The Official Poker Thread

General Discussion
1061

I would like a re-raise even more in LHE. There’s no way it is a standard LHE play because it’s even MORE likely that people bet 10s and Js because a 3 bet in Limit preflop doesn’t show as much strength as it does in NLHE. You’re more likely to 3 bet with smaller pairs in LHE to isolate the opponent. in NLHE, you would most likely call or throw away the hand. Your preflop raising range is far greater in LHE than NLHE.

itslog, the point of a flop re-raise is to WIN THE POT. That’s it. If we get 3 bet, then yes, I now agree that we can fold. However, we don’t know that he is gonna 3 bet.

If I raise and he flat calls. I’m not getting check raised. I’m not BETTING the turn or river. I’m giving myself a realistic chance to win the pot on the flop. If we re-raise to $20 and he flat calls, then I KNOW I’m behind, and I can check/call if it’s small enough, or check/fold. that way, we invest a total of $26, for a chance to win the pot at the flop, or see a cheap showdown.

If we flat call the flop, we lose our control of the hand, the hand that we took control by re-raising. We let him easily take the pot if he fires, and if he checks, we are left wondering whether he will check raise us.

However if we raise the flop, we can fold if he 3 bets, check behind him on the turn when he checks, and fold if he bets the turn. Also we get a chance to win if he folds the flop. We also get the control back if he simply flat calls. Now he is the one wondering how good our hand is, and is almost certain to check. Then we can check behind him and get a cheap showdown when he makse a small value bet on the river.

1062

“the odds of him having AA are 1 in 216”

That’s a TERRIBLE analysis! The odds of being dealt AA are low, but you have more information. Based on his betting pattern the odds of him having AA are much much much higher than 1 in 216.

I once folded pre-flop in 7 card stud to a guy showing a 3 because I thought he had 333. Now, what are the chances he had 333? Not good supposedly. But capped the betting. What possible hand can cap the betting in stud with a 3 showing? (And I had an Ace showing) There is only ONE hand. The chance he had 333 was really 95%+. He showed his hand - it was 333.

Betting gives you information. As far as calling for information - let someone else do that with their money.

Anyway I can tell you this: If I am this Finneigen guy your fold was right because I have you beat badly.

I would be surprised if this were a weak semi-bluff. Having gotten this much action from you so far he is probably expecting you to call, meaning he thinks he can beat what you have. If anything he might be overbetting a bit to get you to fold a draw of some sort.

To me that looks like a cross my fingers and hope he calls bet. My guess would be 88 or QQ. At that point where he has gotten all sorts of action he probably figures he has screwed around enough, at this point might as well go for it assuming you will likely call and if you don’t he still takes down a fair amount, while possibly protecting against your draw.

My best guess would be he has QQ or maybe 88 and puts you on AQ. Your hand is very consistent with the way many people would play AQ.

1063

flip, you still don’t seem to recognize that we’re behind of the flop here most times. why do you want to put more money in when we’re behind?

your most recent post shows a good way to keep the pot small when you are beat. but my line also lets us get value from a queen and perhaps JJ, TT. a turn bet tells you you’re behind.

bottom line is a flop raise puts money into the pot when we’re beat, and lets worse hands get away. textbook horrible NLHE play. flat calling gives a deception value to your hand, and you may be able to get value on later streets.

why would we want to “win” this pot? i’m concerned with making the best decisions possible on all streets. if folding is that decision that’s fine. this looks like a fold to me by the turn if he bets. i don’t care about winning this rather small pot on the flop. what if he doesn’t fold because… he has us beat!? then we just threw away 20 trying to push him off a hand that beats us, or the draw that isn’t going away. great.

also lmao, i like how your first sentence, last paragraph quotes everything i have said on this matter so far. now you’re advocating folding to the 3bet? i knew you’d see the light.

also we don’t need control of this hand. that implies we are getting better hands to fold. i got news for you, that ain’t happening here. flat calling the flop allows you to fold most turns and get away from this hand at minimum cost.

also good point margalis, there’s a slim chance a random opponent has AA or any other hand for that matter, but we can see that chance increase if we do some hand reading.

1064

I know we arne’t getting better hands to fold. HOWEVER, there’s a chance we might get them to slow down. Say someone has A-A and decided to get fancy by just calling your min raise, he will call the raise on the flop. then slow down. There, you have your small pot that you wanted. Taking control of the hand makes people slow down their hand, hell, it might even get a hand like bottom set to check to you.

As for throwing $20 trying to push off a hand that beats you, then what happens if we call and he checks? We value bet, and since the pot is 23.50, we are most likely betting around 15+. Then we get check-raised, boom, we spend the same amount of money, while having LESS information than if we check-raised.

