turtle 90% of the time. Whiffing st/cr.mp does wonders to keep ppl out, and she has a variety of anti-air options. rc running hp slash can get you out of the corner, slash/rc slash is good to stop everyone of dashing into you, and if timed right her normals stuff quite abit of moves (i stuff vega’s slide with cr.mp, for example). Since you’ll probrably never alpha counter/super, you’ll be constantly building bar. When you take up almost the entire round, you usually have a full bar by then.

Also, in the battery position, she doesn’t have that many bad match ups at that position. Vega/Blanka/Sak/Honda/Guile/Ken are all good/winnable/not-bad match ups. In the user position, the main match up that comes to mind is bison.

On the cammy match up:

Cammy has problems zoning Hibiki. As skisonic said if Hibiki whiff’s a slash, she’s in for a world of hurting. But at the range where hibiki whiff’s the slash, cammy can’t do jack against hibiki either. So both can merrily go and whiff their normals for some bar. When Cammy get’s impatient enough, she will eventually get fresh and try to dash/jump in. That when hibiki can do some damage, then sit back comfortablely in her range with cammy dancing around doing nothing.
Hibiki has the risky qcf+hp slash. It reaches even further than the other two slashes, plus you have to block low. it’s not exactly trivial to low block while you’re trying to walk back and forth. Cammy has take that into consideration when she’s trying to dance in and out of range.
A well timed dodge xx hop punch can create space for hibiki to escape traps or distance herself again, even if it trades with an opponent’s move.

Oh, i don’t think st.rh is a good poke at ALL. Terribly slow both in start up and recovery, and doesn’t out reach cr.fp/st.mp by that much.

hmmm…this should go in the hibiki section of the forum…

764

You guys are smoking some bad crack if you think the only thing Hibiki is good for is building meter and RC slashes.

Sagat easily has the best pokes and punishers in the game too to whoever said has doesn’t have anything abusable like RC crusher or electric spam.

765

i still fail to see how rc crusher is abusable like rc electricity.

as a side note, hibiki rapes chun for free.

766

RC crusher + random activates + spamming cr.mk to build meter> K groove ANYTHING

767

s.hk sucks. it’s fucking slow. if you’re gonna use that, you might as well walk up a little and c.lp xx slash.

and i think cammy can super hibiki out of her b&b.
c.lk c.lk c.lk c.lp xx slash, gets hit by a level 3.

a stupid little trick, if you’re getting owned by retarded pokes, wake up RC dodge, run (if you’re in the corner), hop hp (if not)

i use k hibiki also, so excuse me if i’m off.

i think hibiki is better as a battery. why? she doesn’t need meter as often as other’s so. she builds meter good, can use it and guarantee damage (like akuma), and can save it for the next person.

most a-hibiki’s are gonna turtle anyways, so they’re in no rush to use their meter.

768

RC psycho crusher may not be quite as abuseable as electricity but it’s up there. What makes RC psycho crusher so abuseable is not so much the move itself but the threat of it. On Bison’ wakeup it gives the aggressor one more thing too think about. Also while everyone can punish it a degree some can do it alot better than others. Sagat can lv2 into lv1 for huge damage, but what can Ken do? He can lp dp it and watch as Bison safe falls away only to reset the match and start his gayness anew. In many situations there’s no real reason for Bison not to do it. If guesses wrong he eats a fierce(ouch) if he guesses right he escapes[the corner] and resets the match and gleefully builds more meter a screen away to paint your ass like acrlyics. It also serves as a good anti-air and is tricky to jd or parry.

And while Sagat may have some of the best pokes(not the best though, I think Cammy gets that honor) and punishers in the game, getting a good player to whiff something major requires good footsies, patience and execution; something many players take for granted.

RC electricity and psycho crusher don’t require half as much.

