Hmm. I thought it was the punch throw that was harder to break? And that kick throw was easier but did more damage. Did I have it wrong?
punch throws are 3 frames and have a 7 frame window to break.
kick throws are 5 frames and have a 3 frame window to break in addition to doing more damage. A 3 frame window is small enough so that somebody that knows the throw is coming still has a good chance of timing the break wrong… kind of similar to ST (but way less extreme).
the hibiki throw range sucks. if anybody uses maki you can see the difference between her kick and punch throw. thats also an 8 frame difference. since hibiki has a slow walking speed it also makes hibiki’s throws seem weak.
wow…it’s like taking a stab into my heart. thx for the corrections though. i didnt’ really know too much about hibiki so it was good that you cleared it up.
well, i know you’re not going to reply right away because of the the response for the eagle discussion, but i’ll ask anyways to leave it for open discussion.
-so what did you mean when you said “when hibiki’s combo is done right?”(referring to sagat punishment)? do you mean if she does al 5 hits of her BNB? or is there some speed at which you do her BNB that will push her far enough to be safe from tiger cannon?
-K-hibiki can’t be punished because you can JD 1 frame(i think) before you can actually block. right? is this the same concept for P-hibiki?
-when you say bison and cammy can’t punish max range slash. you referring to just doing regular/random(term used loosely) slashes(not the slash resulting from her BNB)?
-the kick throw thing i was talking about, just ignore it i guess. i was just thinking of of possible downfalls that makes A-hibiki NOT in the top tier section. i never really had the throw problem either, i just knew she had shorter range and thought it COULD have some problems in tighter situations? i guess not then…So if all the things i mentioned were false information about hibiki not in top tier(but rather in high tier), then what exactly keeps hibiki from being considered top tier by everyone? is it only because there’s a lack of a large number of A-hibiki players in high tourney placings? or does hibiki actually have big flaws that keeps from being top tier?
ok, got some free time so I might as well finish this up.
Bison is probably the last character you want to be fiercing from long range. One false move and you’re toast. As far as walking forward and hitting low forwards, I’ll have to test that against Bison’s three main ground moves. Since Eagle’s low forward doesn’t have crazy range or anything, it’s also a simple matter for Bison to walk back (his walking speed is faster than Eagle’s anyway), see the whiffed low forward, then punish with mk scissors into the win. Even barring that, by walking up and doing c.mk’s you’re just encouraging Bison to get crazy with random RC psycho crushers. Even if you bait Bison and block it, AFAIK Eagle can’t punish a blocked psycho crusher with anything more threatening than a fierce. That doesn’t even knock down. If Bison guesses right and hits he gets a solid 1500 plus counter hit, while if Eagle guesses right he gets 1300 without counter hit and the match resets.
This match seems roughly even imo. Both characters can counter pretty much everything the other character can do fairly easily. Eagle using counters against Blanka elec is NOT a good thing to do imo. IIRC, Blanka can also just eat the counter and still hit Eagle for free with a combo into super. I’ll have to test that since I don’t have a CvS2 handy here in Texas yet.
This is yet another case of Eagle playing russian roulette by throwing out fierces. He really doesn’t want to be doing them at all in this match really, especially against N-chun (or any n-groove character really) since she can just counter roll and combo for free. Both have a small amount of difficulty stopping each others jumps, but in a battle of attrition on the ground Chun wins. Not only is her money poke better, it also leads to much more damage more often. Eagle also has to jump up and down a lot to prevent Chun from pelting him with RC SBKs.
Again, mp counters are hardly ever worth the risk unless done on reaction. Since you’re generally within half screen of Honda, countering anything on reaction becomes pretty unreliable. One missed counter gives Honda a free level 2, or at the very least a free f+rh sweep. Trying to challenge Honda on the ground with any character besides a small few is hard. Same applies to Eagle. Any attempts to poke Honda with anything are liable to be hit with some RC. If Eagle wants to guess and and try to throw out a counter, he’s running the risk of eating a big level 2. At best, he gives Honda 1000 dmg for the mp counter (which also runs the risk of giving Honda a free super… still have to check on that). Lastly, Eagle doesn’t have a good way out of Honda’s crazy wake up game.
