The "Official" SSBM Thread

chain throwing is simply using a certain throw in a certain character matchup to be able to grab your opponent before he can recover. Depending on the character matchup, how long you can chain throw (and if, and what throw you use) changes.

For example, marth can chain throw peach (unless she wants to DI into a tipper fsmash) from 0 to 30% damage. Sheik can chain throw… a whole lot of characters (pikachu and yoshi especially) with her down throw… in fact, she can chain pika and yoshi from 0 to around 70 if done correctly. peach’s upthrow can chain fastfallers (fox, falco, captain falcon) from somewhere in the 30% range to the 70% range (note that this will not work outside of this specific damage range) with her up throw.

not that chain throwing is easy mind you, it requires extreme timing. even if you managed to master chain throwing, you don’t do the EXACT same thing every time. See, while you hold them, your opponent is mashing the buttons and holding the control stick in directions to try to escape the grab itself. more importantly, the direction that they hold while you acually throw them will influence where they fly/bounce. In most cases, they can influence themselves to get behind you and make you turn around, or move different distances away from you to screw up the chain throw. also, you may have to quickly run and jump cancel grabs to continue the chain after the throw (start running in the direction they move, then hit the jump button and immediately after the grab button so you grab before you actually leave the ground - the net result is a slightly moving standing grab animation instead of the slower running grab animation). Also, chain throwing really requires you to be pretty much perfect in its execution to work - a slight mistake and they can either escape or hit you before you can grab them again. It also usually does only about 6-8 damage per throw, so you’ve gotta chain them quite a few times for this to do significant damage.


wavedashing is pretty hard to actually explain well without an example, but here goes. you start by hitting the jump button. however, before you actually leave the ground, you hold diagonally toward the ground and a direction (preferably very close to the horizontal, but enough that the controller registers that you’re partially holding down) and air dodge. Done correctly, you’ll slide across the ground doing the air dodge’s landing animation, which for most characters is faster than their actual dash. you can use this to move around quickly in either direction, without turning around, to set up attacks or get out of the way of things.

^^Thanks.

http://ssbm.captainjack.jp/maji.html

Some good match videos here. Captain Jack’s Doc is a beast.

Sky:

Good find!

I never knew about those.

Are those from TG6?

-Syn
edit
(yep, they are. Matt Deezie’s gonna have a fit when he finds out those are up on the net[if he hasn’t already])

Deezie posted that the TG 6 DVD is going to be a while. He doesn’t want to make people wait till the DVD is done before they can see the vids, so he’s allowed people to put up any vids they might have made with a cam. There’s quite a few floating about.

Deezie The Vid Nazi being lenient? wow… :razz:

seriously, though, some of these need to go to CV.com. Especially one from CJ. :slight_smile:

Is there a thread up on smashboards yet? If not, we need to start up one for this discussion. Not sure if it should go in the back room or not, though.

CM - we basically converted the first srk topic into a discussion about what videos to send. we’ve had very few people say anything, so your input would be welcomed there.

But its my opinion, so dont try to impose your opinion on me. I have seen good marth’s, and good shiek’s, and I have seen good ganondorf’s compete with them quite evenly. I have also seen good players for just about each of those characters you mentioned, and I still think Ganondorf is better. Obviously Shiek is the best character in the game, but I would put Ganondorf in second, then again THAT’S ME.

But nobody gives a shit what you think.

Okay fine. But why?

-Syn

Pichu blows.

But is there ANYTHING redeeming about him in mid-level to high-level play? At all?

The only thing I found redeeming about pichu is that his specials are more damaging than pikachu’s… If you learn to to hit your opponent w/ :d: B while dodging it and not use the smashes that don’t hurt you could really…suck a little less. :lame:

If you win with him you get props.

Oh, and I guess his hit and run game is pretty good too.

-CyniK

I remember a debate stating that Samus was considered by many to be top tier on Final Destination due to awesome recovery and uninterrupted missiles, etc… Has been this accepted by the [majority] of the Smash community? :confused:

Samus does well on flat stages such as FD because there are very few obstacles–if any–to stop her from using her vast array of projectiles the way she wants/needs to. Therefore, she decidely controls the tempo of the match, especially if her opponent has no projectile of his own (Falcon is a rare exception). Also, her ability to recover from anywhere on the stage is aided by the fact the FD has alot of space below the stage, making it even harder than normal to edge guard her when she decides to come in low (like 95% of the time).

Really, any character with a good projectile game has an advantage on this stage (Falco is a scary example), so yes, it has been excepted by the majority.

-SynikaL

Let’s see…

Pichu…

Hmm. Well, if you can SHFFLC his neutral air attack, you can give your opponent something to watch out for (SHFFLC = short hop fast fall l-cancel). It’s not that he’s even THAT bad, he just doesn’t have any of the scary crazy offensive and defensive crap that the rest have. I’ts like a “man among gods” scenerio… but yeah, overall, pichu just doesn’t compare to the rest.

As for the ganondorf “opinion” that’s all well and good. You can believe whatever you want, but if you want to have a decent conversation and have opinions mean anything, you really have to back up WHY you think the big gerudo is second best.