I can advocate tot he 3 bet, but not to the flat call, like I’ve said before. If we are behind most of the time, then we should just fold to the flop bet. However, you don’t advocate to folding on the flop bet. How come? If he has us beat, then we’re beat and we know on the flop, if he doesn’t, we’ll still know because he throws his hand away to a raise.

What stops a person from betting with JJ on the turn if you just flat call? You dont show a lot of strength by flat calling, he can easily put you on A-K and fire again. A flat call just gives you more reason to fold, when raising gives you just a little higher chance to win the pot. Flat calling is WEAK. It’s a weak play that gives zero information and gives you more reason to fold.

The bottom line is, the raise is to give yourself a chance to win the pot, at little risk. If you get re-raised for your stack, then fine, you fold and move on. But if you flat call, you have another tough decision once the guy checks. If you are so sure you are beat, then why would you value bet the turn? You would get NO value from J-J and 10-10, and you have a 50-50 chance that you are good on the river bet. But if your opponent is smart like you want to give him credit for, then you know he has only two reasons to bet the river.

a) to get value
b) it’s the only way to win the pot.

So you are stuck and you have to make a tough decision which could’ve easily been avoided if you raise the flop.

1065

i would have called… he probably put you all in with pocket 5’s.

but he probably would have served you by catching a 5 on the turn, coz that’s justice baby.

1066

It wasn’t an analysis. And the odds don’t changed based on betting patterns. Thats the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever heard. People can bet with any 2 cards in order to try and take the pot.

1067

Some good discussion still going, i like it.

For the record, after paying more attention to this guy after that hand i saw him bet equally aggressive or all in with Aces twice the only hand i saw him all in with. However not much of a read as i didn’t stay for more than 20mins after.

Some subsequent information was gained on these hands:

This 1st 1 looks like horrible play on my part in reflection I’m certainly not fond of KQ even when soooted but i felt really strongly that he was stealing/ missed a draw (as had i but in position), the check confirmed that somewhat, obviously could be trapping but i dont think he’s hit anything. Varying the sizes of my raise pre flop is someting i rarely do and realise its is donkish so no flames for that please i can flame myself there lol

— HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to rewrew [Qs Ks]
_victoria: folds
Finneigen: calls $1
gumytigri: folds
rewrew: raises to $3
Ruthenium: calls $3
retus: folds
corsario: folds
Aqua79: folds
USBport: folds
Finneigen: calls $2
----- FLOP ----- [2s 3s 3h]
Finneigen: bets $3
rewrew: calls $3
Ruthenium: folds
----- TURN ----- [2s 3s 3h][8c]
Finneigen: bets $8
rewrew: calls $8
----- RIVER ----- [2s 3s 3h 8c][6c]
Finneigen: checks
rewrew: bets $20
Finneigen: folds
Returned uncalled bets $20 to rewrew
rewrew: doesn’t show hand
rewrew collects $31 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $32.50 Main pot $31 Rake $1.50
Board [2s 3s 3h 8c 6c]
Seat 1: gumytigri folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 2: rewrew collected $31
Seat 3: Ruthenium folded on the Flop
Seat 4: retus folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 5: corsario (button) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 6: Aqua79 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 7: USBport (big blind) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 8: _victoria folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 10: Finneigen folded on the River

And another hand that shows he seems to know when he’s beat, although he could have just been bluffing with nothing.
I could have and probably should have bet smaller on the river but i figured he hit an ace with the size of his turn bet and would call anything i threw at him.

---- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Gregk22 [Kh Ad]
snif: folds
Zaichik: calls $1
Gamer26: checks
Finneigen: calls $1
Goofather: calls $0.50
rewrew: raises to $5
Zaichik: folds
Gamer26: folds
Finneigen: calls $4
Goofather: folds
----- FLOP ----- [6c As Ah]
rewrew: checks
Finneigen: bets $4
rewrew: calls $4
----- TURN ----- [6c As Ah][Kc]
rewrew: checks
Finneigen: bets $20
rewrew: calls $20
----- RIVER ----- [6c As Ah Kc][8s]
rewrew: bets $38.69 and is all-in
Finneigen: folds
Returned uncalled bets $38.69 to rewrew
rewrew: doesn’t show hand
rewrew collects $58 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $61 Main pot $58 Rake $3
Board [6c As Ah Kc 8s]
Seat 1: Gamer26 (big blind) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 2: Finneigen (button) folded on the River
Seat 3: Goofather (small blind) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 4:rewrew (big blind) collected $58
Seat 5: snif folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
Seat 6: Zaichik folded before Flop (didn’t bet)