I have extra copies for DC, If you are down at the Austin regional I can give you one.
*I just watched those vids of you and demenion. Your Vice is real good, and that Iori! Damn. Fuck Morrigan, lol.
Buk I know you’re busy so no rush, I’d just like to know what your opinion is on the matter when you have the time.
I am more so reffering to Hibiki in general, rather than just A-Hibiki. I merely said A because IMHO that’s her best groove. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m wrong and K/P are as I can clearly see why that would be so. I’m just wondering what keeps Hibiki from dominating. She just seems to be so dam good, I mean you NEVER have to walk backwards against 98% of the CvS2 cast.
As for Hibiki’s CC’s not doing much damage, that’s just wrong. Also a good Hibiki player knows how to do the reset CC. It’s not some trick to do against noobs, it is a real CC. Who said a CC has to be 10 hits followed by chip damage? Her reset game is what makes her sooooo scary.
@ Doom -
You can’t AC if you’re getting hit ;). Seriously though if somehow she doesn’t combo into CC and instead goes for random activate into GC CC, then you have about 1 second to Counter-Attack before you get reset.
Like I said, I just want to be let in on the weakness’ she has because I really can’t see anything wrong with her.
she doesn’t do too hot against Vega and to a lesser extent, cammy.
with THAT being said TWICE in my first post, i’ll continue.
- A-sakura- last time i checked, A-sakura isn’t bison, and she doesn’t have full life CC’s, so eagle throwing the entire match by pressing standing or crouching rh is pretty inaccurate. and at the range where eagle supposedly plays russian roulette, eagle can jump in with forward. if i wasn’t confident in this matchup, i wouldn’t have said anything. i dealt with RF’s sakura in casual pretty easily, so this match doesn’t scare me. and if sakura guesses WRONG with her jump or roll, then she eats a crouching fierce or RC mp lariat (or CC if she rolled).
and i’ve read your N-iori FAQ, and eagle’s low roundhouse is comparable to iori’s in terms of its application- whiff punishing or catching walk back and forth characters. eagle’s low rh is 44 total frames, iori’s is 49 (eagle’s standing fierce is also 49 frames). so keep that in mind since both of our best characters sometimes rely on risky moves.
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P-cammy- eagle’s crouching forward works better against cammy than you think in terms of playing the footsie game against her rh (not necessarily after a close standing fierce though, you’re right). and if cammy can do standing rh into super, then eagle can do a whiff punishing CC starting with standing fierce. i’d say it’s about the same level of difficulty, and eagle is safe if he messes up while cammy is going to eat some massive damage if she misses her super.
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A-bison- eagle’s crouching forward DOES have deceptive range, and it should be eagle’s main poke in this matchup. you can’t walk up and throw it out like an idiot, but bison doesn’t have any solid answer for it. and i don’t see why eagle not getting the knockdown after punishing a blocked RC psycho crusher is THAT important. counter hit standing fierce does 1560 anyway. you COULD do jab lariat for the knockdown, but there’s no point.
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blanka- i still think eagle wins this matchup 6-4 because eagle doesn’t have to take many risks to win. and you’re right, eagle is definitely vulnerable after LANDING a mp counter. at point blank range (which is the range eagle will absorb RC electricity with), blanka can even retalliate with a crouching roundhouse or standing fierce. if he has his charge, then combo into super is definitely possible. i didn’t know eagle’s counter left him that open. thanks for the advice.
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C/N-chun li- the counter roll into combo thing does work, i never knew that. i’ll be sure to not use standing fierce against the 1 or 2 N-groovers i play in the next year=). but you’ve gotta have a semi-fast counter roll to hit eagle. and whiff punishing eagle’s crouching forward is a bit more difficult than you’d think. just have eagle do random crouching forwards in training mode, then try and punish it. not as easy as you’d think.
