Good points made donald, i was thinking he had AA or QQ but what you mention about preflop play yeah i guess AA isn’t that likely, i busted him on 2 occasions shortly after anyhow on a semi bluff and when my AK made a boat.
WSOP - It would have been an expensive call just to get information, and at $.50/1 full ring i’m not in any danger of getting blinded off, unless you thought the hand was in a tournament.
I call everytime there. Reason why is that you SHOULD be willing to lose your whole buyin at that state. If you aren’t playing 15-20 times your max buyin, then you are playing out of your bankroll and you risk going broke in the long run. You also risk opportunities like this, where he could easily be pushing with Jc-10c or Ac-xc Or even Ac-Q or A-Q. If you are afraid to lose your buyin at a time like this, you shouldn’t be playing NL that high. There’s too many hands you can beat, and too little hands that beat you.
Also, whats with the minimum raise preflop? Thats ugly. Pop it to $10 at least next time.
WSOP is right, I’d of called instantly.
the odds of him having AA are 1 in 216
Flopped set i dont know the odds but its insanely worse.
He could of just had AQ or JJ even.
Disagree.
The main mistake in this hand is not raising more preflop. If you had given a much larger sized re-raise preflop, then laying down here would have been a much easier call. As it is, you’re losing to AA, QQ, 33, 88 or a 2 pair combination. Also his bet line has AdXd as a distinct possibility and you’re only marginally ahead of that.
The point is, with a min.re-raise preflop, you don’t have enough information here. With that said, look at the hands he could be pushing on you with and the chances.
AA = 10/90
QQ = 10/90
ace high flush draw = 53/47
red kings = 48/52
AQ = 80/20
JJ = 90/10
TT = 90/10
99 = 90/10
88 = 10/90
33= 10/90
Oversimplified on the pair vs. pair to ignore suits. If he has a flush draw to go with an underpair, it’s closer to 86/14. And if his ace is a diamond on AQ, it goes to 76/24. Anyways, just looking at the possible holdings with no other information, folding is marginally the right decision, but it’s very close. For the record, I probably fold here.
If you had re-raised big preflop, folding to an all in would be unquestionably the right decision because it would almost eliminate his odds of pushing AQ or JJ-99.
I like to avoid hard decisions like this in ring NL holdem. Big re-raises are important just for that reason. Online NL especially has a lot of set peddlers who’ll see flops with any pair for anything less than 1/12-1/14 of their stack/your stack (depending on which is smallest). Against people who don’t lay down big pairs (as is often the case online), this becomes a hugely winning play. Larger re-raises are your best weapon against this type of player and will make your post-flop decisions with big hands much easier.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
i think the odds of flopping a set is 7.5:1
another way i thought about the hand was…he went all in…which means he is PROTECTING HIS HAND AT THIS POINT or BLUFFING…both makes sense…if he had QQ, i think he would’ve slow played it.
Flush and straight draw, Im re-raising if I had trip queens to protect against gutshot. Also I’d add J-10 (straight and flush draw into the range)
Good read and quite the wakeup call. i might add that in the past i’m calling this raise with little hesitation, this time i chose to lay down though and is the reason i posted it, looking back it was a weak pre flop raise, $.50/1 is a relatively new limit to me and i clearly need to pay more attention to the size of my bets/ raises.
I dropped down to my comfort zone $.25/.50 and took onboard somethings that have been said, i think the problem was i’d got the tight part of my TAG game but the aggression has ben lost somewhere, i adjusted my game and turned $100 profit in a 30min session, thanks for input
hmmm assuming its 10 handed
Im not sure but i think it’d be something like
32 - 1 / 2 = 15.5 to 1
Pretty good odds to bet against.