1068

good point. however, even though we have some info by the time it’s on us on the flop, it’s not strong enough to warrant a fold. there are some hands in his range which we should fold to (AA, QQ, 33, 88.) hell, technically the best play against the flush draw is to go all in for a huge overbet and charge him the maximum if we don’t want him to hit. but we can’t know for sure he’s on the flush, it’s only one of the hands in his range, therefore we have to balance our action to reflect the best action for each hand in his range. calling keeps the pot small when we’re beat. calling may get us value from weaker hands. calling technically hurts us against the flush draw but so what? it’s not like we can see exactly what he has, we’re doing our best to guess.

well, we’re assuming he’s not totally braindead so hands like JJ, TT, and any Q will slow down. also i don’t care about winning this, and any other, pot ever. i care about making the correct decision on all streets. sometimes the info tells me i need to fold. by calling the flop and reevaluating on the turn we have just as much info but for $10 less, and we can’t get blown off our hand when he 3bets with the flush, (which would really suck, we’re even money with it and his aggressiveness payed off and he moved us off the best hand.)

i’m not completely positive we’re beat on the flop. like i said, a whole bunch of Qs and underpairs and the flush are in his range and we beat those. i would value bet the turn if he checks because it tells me he doesn’t like his hand anymore. will we get value from an underpair? it’s a stretch, especially if a K or A comes off. but i think we have to bet, to charge him the max for the flush draw, and get some nice value from AQ if he will pay us off.

i’m really not interested in seeing a river with this hand however. either we are far behind, and our betting has scared a better hand into slowing down, or we can’t get any more value out of a worse hand. it’s sort of a paradox. i want to get in a value bet on the turn, but naturally that means we get to see a river. any decision on the river is going to be tough so i find myself checking most cards if we get there.

now, two things can happen when we raise the flop. 1. worse hands fold and we can’t get any value from them on the turn. 2. better hands stick around and now we’ve inflated a pot in which we’re behind.

also two things can happen when we call the flop. 1. we keep the pot small when we’re way behind. 2. we can get value from at least AQ on the turn.

and as for the flush, it looks like we’re screwed with any option. he’s probably going to 3bet all in if we raise and we have to fold. and if we call, we’re giving him favorable odds to draw and again perhaps move us off the best hand with a turn check/raise.

1069

rewrew, as for your new first hand. preflop i like. some opponents will limp way more often than they should with hands like AQ, AK in early position. putting you in a bad spot if you both make a hand. but, if you feel this opponent is weak and you can steal from him on any flop he is likely to have missed, this isolation raise is good. i always make it 4x BB in a cash game as a rule, especially in low stakes, where it can shape up people’s starting requirements and gives me a better hand reading ability. you may even consider adding another BB for each limper.

if you can get it heads up with position on him, this is a fantastic spot. almost always continue bet on the flop. you’ll win the pot so often with nothing it’s amazing.

now, for the flop. “raise the flop” lol, because you are simply crushing his range here. ideally, he will be able to fold to a turn bet with a hands like 44-99 which are in his range. he will also fold to a raise with unpaired high cards on the flop. looks like he is just trying to steal this pot from you, so you have to steal back. and should he have something like TT, JJ, etc. you have outs with two overcards and the flush draw.

calling the flop and making your move on the turn is a bad move tho. he can’t think that 8 helped you and he can’t think you slowplayed a 3 so he’s going to call bullshit on a turn raise and perhaps move in with a straight draw or flush draw and we have to fold. our semibluff is not going to add up in his mind.

and as played i check the river. i guarantee your high card is good here, unless he has an ace. your river bet didn’t move him off a pocket pair or 6 or 8. if he had those he’d check/call river simply because you haven’t represented an overpair or a 6/8 with a better kicker.

and the second hand. preflop i like. i try not to build a pot out of position with AK, AQ, etc. as a rule, but you have to narrow the field somehow. good job, you got it heads up. now the flop check is fine, provided you also do this with JJ, QQ, KK. if he knows the only time you’d check this flop is with an A, then you’re going to have a hard time getting max value. now you’ve got him to bet, that’s great. the turn is where i go for the check raise and here’s why.

you’re going to have a hard time getting value with a monster on the river out of position when you’ve played the hand by check/calling. any river bet is going to scream value bet, so he’s going to fold most hands. he’s not going to think some raggedy 8 helped you, so he has to assume you slowplayed the nuts.

also a turn check/raise is good because other times you’re going to do that with a wide range of hands when the action is different. sometimes it will be a semibluff, sometimes the nuts, and sometimes a complete bluff. keep him guessing.

also keep notes on this opponent that he will do the betting for you, it’s good to know.

edit- oops, forgot about the other player in the first hand. well i still raise the flop and the analysis would be different if he sticks around but he didn’t tho.