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C-honda- i guess mp counter would only be good for headbutts because it would knock down. difficult to do on reaction? yes, but not impossible. and you’re right, eagle CAN be hit with anything from honda’s crouching jab to his crouching fierce (which sets up the scary wakeup game).
why’d you move to texas? hopefully everything is working out for you though. good eagle discussion, it’s nice to see eagle isn’t as bullet proof as i thought (in terms of mp counters), but i still feel he DEFINITELY deserves a spot in the upper mid tier. here’s a good question…
how DO you deal with honda’s wakeup game? you’re going to block a standing jab, then get hit with either a RC 360 or a standing fierce/crouching roundhouse as you try and jump away. any answers to that?
peace
sorry about that comment of hibiki’s CC not doing good damage. what i mean was that it’s not insanely painful without the reset. i’m kind of new to using A-hibiki, so i’ve been having problems landing a reset on people, plus i’ve been using her “throw” cc more than her ground one :/, my opinions about hibiki are just weak opinions, so feel free to correct me about any comments i make for hibiki.
as for her GC cc(i’m assuming you mean gaurd crush CC), you don’t even need the full 1 second to AC hibiki out of her CC, i’m pretty sure most people will AC as soon as the the CC is activated.
also keep in mind that honda doesn’t need to tick the jab into 360, so you need to watch out for the standing rc 360 too.
i think the the best option(so far that i’ve seen) is to use a move that puts you in the air(i.e. DPs), but there’s still a lot of downfall to that tactic, but at least you make the honda player use one more option( blocking), rather than just ‘360 or sweep’.
I find the Bison vs Eagle match about even unless it’s A-Bison, and I play them both and have alot of experience in that match. As for the c.mk’s with Eagle, if you whiff in front of Bison, that’s a free PC, s.rh, or even sweep. Easier said that done, but still not the hardest thing in the world to do. Eagle j.rh tends to trade or beat Bison’s, while Bison can’t jump or Eagle at all, cause or his stupid jump. The match overall is annoying for both IMO. A-Bison though will just randomly knee press and kill you though, lol. As for Honda, he just owns you on wake-up.
[quote=popoblo
feel he DEFINITELY deserves a spot in the upper mid tier. here’s a good question…
how DO you deal with honda’s wakeup game? you’re going to block a standing jab, then get hit with either a RC 360 or a standing fierce/crouching roundhouse as you try and jump away. any answers to that?
peace[/quote]
RC… qcb,kick/fairy jump? :shake:
She may not have full life CCs, but with the right setup and finisher you can do near death damage on an opponent with just one combo using her CC.
Her CC from point blank range does about 10000 dmg (again, averages at 9800, give or take a few 100 depending on how smooth your dps are). That’s actually more than Bison’s CC midscreen (assuming he doesn’t combo into it). Eagle jumps in at Sakura with mk? Free RC jab dp with Sak (which good players actually do, don’t brand it as theory fighter) which leads to the fearsome post DP mix ups. As for beating RF’s Bison in casual easily, I think I proved pretty well in tournament that RF doesn’t know how to fight weird characters. You don’t see me saying Iori beats Bison/Blanka right?
There’s a huge difference on the risk/reward ratio here. For one, Iori is a risky character by nature; a safe Iori is a dead one. Iori also has a LOT more to gain from a connected sweep: it gives him the knockdown he needs to get in and potentially end the match in seconds. For Eagle, the best case scenario for landing a fierce/roundhouse is Eagle gets his one hit of damage and the opponent gets pushed out for another second or so.
Cammy’s rh is 5 frames (actually probably about 6-7 at long range). Eagle activating and hitting fierce is at least 13: 5 for the activation and 8 for the fierce. It’s roughly twice as hard.