769

and pressing down + hp requires even less

770

Blanka has easy mode whiff punishers too. They may not lead to massive damage, but they give him complete momentum of the match. cr RH, Slide. Moreover chars like Blanka, Honda don’t really play footsies w/ you. They either run and build meter, and look to gain momentum of the match once they have meter.

To anyone who believes Blanka, Honda, Sakura, and so on so forth aren’t easier to play than Sagat (when you take execution out of the equation)… needs to look no further than Choi vs Kindevu in Evo or Choi vs Ortiz. When you play a good player, they aren’t going to whiff much. How often do you see Sagat whiff punish shit in those matches? Hell Sagat is busting his ass not to get tripped by Blanka. Sure Choi’s Sagat will get my sorry ass to whiff something and rape me, but against another top tier player, Sagat has it hard as fuck.

Here’s another question to ask yourself, last time you played someone good with Sagat. Someone w/ a good RC blanka, honda. When did you punish their whiffs pokes? Sagat can barely combo into supers vs a Blanka whiffed cr FP. Honda doesn’t even poke. So yea, um, whiff punishing for Sagat is great and abusable when you face someone shitty like Ryu or Terry. It is not nearly as dominant facing most of the top tiers.

Honda beats Sagat.
Blanka beats Sagat.
Cammy loses to Sagat barely.
Guile beats Sagat.
Sakura beats Sagat.
Vega can trouble Sagat but generally loses to him.
Iori can be really annoying to Sagat, but he’s like that to everyone.
Bison beats Sagat if he gets meter… and this matchup is really fucking tedious.
Hibiki beats Sagat in principle… although Sagat may land some random shit in couple matches to win.
Rolento runs like a ho from Sagat and annoys him.

Now don’t get me wrong, Sagat is top tier because he rapes all the scrubs in the game, like Ryu, Terry, Akuma, and Athena. Good for him, but the probability of seeing Terry on a tournament team, and probability of seeing RC Blanka… hmmm I wonder which matchup is more useful for being favorable.

771

I always thought the Blanka vs Sagat matchup was a 50/50 toss-up.

772

It used too be…

On the note of Iori, I think it’s about time we asked this. Why on earth isn’t Iori more widely used? He’s got the best roll ever, a great Guardcrush game, good RC’s, pretty damn fine normals, a command grab, and can be used as a battery (this is good becuase it’s the least crucial spot, ie he doesn’t have to compete with say sagat for anchor) along with a wealth of other things. I used to see him a lot in C and A, and we all know about buk’s N-Iori. So why has there been such a huge decline in Iori users? The only thing I ever heard anyone say was I remember Buk said he was talking to BAS (I think it was Bas, it was around a year ago) about it and they wished RC Scum Gale (command grab) was more reliable. Apparently it’s like only a 60% RC or something, and they wanted to use it to increase his grab range. This can’t be the reason Iori dropped out of existence. So does he like auto-lose to A groove or something :rolleyes:? Cuase I can’t see why he’s not more popular.

773

cuz of A blanka.

C/A iori has no good answers to RC blanka ball.

iori is the best in N but who really uses N groove nowadays aside from like 3 people?

774

UCRollerblader under deus’s sn

i think you guys fail to remember that if you miss a lot of shit vs. fully charged c-sagat you’re goign to eat a LOT of damage.

Cammy vs. hibiki- if slash whiffs it’s not hard to walk up rh super. Cammy s. rh is one of the best pokes in the game, but c-cammy has a lot of problem matchups. cammy has no reason to get impatient vs. hibiki.

Iori isn’t used right now cause it’s not trendy to use n-groove and thats the groove where he really does well. I personally use c-iori sometimes but you lose run and with it a lot of momentum after a knockdown vs. a and k groove since they can just quick get up and reset the match to force you to get in.