1070

I’ve pretty much said all I needed to say. So this is my last post on it.

Although, a flush draw can either 3 bet, or flat call. I’d be more inclined to say he will flat call if he doesn’t have at least Ad-Kd.

A flat call doesn’t really show any strength, that’s why it doesn’t give information. A hand like J-J can see the flat call and think “hmm…he might have Ad-Kd”, and if a blank comes off, then he fires again (Don’t forget, it’s a MIN-re-raised pot, so he doesn’t have as much info as you think). Now we’re forced to fold. If a diamond comes off, he checks, and we cannot value bet a scare card in case HE is checking the flush. So then once he sees you check, he might value bet the river, and now we have to fold. It’s not easy to get value off J-J, because it’s most likely that he’ll try at least one more time (if he’s agressive), or check/fold if he’s tight.

The mistake that you are making is that you assume we will always get value from hands like J-J and A-Q if we just call. But because of scare cards, most of the time we will end up going check-check. Then there are times when the J comes and we lose. We will not get value from A-Q if a Diamond or a Q or an Ace flops. Thats around 25% of the time. Then there are other times where a person might be tricky enough to bet the flop with A-Q, then check-raise the turn thinking that you are trying to steal the pot. Either way, a hand like A-Q can easily blow us out of the hand, on the flop, on the turn, or the river. Calling the flop doesn’t make it any easier to get value.

Ninja Edit: Anyone wanna play the 30k on FTP? Just got 6th in last night’s double stack for $480, so I feel like gambling.

1071

Have you ever actually played poker? Serious question.

If someone bets in in front of me pre-flop, I call, someone behind me raises, the original bettor calls, and I re-raise all-in, what are the chances I have AA? 1/200?

More like 1/2.

The odds DO change based on betting patterns. Betting is information. At any given time someone could be bluffing but the average player bluffs rarely.

If you really think your opponent could have any two cards at any time and you refuse to take any betting into account as information you might as well push all in every time you have mid-pair.

In the example above if I was the original bettor what should I call with? According to you I should probably call with A3 because 3 handed A3 is statistically likely to be the best hand.

Except that my opponents have shown strength and realistically A3 is the worst hand here 95% of the time. Sure statistically the chances the other guys have AA and KK is the same they have 27 and 38. Good luck with that strategy!

The best way to lose money in poker is to bet when you shouldn’t and call when you shouldn’t because you’ve convinced yourself the chance the opponent has X hand is statistically low.

Very simple scenario: guy in first position goes all-in and has me covered. I have K8. What do I do? K8 is better than the statistically average hand. I call! Brilliant!

1072

well nice to see you’re backing down. i’d rather you’d admit you’re wrong but if that’s your defense then ok.

the flush draw is pushing. trust me. he wants to see all 5 cards and maximize his fold equity.

JJ can do whatever the hell it wants. JJ isn’t the only hand in his range. i’m not basing all my actions around what if he has JJ.

you mention scare cards making it go check check. there are more non scare cards then scare cards to come. we can and will get value from worse hands from a lot of opponents.

good. let a J come. like i said i can’t base my entire action around one hand or two cards in the whole deck sliding off. apparently you can. you must be good.

AQ is not blowing us off anything. that’s simply chip spewing. at least the flush has at least 9 cards and maybe overcard outs against our range. find me a person who is check/raising us with AQ here and i’ll show you an idiot.

1073

Don’t get it twisted. We are saying the asme thing over and over. Everything has been said. Are we playing heads up?

1074

First and foremost, from the information thatr you’ve put here.
You suck.

I agree with everything flip said though.

Best idea I’ve ever had was to start investing money. I want to retire when I’m 25-30.

Anyone play any wsop qualifier/geta seat yet? Wouldn’t mind meeting the people behind the names.

1075

Who sucks?

Only tourneys I can satellite to is non-usa ones.

1076

that guy posting his hands
i dont see any plays that i thought were really good

why is that?
crazy that party has satellites out before stars, stars is known for trying to produce the wsop winner…

ive heard a few people say the steps tournament for a seat is weak.

1077

I’m 19.

1078

haha oh
my bad then

1079

None were intented to be good plays, just wanted some feedback on a hand and followed up with some additional analysis on a certain player. That and the fact that i’m a relatively new player and probably dont make that many of what you would consider a great play.

thanks for your analysis of the further hands itslog apprecaited as always. :tup:

1080

yes we are saying the same things over and over. it doesn’t change the fact that you’re wrong. and i have virtually no deepstack heads up experience. most anyone would be a favorite over me heads up.