I would think walking back, making the mk whiff and punishing with mk scissors would be a solid answer. I still haven’t had a chance to test Bison’s standing mk and hk against Eagle’s mk, i’ll get to that eventually. If you don’t have a good method of discouraging Bison from doing RC psycho crushers, you basically have to throw away your whole ground game and make sure you don’t get hit by them. BTW, has anybody tested whether Bison can punish Eagle’s fierce with a psycho crusher or a scissor kick? That would be amusing.
That’s a pretty vague statement. Blanka doesn’t really need to take many risks in general anyway.
I’m in Texas working at a new job now. I miss svgl. 
As for dealing with Honda’s wakeup game… your guess is probably as good as mine. You’re SUPPOSED to be able to throw his RC grab to make it just like any other 50/50 mix up, but for some reason the timing is ST-esque. Bleh.
yea, c.fierce xx super with k-sagat does hella damage too against sakura, does it mean K-sagat will own her too?
Even I think I can answer this. K-Sagat can’t sit on meter like C-Sagat can and he has to deal with her CC
yes ofcoruse knubbe, but my point is to say that she does need to get her htis in, if not it will just be shoshosho chip and thats way less then hk,hk,hk xx shoshosho
Snakedizzle says: "
She may not have full life CCs, but with the right setup and finisher you can do near death damage on an opponent with just one combo using her CC."
I mean: wtf, with the right setup and finisher I can OCV everyone and not lose life, but thats what youre fighting for in cvs2, that special setup that will get you the win
random stuff i’ll address…
-10000 still isn’t a full life combo. it’s a beastly fucking combo, but eagle pressing fierce or rh isn’t really the russian roulette scenario you’re describing. according to total frame duration, eagle’s crouching rh is faster than any fireball at 44 frames (for comparisons sake, guile’s sonic booms are 43 frames), so isn’t it russian roulette for somebody to throw a fireball at sakura too?
-and FREE RC jab dp sounds like super theory fighter to me. the day sakura can do that shit 100% against every jump in against eagle is the day i quit cvs2. i’ve NEVER seen a sakura player do that at all (like say against sagat’s far jumping rh), and i’ve seen a whole lot of vids from top japanese players and at evo.
-eagle DOES have a good way of discouraging random RC psycho crushers by pressing fierce or doing a jab lariat if you’re hardcore about getting the knockdown (which doesn’t benefit eagle at that range because bison can safe fall).
-i think eagle outpokes blanka and shuts down his entire jumping game with crouching fierce, plain and simple. blanka can’t do much against a competent eagle player except sit there and press crouching fierce or walk up and do crouching rh, which isn’t much.
-i’d miss SVGL too if i were you, but hopefully you’re near stargate. i’ve heard there’s lots of crazy K-groovers in texas, so that should be interesting.
peace
The man is like 8 hours from stargate, lol.
It is. That’s why most characters who are really dependant on a fireball for ground control don’t fare too well in this game. Sure, Ryu can win if he runs away, builds meter and throws smart fireballs… but the odds are often really against him since all it takes is one false move and he’s toast. Guile is a totally different beast. At the range of Eagle’s fierce, if Guile throws a sonic boom you have to wait for it to get close enough to you before rolling. If you do wait till then, Guile punishes your roll for free. If you don’t wait, you just roll into the tail end of the sonic boom and eat it. Of course, some rolls are exceptions to this rule like Iori.
Sawada does it pretty much every time, and Kindebu and Bas (when he used to use Sakura) do it when it’s necessary. You think I’m just making this up? Besides, it’s really not hard at all to do. You should try it.
Which is the whole point. Since Bison gets up for free all the way across the screen he might as well consider it having never have been knocked down at all.
Even though there’s a ton of things Blanka can do like whiff jab ball (RCed even, but it’s really not all that necessary since it trades/beats with most things anyway) into RC elec and the like, let’s just say that Blanka can’t ever attack Eagle. How does Eagle attack Blanka? He can’t jump either, and fighting Blanka on the ground with low forwards requires you to get well within the range of his fierce.