A-bison is just cheap cause he can run around build meter and has easy guaranteed setups for the damn custom from hell.

america doesn’t seem to have a good honda but from me thinking about what a good one is capable of, i’m pretty sure he’s the best character in the game and can only be countered by p-groove and possibly a-bison or blanka. He basically negates any footsies you wanna use cause of his busted rc’s. wtf is cammy gonna do unless she’s in p… but thats a whole other monster

my tier list looks as follows

c-honda
a-blanka/bison/sakura
p-cammy
c-sagat
some other boshit

but i’d like to point out that i think p-yamazaki deserves to be up there because it’s really really tough to fight him. If you run away and custom it’s a lot easier but he has this crazy option of just walking forward and pushing rh. Since yama is so fuckin huge it’s really easy to parry most things that come towards him. He also has a good close fast damaging s. fierce so it becomes really difficult to throw him in p. too bad it’s hard to fight against a with p.

775

My USA upper tier list with (almost) no justification:

C-Sagat
A-Sakura
C/A-Vega
C-Honda
A/K/C/S/N-Blanka
N-Iori
C/N-Chun
A/N-Hibiki
A-Bison
S-Athena

P-Groove gets no mention anywhere near the top tier because of American scrubs that try to option select FORWARD and then eat low pokes. That is, when they aren’t dying to random CCs. S-Athena or Blanka are up there since we Americans jump around like its Marvel and eat psycho sword/RC elec/dodge+attack all the time.

776

So cr.fierce is as good as RC electricity and psycho crusher?

Okay.

Cr.fierce was dominating back in like 2002. These days that shit is just a nuisance.

777

Against another Sagat, yes.

But against alot of other shit it’s not likely. For one reason in order to punish a whiff your opponent has to actually play footsies with you. 90% of both top and high-mid characters don’t even play traditional footsies and if they do it’s really scrubby safe footsies(think Vega). If you can consistently punish Vega’ cr.mp in a real match then I want to be your apprentice cause you are probably the greatest SF player alive.

Watch Ricky Ortiz vs Dan on the Evo2k4 dvd. That motherfucker’s Sakura used 2 pokes against Dan’s Sagat literally, and brought Dan to about a 5th of his life. Then had Blanka subsequently come in and clean up.

That nigga Blanka came in with a free lunch card and got the bbq burger chocolate milk shake combo.

778

Maryland tier list/ east cost from what Ive seen…
C /K sagat
A bison
A sakura
C/A/K/blanka

C/K/cammy
A/C/vega
C/chun li
A /rolento
No guile,honda cuz I have not seen any good ones yet…

A is probally the most used groove lots of team BAS/Ortiz
C groove CBS/ no order mixed with vega and chun li
K groove CBS/ usually people sub blanka for kyo/rock/vega/sometimes geese…

2 play P seriously groove… meh

A groove is used the most… followed by… K , and then C.

C groove probally takes the most skill out of the 3 grooves(people all ways messing up C combos).

No customs/small jumps/ rage mode(power ups, 2 level 3’s a round) :sad:

779

nope, its better than rc psycho crusher.

780

I’ll take 80% life off a 2 frame jab over cr FP into super or st FP into super. I’ll take jump MP into CC over cr MK super. I’ll take jump antiairblock CC that does 75% over lvl2 into lvl1 antiair supers that do 45 to 50% at best. Random jump activate > random jump RH by Sagat.

Bison is easier to use than Sagat by a land slide. I use Bison once in a blue moon, and I use Sagat all the time. I have an easier time using Bison, especially when I commit myself to doing absolutely nothing but runaway when I don’t have meter.

Sakura is even easier to use. Her footsies are not exactly complex. And she has just as good a whiff punisher as Sagat w/ meter that does more damage. Activate st RH into CC is an underrated whiff punisher. Not to mention she gets meter is half a second. She guardcrushs pretty quickly. She has j RH as an easy mode jumpin to get in on chars quickly. And when she has meter jumpin early RH is a bitch and half, cuz she lands in time to activate into CC, so you have to respect that. You have to respect her ability to reset her CC. She has just as good a roll as Sagat.

If Sagat were as easy as he is suppose to be at high levels of play. Why does A groove win everything now?