Actually you’re both wrong, the odds of JUST flopping a set are 8.3 to 1. Flopping a set or better (ie. a boat or quads) is 7.5 to 1.
preflop- bad. make it at least 9. also it was mentioned that the opponent could not have aces because of preflop play. AA is most def in his range. utg raise and call of a reraise preflop. how many people at these stakes 3-bet preflop with anything in a heads up pot? not a lot in NL anyway. i think viscant was the first to bring it up and it’s a good point, making a larger reraise can help your ability to read his hand. for example, if you make it $10 to go, i don’t see many people calling a reraise out of position with AQ. therefore it is much less likely he is pushing with AQ on the flop since that’s no longer one of his most likely holdings.
now as for the flop. please! we need stack sizes! was his 3-bet all in? did he have you covered? so now he leads into a preflop reraiser on this type of board. i think we can rule out any two pair hand on this flop. it’s so rare that an utg raiser will have 83, q8, q3 that it’s just not something we should consider. now he makes a lead for less than 1/2 pot into you. he can do this with AQ, 33, 88, QQ, pair under QQ, AA, KK, diamond semibluff. now here’s a spot where i’d like to flat call. right now, the only hands you’re beating that are in his range are the pairs under QQ and you’re slightly ahead of the AdXd semibluff. remember, he’s showing great strength by leading into on this flop, since you reraised preflop. my gut says he wants to 3-bet this all in on the flop, and guess what… he does.
now, you’re not going to get any more money out of pair under QQ unless he’s a real donk. and you have an opportunity to get away from the hand if certain cards come on the turn. what you want to do is keep the pot small if you are already beat and also so you can get away from it on the turn. if a diamond comes and he bets, fold as quickly as possible. you are beating nothing at this point, you are even behind to KhKd because of his flush draw. if a total blank comes and he checks, try to pot bet or even overbet all in (we need stack sizes!) you probably will get a call out of AQ and even JJ, TT at these stakes. if a total blank comes and he bets, i’d evaluate the size of the bet and fold/push accordingly. if he’s betting by the turn, you’re only beating AQ. he can still be on the nut flush draw, but the times he has you killed with AA, 33, 88, QQ make it look like a fold.
now, as played you were 3-bet on the flop. i going to assume this bet was his all in, therefore it’s not possible to 4-bet. his 3-bet range is: AQ, AA, KK, QQ, AdKd semibluff (perhaps even AdXd,) 33, 88. oops! looks like we’re beating almost nothing.
even the fishiest of donks probably don’t 3-bet here with AQ. looks like a fold to me. my gut says he has AA or 88. will he raise 33 utg? maybe. will he 3-bet this flop with QQ? maybe. but i think it’s AA or 88 imo, leaning towards AA.
o btw, with a good read on this player, we can narrow his holdings down to 1 or 2 hands. reads are gooood.
It’s .50/1 NL no stack sizes displayed in hand history. He has approx $100 i had approx $80 so he wasn’t all in but had me covered
There are times to flat call a flop. That’s not one of them. It’s a draw heavy board. Flat calling allows a hand like 10-10 or a flush draw to hit. You want to flat call on rainbow and non-straight boards. It’s only 1 out of the 2. So you need to protect Kings there.
there are times to charge people for draws. this is not one of them 
we want to make sure his draws don’t get there but we also want to keep the pot small because it looks like we’re behind. we need to balance the fact that he may be semi-bluffing and the fact that we may be creamed. my line allow us to do that.
oh and beyond that, we are NOT calling the 3-bet. do you agree?
How can you tell that we’re behind? because of a $5 bet into a pot of 13.50? That $5 doesn’t mean anything. We need to raise here to find out where we are at. Why would we want to keep the pot small? Because you’re afraid of a set or a flush draw? Calling the first bet is just idiotic passive play. There are times to be passive. Once again, this isn’t it. What happens when you call the bet and an ace flops. How about another Q? How about a J? You won’t know what to do. The $15 raise gives important information. A flat call gets you nowhere. You don’t get any information if he bets again.
Depending on how the person plays, your 3-bet range is flawed. J-J could do it. 10-10 can as well. There are too many hands we can beat to fold. If we lose here, we reload. If you are too afraid to reload then you are playing too high for your roll.
did you read my first post? it was filled with reasons why the $5 bet is trouble for us. raising the flop is chip spewing. JJ, TT, etc. are going to fold. this is a reraised pot. we’re only putting more money in when we’re behind. worse hands are folding, better hands are calling, and apparently 3-betting.
calling also allows us to get more money on later streets from worse hands. if the turn is a blank and he checks, we can make a nice sized value bet here, which AQ will definitely call at these stakes, and maybe JJ, TT also.