For the samus top tier on FD, I disagree. FD is clearly one of Samus’ best stages (if not the best - dreamland is quite nice samus territory for similar reasons to FD). Sure, it gives her many more advantages, but that doesn’t mean everything. Most characters have means of stopping missiles. (For an excellent match of samus fighting on FD, look for “Wes (Samus) vs. Vidjogamer (Peach) 2” on DC++)

If we were to declare samus “top tier” on FD, she would clearly have to be as good as or better than fox, marth, and sheik. This really isn’t the case. Sheik’s needles still stop missiles at the most convenient angle (and a full pack will stop a charge shot). Marth can advance through a wall of projectiles with his fairs and ftilts. Fox has a reflector and his speed to keep up with samus. It significantly help’s samus’ game, to be sure, but isn’t IMO enough to make her top tier.

I’ve seen that Wes match many times and studied it thoroughly. I have to disagree with you though, Fox’s Reflector is a very poor counter for Samus’ missiles mainly because of missile cancelling. I easily counter Reflectors by constantly spamming missiles if they reflect it I either can attack them during it (wavedashing down smash does an excellent job of ducking on the reflected missle) or feed them another missile into the giant blast which usually breaks their guard = GGPO.:badboy:

Marth’s normals can eradicate missiles but it requires some timing which isn’t easy in hectic matches even among the Smash elite (seen match vids), especially when I could just shoot a big blast or another missile while he’s preoccupied with the 1st one.

Any above Samus player also know to missile cancel you missile in such a way to avoid Sheik’s needles, even if they do an aerial needle attack it won’t be much of a problem, esp. if you alternate between power & homing. Fully charged needles are a different story but is still not a huge problem since fully charged needles are a luxury that Sheiks only get after a lengthy KO.

When I use the missles I think of them as obstacles, not actually damage-dealing tools unless my opponent is truly vunerable. If you make them focus on your projectiles they can’t give their full focus on you. Samus’ sex kick and down smash has digustingly high priority that outprioritizes most of the moves the top tiers have or at least trades with them. Samus’ floatiness yet heaviness also eliminates most of the top tiers’ generic throw and juggle-fests except for extremely high damages.

Lastly and most importantly Samus doesn’t want to freakin’ die. Bomb jumping on Final Destination is not only easy to do but makes her able to stay out and even stall if need be. Samus’ heaviness makes it a challenge to be smashed away even on 120%, and AD Beam Grapple can help quite a bit with the occasional spike or bomb jump interruption by a needle.

I’m not saying Samus can’t be beaten or anything rediculous like that, but if top tiers have to TRY hard to beat Samus (which is usually the case when I watch match vids or play with her) then I consider her top tier on Final Destination. :smile:

I never said samus wasn’t good there.

Fox’s reflector is still useful for reflecting missiles, though most fox players rely on his speed to avoid that situation in the first place. After all, he can shine cancel right after reflecting it, which gives him an advantage. Given that you can wavedash out of a shine, a good fox should be able to get away with this by reflecting and backing off before you can hit him.

Good marth players can pretty easily swat down most missiles and avoid the other ones. If you have a charge shot ready, that’s really more the marth’s fault than anything else… but marth still has plenty of options.

depending on how you missile cancel you can prevent some needles, but in the end the best you can do is force sheik to either jump, duck, or dodge. Given the fear of the everpresent slap, this isn’t necessarily a good thing. I guess most things in that matchup are situational though. Samus should rarely have a chance to charge a full blast, and sheik should rarely be able to get a full pack of needles.

Believe me, I know quite well about using projectiles as obstacles first and damage dealers second. My primary characters are peach and young link, both of which rely heavily on projectiles (peach not quite as much, that’s more dependant on her opponent).

Bottom line, I agree with you about top tiers having to work to beat samus though. Then again, no characters in the top three tiers have any character matchup where someone else can beat them without having to work for it. On FD, samus is still a little worse off than the top three. Also, she’s about dead even with the rest of the “upper” tier in this scenerio as well. Falco has SHB. Peach doesn’t die either and has plenty of room for her setups (as shown easily in that vid I mentioned). Jigglypuff’s air supremacy and survival ability are aided by FD as well. Falcon… no platforms makes running shfflc knees absolutely deadly.

Yes, the level significantly helps samus. There’s no question there. However, I don’t think it’s quite enough to make her “top tier” on that level. If we were going to have that, we’d have to make falco “top tier” on FD as well for his short hop blaster, and plenty of other crap on other levels.

Also, someone who is good at shield reflecting projectiles is going to cause some significant problems to samus’ FD game as well. On my better days, I can send back half of them while blocking 95% of the remainder. Sure, a lot of the time the missle just hits the next incoming missile, but it gives me the opening I need to rush samus down.

Falco has several problems, Samus has very few. Falco also has poor recovery when compared to Samus. Falco’s priority is around average when compared to Samus who’s sex kick and down smash alone outprioritizes 90% of all the normals in the game.:tup:

Eh, just a quick note - Fox can’t shine cancel right after reflecting stuff, including missiles. When he actually reflects something, he’ll suffer a significant amount of lag before he can move again. IIRC, if you take another Fox player and just keep shooting, you can actually stun him indefinitely since he doesn’t have time to put down the shield before the next shot hits…