and yes we want to keep the pot small because we may be, and probably are, behind. we can’t use x-ray vision to see his hand and go omfg, flush, protect my hand. we have to put him on a range and take the one action that balances our best actions for each hand in his range.
now, before the turn i’d like to say this is a tough spot. that’s why a proper reraise is in order preflop because he could very well have all sorts of kickers with his Q if he indeed has one.
we aren’t going to like a whole lot of turn cards. but raising the flop is not going to stop them from coming. (unless he folds JJ, TT, etc. and one of those came.) we’re forced to check an A, Q, diamond (if he lets us check.) now we face a big bet on the river with no info. if he hits one of these cards we’ve given him a big sized pot in which he drew out on us, if we weren’t already behind on the flop, or preflop.
you seem to forget this is a reraised pot. the utg player wants to get money into the pot after somebody reraised him preflop. that show a lot of strength. i’m all for giving up this pot on the turn unless certain cards fall and he checks. folding IS an option, overpairs aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.
also there’s no way his 3-bet range includes JJ, TT. that’s just insane. also i covered in my first post the hands we are and aren’t beating on the flop. you can’t just say, “call, we’re beating so many hands.” and i have, and i hope rewrew has, no problem with reloading at any time. but that doesn’t mean we go and spew chips.
and to be strictly results orientated, we were three bet on this flop. he’s not doing this with QT, QJ, KQ, AQ, JJ, TT. sorry guy, we were behind on the flop just like i said.
but of course, if he’s really terrible his 3-bet range could include like A2o, which just makes this hand impossible to analyze.
edit- oops, looks like i said AQ was in his 3bet range in my first post. for the record, i don’t think it is.
What raising does on the flop is prevent bad draws and bad pairs to draw out on you. The $5 could mean anything. It could mean a value bet because you’re way behind, or how bout a blocker bet to prevent YOU from betting? How about a bluff? Flat calling here does NOTHING. All it does is give more cards to crack you. he could be betting with 2-2, spike a 2, bang your stack is gone. Or he could bet with j-10 suited, hit a card, and then you’re forced to fold. NOTHING good comes out of seeing a turn card (unless your opponent has K-Q and you spike the case King). All that happens is that a hand that you can beat only check/calls at best.
how is my stack gone when he hits a 2? i’d like to play you heads up if you get stacked everytime you have an overpair. i’m giving this opponent a little credit and saying the flop bet is not a bluff or blocker bet (further proved by the subsequent 3bet all in.) that’s just chip spewing on his part. if i have say 45h i’m not bluffing here, and neither are most observant opponents.
my main point is that we are most likely behind here on the flop. again, this is further proved by his 3bet. he’s check/calling if not check/folding with garbage like JT. give this opponent more credit. i can’t think of anything stupider than trying to build a pot out of position with a gutshot in a reraised pot.
seeing a turn card allows you to get away from this hand. seeing a turn card also allows you to value bet when he checks.
A few things to clean up here.
–Calling actually DOES accomplish something raising doesn’t. With it being virtually 50/50 on the flop, there is no way you can chase a flush draw. In fact a flush draw would want to get all his money in somehow on the flop. If you factor in folding equity and the fact that it’s a coinflip (or BETTER!) against almost any possible hand for a reraiser to have.
If you call the flop and make your move on the turn, you will make a chaser make a mistake. On the flop, there is no raise you can make given the stack size to make chasing a mistake. Application of the Fundamental Theorem of Poker here.
–I think the read people have here of the raiser “protecting his hand” or potentially bluffing is catastrophic. Examine the line on the flop. A small bet into a reraiser of less than half the pot. This is screaming out “please don’t throw me in that briar patch, Brer Fox”. Villain is asking/begging to get reraised here so he can punish with an all in.
What this move is trying to do is commit you to the hand. This is a good play if you have a monster hand since pot odds make marginal calls easier.
–Small pot vs. big pot/Small stack vs. big stack. Honestly, at this level of NL online, I think KK is a small pot hand. You are very rarely going to want to be in a big pot with this. Again, this is read dependent, but how often does someone push TPTK or less? It can’t be very often.
This is why I like calling the flop a little more than raising. Your hand strength is not that great. Against the 3 premium hands (AA, other KK, QQ) you are behind to all 3 of them. Why do you want to play a big pot when you’re behind to the most likely holdings? Again, this would be an easier decision with a bigger reraise to make SURE you’re up against only another premium holding.
Also, this is a big difference between online play and live play. Stack sizes relative to BB. In a casino or a NL game with smaller stacks, you’re going to get all in here. Or in a tournament. But in a cash game, there’s no need to play a big pot with just kings here.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Pretend this guy never did 3 bet. It’s really hard to just say, oh im behind as soon as you see every bet. That’s not smart. I’m saying you get the most information by re-raising the flop. Then you can fold on the flop when the 3 bet comes if you are so sure that you are behind. However, there’s no way you can just simply say that boom you are behind just because he bets 40% of the pot when the pot is MIN-re-raised. if we bet 10, and he leads out, hmm, then maybe we can think we are behind. However, we didn’t show much strength preflop cept for a measly min-re-raise, which so many donkeys use online with any garbage hand. A 3 bet maybe we can think about folding I will give you that, but I still don’t see why flat calling is a good move here, considering how little information we have.
And if you want to play heads up, tell me the site and stakes. I will play you for any amount of money.
Also, you can’t chase out flush draws, but you will chase out underpairs and gutshots, which gives you a better chance to win if he flatcalls, gives you a chance to win if he folds, and a chance to run if he re-raises. However, by flat calling, the decisions can only get harder. Take my 2-2 example. A 2 falls on the turn after you flat call. He checks, and you value bet. It might be a little harder to get away from the hand if he min-raises you on the turn, or if he pushes. Or if a diamond falls, and we get check raised, surely we know we aren’t any good. What I’m trying to say is, if we get check-raised on the turn, it’s gonna be really hard not to pay him off if it’s a small check raise, and we might lose as much as we would’ve raising the flop, if we value bet the turn.
One more thing to consider, we can also make this a small pot if he flat calls. Just because he bets that little, doesn’t mean he will re-raise every time. if he flat calls, we can go check-check and keep it small. If he flat calls and bets the turn, then we know we are probably behind. The thing is, unless you have a damn good read that he will value bet his monsters so that you will re-raise and he can 3 bet, it’s not enough to just say “look, a bet when i re-raised, we’re behind so lets just call”. The risks in calling are way more than risk in raising his flop bet.
viscant, i like your first point. that’s why calling is good here against the semibluff flush draw. this is a textbook LHE play is it not?
second point is good also. this is what i keep saying. i’m taking this line of leading 1/2 pot with 33, 88, QQ, AA almost everytime. it’s simply the easiest way to get all the money in with the best hand against an opponent who will overplay an overpair.
third point about the 3bet is good too. just as i said, how often is he 3betting tptk?
also, flip, what i am saying is we are probably behind on the flop. if we aren’t, we’re not too far ahead of the flush semibluff. you’re right, we can’t just say we’re behind. but most often, we are. nlhe is a game of imperfect information. he can have 3h9c here for all i care. but the action dictates that he doesn’t. it’s called hand reading.
what hands are calling a flop raise that we beat? none. not even AQ if this opponent has half a brain. what hands are folding that we beat? all of them. that is textbook bad nlhe play. all your line lets us do is get pot committed when he checks raises our asses on the turn. and letting him draw to two outs with JJ or something is not as important as controlling the pot size. and again, if he has such a hand we might get some money from him on the turn when he checks.
what hands are happy that we’re building the pot when they’re wayyyy ahead? all of them. getting info here on the flop is not as important as not playing a big pot with this weak holding.
and as for getting checkraised on the turn. if we raise the flop and he calls we’re checking behind on the turn almost every time. but if we bet, i’m folding to any kind of action. i’d like to think he wouldn’t call the flop raise with AQ. it’s certainly possible, but then again if he’s that stupid then this hand is not worth analyzing. so anything else in his turn check/raise range has us crushed except for a diamond semibluff, (in which case he calls the flop to check/raise the turn all in or bluff the river.)
also for the record, in tournament play this would be a very different hand, depending on stack sizes.